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Hey folks, a game shop that's looking to sell GW and tabletop wargaming stuff has finally, after 20 years on and off in this hobby, finally decided to set up in my sleepy little town.

I'd like to support their choice with my wallet, and just seeing all of those GW goodies in a shop on my way to work has incited some severe nostalgia. And I'm kinda interested, but there are caveats these days. I have a weekly D&D game and multiple children, my time is not what it was. I can't be going down to a shop (when there's no pandemic, of course) to play 3-4 hour games. Even 2 is pushing it probably.

I saw there was a new edition, and that combat patrol is the 500 points tier and it seems more supported that ever. But... is it? When I google combat patrol I see all the stuff from 5-6 months ago pointing out the existence thereof, but not much about how it has been received and if people are playing it. I don't seem to find a lot of battle reports at this level. What is your take on it? If I never played a bigger game (except maybe sparingly the incursion size) would I be missing out massively?

Should I try kill team instead for a similar time span? Is it alive and kicking even?

Necromunda looks great but I'm getting all the RPG I can handle in our D&D game so I'm not as interested as I might have been a few years ago.

Oh, what about Crusade? I know I said the involved campaign of necromunda was probably too much... but well-supported narrative 40k? How could that not be intriguing.

I guess there's age of sigmar, how does that stack up against 40k? I'll admit I never really looked into it...like at all.

Thanks for your kind consideration folks, I'm really excited to have a game shop in town but with my limited resources I'm trying to find the best angle at which to approach the hobby again.

I would recommend crusade play, if you had a good dedicated group and you wanted a game ti play with 40k minis.

the_scotsman wrote:
I would recommend crusade play, if you had a good dedicated group and you wanted a game ti play with 40k minis.

The problem is Crusade matches can still be quite long, right? OP's issue is points and length of matches.

OP: I don't hear a lot about combat patrol. If people are going that small they usually do kill teams which may be more your speed (still GW, still GW minis, smaller points, fewer models, like, a Custodes army in kill teams can literally be 2 models). When people do small traditional 40k events, it's usually about 1,000 points which should still be fairly fast. 1,000 point matches have mission support in the Grand Tournament book along with 2,000 point matches. So my advice is to look into kill teams and what is called Incursion (1,000 point matches).

Well, if you can't spare even 2 hours on average? Then seriously none of these games are right for you.

My thoughts on 500pt/Patrol games:
They're ok-ish, but I generally prefer larger. Why? Because at 500 pts I rarely feel like I'm playing an "Army". And it's often difficult to use many of the larger, cooler models at this lv. Either you just can't (or practically can't) or you can & it'll completely warp the game.

Crusade:
As written it starts out small using the Patrol missions. Eventually it ramps up to larger, more experienced forces. Wich is the point. So if you never play larger games you're certainly missing out on part of it.
Here's how our initial Crusade stage seems to have played out:
1)Very short, totally unsatisfactory feeling, games that took about 30, maybe 40, minutes & seemed to take longer to set up than to play.
2)The same as #1, but double the time because of new players dealing with rules minutia (the game is full of this crap).
3)Slightly better games between experienced players @ about 45 minutes - an hour + time to set up/tear down. Still not enough stuff on the board to prevent something swingy from making the later turns of the game little more than wasted time.
And then there's some minor paperwork in tracking unit advancements etc. Nowhere near the detail of Necromunda etc though. (THIS is the highlight of the Crusade system)

Our "normal" games of either 40k or Sigmar of around 1500-2k pts typically take about 2.5/3hrs (+some set up/tear down depending on location).
This is playing at a casual pace, dealing with all the rules minutia (more in 40k than AoS), and a few interruptions as we don't play in a silent vacuum (at home or at the shop). I suppose we could play faster, but that's not really our goal....

Small scale AoS runs about the same as small scale 40k. There's a bit less rules minutia in AoS though.
Sigmars "Path to Glory" - starts off small like Crusade, plays about the same time wise, grows over time but can be WAAAY more swingy initially.

Warcry tends to be very quick as far as games go, maybe give that a look?

Kill team will be getting more support Q1 2021 barring Covid delays like those that just dropped the hammer on Grandfather Nurgle.

Crusade seems to be about "growing" a collection, and building a narrative behind it. If you want to stick to "small" games, it's probably not for you.

500 point games can be quick and fun, but you will be missing out on the bigger toys "for sure" and people tend to want to expand to at least 1000 to 2000 point games.

Kill Team is great! Easy to get a couple of matches into 2 hours once you have the hang of it. Low cost entry, relatively speaking. Most factions can build a decent list from one to two boxes of models.

As to how well it's going... depends on your local. If the store is just starting up, a "beginners league" of Kill Team would be a great idea as a gateway drug to get customers into 40k "full scale". I enjoy playing it.

Its not so much that I'm diametrically opposed to playing larger games, I just don't see myself having the time especially often.

Crusade really seems like my jam in some cases, though I wouldn't be able to keep up into the 2000s probably.

kirotheavenger: Warcry is kind of the AoS equivalent to kill team? I feel like I'd lean towards kill team as it potentially uses my 40k minis and there are some pretty good generic fantasy skirmishes that I'm already slightly invested in.

PenitentJake: Kill team is getting support, eh? That's good, I hadn't seen anything recent pop up about it in my searches. It is certainly a consideration.

In terms of what is available locally, there is literally no scene that I'm aware of. I know some wargamers exist in town but the other shop in town is a MTG affair with some D&D leanings, no wargaming going on.

That said, I could probably help shape the meta somewhat if I get in on the ground floor. I was considering offering my services in providing terrain and scatter (more enthusiasm than I have room to house it at home anyway).

Perhaps the way forward is to test the waters with the shop owner, grab the KT and 40k books sooner or later, and start to work on a couple kill teams while letting codex releases inform my progress on a 40k army...which I should expect to see to at least 1000 points.

I mean... lets be honest, if I stay interested I'll no doubt build a bigger force that 500 pts... its just finding the time

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I've had my head buried so far into D&D books lately its been a little disorienting looking at the 40k stuff again.

However/whatever you end up playing, welcome back to the games.

ccs- Cheers

I would highly recommend AGAINST picking up 40k right now. The books are error riddled, GW changes things on the drop of a hat and has the gall to make you pay for point adjustments.

I would suggest looking into Kill Team instead for small scale games, or if you're going to be playing 2k level games, try Apocalypse at 100PL/player.

I'd strongly advise sticking to Kill Team until you decide if you like the hobby or not. 40k is much more complicated, expensive, and focused on pushing the tournament game at the expense of casual play than it looks like on the surface. If you are a competitive person who likes to push the power envelope, keep up with the tournament lists, and constantly fiddle with your minis/loadouts/builds to squeeze more advantage out of them, 9e 40k is fine. If you want a casual hobby you can drop in/drop out of, keep using the same minis over a long period of time, or just throw minis on the table and play without needing to do a lot of analysis/planning, 40k is in a pretty bad place right now.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I would highly recommend AGAINST picking up 40k right now. The books are error riddled, GW changes things on the drop of a hat and has the gall to make you pay for point adjustments.

You say this like it's some shocking new development & will potentially change in the near future. Neither is the case.

@BCB I've been around on an off since 3rd edition, none of this is new, though perhaps it is a bit sad.

@AnomanderRake I've been in the hobby for nigh unto two decades, just took a break. 40k has always been an awkward superposition of competitive and casual, it really comes down to your friends or local meta.

@ccs seems about right.

I appreciate the caution though, it can be a pretty bleh situation some times.

Removed - Please do not advocate piracy

I think that 500 points tier is popular depending on your location. If the scene is new with a newly opened store you might be getting a lot more people just building up.

I think the new edition is designed to play quickly at that level, but they also have Kill Team for that in particular.

I guess playing in the store is a big part of the draw for you? I kinda checked out of Wargaming for a few years but am getting back in with Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy, which are from the One Page Rules guys. Very stripped down and fast playing version of 40K and Age of Sigmar that is closer in spirit to the older editions but supports all the new models and stuff. Also has alternating activations which I just think makes for a better game.

I really like it but am having to build everything for it myself because it is not widely played, and that might not be something you want to take on. It is easy to introduce non-wargamers to, though, and I have had a fairly okay time teaching people how to play. But people into 40K would likely see it as the discount brand or inferior and not want to play I guess.

And it is nice to see you back! I always enjoyed your blog and so on when you used to post here a few years ago. Went through a few years off myself and am similarly getting back into sci fi wargaming.

@greatbigtree, yeah 40k has always been a hot mess. IDK if that is so much a part of its charm or if it's just something we all put up with, but it is definitely a persistent state

@Da Boss yar, i probably need to focus on more official stuff from this angle. I do love me some of the smaller wargaming options though. I always wanted to try that modified Inquisimunda but never got around to it and my original 40k enthusiast friends and I are all out of touch.

I'm tentatively back! I liked keeping up with everyone's blogs back in the day but kids and other things have really eaten up all my time. I need to see what everyone has been up to.

Trying to get back into GW stuff when I'm still holding down my weekly D&D game AND foolishly resubbed to WoW is probably a little mad. But eh, here we are

 GrimDork wrote:
...@AnomanderRake I've been in the hobby for nigh unto two decades, just took a break. 40k has always been an awkward superposition of competitive and casual, it really comes down to your friends or local meta...

Oh, definitely, but I've been in the hobby for fifteen years and in that time I've never seen a better competitive 40k environment or a worse casual 40k environment than right now.

Fair, sorry if I came off as rude or ungrateful. I appreciate your outlook as someone who's far more steeped in the current meta than myself


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's interesting, as I might have assumed that crusade would bring more fluff and less competition, but it would seem from your report that is not the case.

8e/9e Codexes have attempted to fix failings in statline/datasheet design with the card-game elements (stratagems, psychic powers, WTs, relics, etc.) to the point that if you don't play a carefully optimized selection of models designed to use your card-game elements as efficiently as possible you're frequently kind of screwed (depending on Codex). Crusade is a narrative campaign system that requires you to play a tournament-optimized list to participate.

My experience is different. I consider myself casual these days. I’m done chasing that dragon, and I’m finding that list building is the same as always. There have always been power combos that people chase. The current casual meta is much more kind than 7th, for example. Or 8th.

One still needs to have a coherent force to have a decent chance. That hasn’t changed. The “deckbuilding” elements have always been there. Stratagems (needlessly) add a new resource management element to the game, even if optimal uses are pretty obvious most of the time.

The game is still fun, despite the use of stratagems. I played competitively through 5th edition, and enjoyed it greatly. I enjoyed the first half of 6th. The latter part of seventh edition made me want to quit and never come back. I stopped playing mid-8th and am currently having the most *fun* playing this game than I have since 5th.

It’s not a battle game, in my mind. That phase of 40k seems to have passed. I really look at it as a heroic action game now. And it is a fun Heroic Action game. I’m happy, when I look at it that way. People that are unhappy with 40k as a “Battle” game should try looking at it from a different perspective. There’s lots to enjoy in this edition.

 greatbigtree wrote:
My experience is different. I consider myself casual these days. I’m done chasing that dragon, and I’m finding that list building is the same as always. There have always been power combos that people chase. The current casual meta is much more kind than 7th, for example. Or 8th...

I don't know that I agree. 7th had its share of game-breaking stuff, yes, but you could construct a much safer "casual" environment really easily with a relatively short ban-list (CAD only, no D-weapons, reroll if someone happens to get Invisibility). 8th/9th has masses of stuff that doesn't look game-breaking until you put it on the table and see the combo, or stuff that's incredibly disruptive in a small number of matchups, or stuff that isn't broken in the competitive mission pack but wrecks casual games. The skill bar required to actually build a soft list when someone says "hey, I just want to play a relaxed casual game, can you build a soft list?" is way higher than the skill bar required to play a tournament list.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Crusade is a narrative campaign system that requires you to play a tournament-optimized list to participate.

Would you mind elaborating this part a bit further? I'm not particularly competitively minded and I was hoping Crusade could be a nice platform for casual campaigns.

 BertBert wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Crusade is a narrative campaign system that requires you to play a tournament-optimized list to participate.

Would you mind elaborating this part a bit further? I'm not particularly competitively minded and I was hoping Crusade could be a nice platform for casual campaigns.

Now I'll admit, I ten to exclusively play competitive, but Crusade seems like it would be as competitive as your opponents make it and nothing more.

I think it kind of comes down to your meta, who you have to play with. If you have to go to a shop and those people want to be competitive, you're going to have to fight fire with fire or have a bad time, is what it sounds like.

If you have a group of board game friends or a D&D group that's branching out into war gaming I imagine you can set the pace wherever you want it and expect everyone to throttle their competitiveness to whatever degree is agreed upon. Just like always.

It is somewhat disheartening to hear that crusade isn't bringing softy storytellers out in droves though.

Yeah, but that's just 40k in general. Judging by his post, I assumed Crusade was particularly egregious in this regard.

Fair. I mean, if you play in a competitive shop and that's how they're playing crusade... you'd not only have to make a tough list but you'd also have to try to min/max your unit advancement and what not.

 BertBert wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Crusade is a narrative campaign system that requires you to play a tournament-optimized list to participate.

Would you mind elaborating this part a bit further? I'm not particularly competitively minded and I was hoping Crusade could be a nice platform for casual campaigns.

My experience of trying to play any 40k army in 8th or 9th in any context requires you to build around stratagem/combo-play and build optimized lists of only "good" models to avoid getting wiped in a turn or two by accident. The basic structure of the Codexes and rulebooks, completely independent of play environment/mission rules/whatever, is very lethal and very unforgiving to the point that if two players wander up to the table with a box of minis they like one player can and will blow the other off the table in a couple of turns. You need the kind of system mastery that you'd expect to need to play tournaments just to work out if two lists are going to have a functional game or if one's going to table the other quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GrimDork wrote:
I think it kind of comes down to your meta, who you have to play with. If you have to go to a shop and those people want to be competitive, you're going to have to fight fire with fire or have a bad time, is what it sounds like...

That very much isn't the problem; the problem is that 40k is so badly-balanced and focused on the card-game that two random new players with a random assortment of just minis they like will probably end the game with someone tabled on turn two or turn three. You can be in a friendly environment, you can ask people to build soft lists, they can make an honest effort to build a soft list, they might have no idea how to build a tournament list at all, and you can and will still find yourself having lost the game during list-building.

Huh. Well, good to know.

Again, I have a much different experience. The stratagems are rules, just like any other. A bunch are specific to a unit, or even members of a unit with specific weapons!

You get to know the stratagems like any other rules. I take a Riptide. If I don’t want it to burn itself to death, I need to use the self-repair stratagem as often as I need to.

I need a certain target dead. If I can wound it, I can spend 3 cp to give everything else targeting it +1 to wound. If I keep my Fireblade near my Firewarriors, they get an extra shot at close range. If I use his markerlight I can spend CP to give it d3 extra marker lights, and try to get 5 marker lights on the target so I reroll 1’s to hit, hit on a 3+, and wound on 2+ (probably).

But I do that every single time. Once you know the order of operations, it’s just following procedure. And that takes all of reading the Codex rules twice to see that wombo-combo. Write yourself a cheat sheet.

No edition of 40k has let someone walk up to a table with a box of stuff from a yard sale and have a decent chance of winning. You’ve always had to plan a decent army to have a decent chance. There are a couple more rules in the equation.

Balance? Not enough codices out right now to know for sure. Doom and gloom sells, but the game is really in a good place right now.