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Hey guys, first post on here. I usually browse r/40klore, but I'd like other 40k fans opinions on the topic.

Let's assume for argument's sake what Malcador says in First Lord of the Imperium that the Heresy was planned and everything went according to plan. Half of the traitor primarchs and their legions are wiped out. Malcador and E are fine. Magnus is now sitting on the throne powering the Astronomican. What next?

We know that with the Imperial Webway's completion, the Astronomican would serve no more purpose. I remember reading that the Emperor would essentially fire the Astronomican directly into the Warp, kind of like a psychic rpg, to wipe out the Chaos Gods.

Xenos still exist. Orks are still around. I would assume he would mobilize the remaining loyalist Astartes and Primarchs in one final assault against the remaining Xenos in the galaxy, purging them.

Then what? Malcador says that the Imperium is not for the post-humans, but for mankind. We have still loyalist primarchs and their legions around. The Emperor saw himself as a tool, one that eventually mankind would no longer need after he guided their psychic evolution to completion. The same would apply to the loyalist primarchs and their legions. According to Malcador, the legions and their sires are conquerors' tools, and nothing more.

I don't think even the loyalist primarchs would be too thrilled about the Emperor and Malcador telling them that they needed to be purged as well... unless there was some universal suicide within the Imperium. Where the Emperor would kill himself along with the remaining loyalist primarchs and their legions, kind of like one final pact where they all agreed to do it together. They had all achieved their purpose. The Imperium no longer needed these tools. The Emperor leaving Malcador in charge of the Imperium. And humanity can finally take it's place as the ruler of the galaxy.

I'm trying to think of a way where another civil war would be prevented, where after the Heresy, humanity wiped out the remaining Xenos in the galaxy, wiped out the Chaos Gods, and the Emperor's dream could finally be realized as peacefully as possible.

And for argument's sake, say the primarchs were more than just conquerors' tools. That they had a purpose post-Heresy in the Imperium. Something a lot of people like to bring up, and with good reason at that. That they were to be essentially the governors of the Imperium. For how long though? That's the question. How long would they be around?

As I said above, like with Magnus, once the Imperial Webway was complete, what would be his purpose?

And someone like Guilliman would definitely help with Imperial structure and order, but at the end of the day, he wouldn't be there in a position of authority forever. Whether he had a purpose, it definitely wasn't permanent, as Malcador made clear that at the end of the day, the Imperium is not for the post-humans, but for mankind.

Well, even if the Heresy was planned? It almost certainly came far too soon.

The main issue the Imperium faces right now is enemies on all sides. Had the Great Crusade continued, the whole face of the modern galaxy would be changed.

Craftworld Eldar would likely be extinct, and Orks arguably more contained, as serious concentrations would be been tackled, and greatly reduced in number. And if all ‘Traitors’ had been wiped out, rather than hiding in the Eye, they’d have the resources for fairly thorough purges of areas where Orks begin to thrive.

Essentially, 40k as it stands is a Galactic Stalemate. Nobody has a clear upper hand. The Imperium has the right mix of numbers, technology and organisation that, given the chance, they could overwhelm any one of their enemies. But, because there are so many fronts and so many foes, it’s currently all they can do to hold their current territory.

If the Heresy went to plan, then we can reasonably assume the threat of Chaos would be more contained, one way or the other. This could mean the Imperium had the resources to hunt down and eliminate Craftworlds, and certainly squelch the Tau entirely.

That would really only leave Orks, Necrons and Tyranids - yet with fighting forces freed up? They might be in a better position to engage Hive Fleets - because it’s during their interstellar voyages that the Tyranids are most vulnerable, as they simply can’t replace losses until they make planet fall, and the more you weaken the fleet, the harder it is for them to consume planets/systems.

Orks will always be some kind of threat, mostly because of their haphazard “get in the warp, see what happens” approach to space travel. But I think we can reasonably predict areas such as that ruled by the Arch Arsonist may not exist, again because the Imperium would have more resources to go in a do serious damage. Because yes, Orks get harder the more they fight - but they need to survive those fights in the first place (look at what happened post Ullanor. Back of Orky Organisation broken. From there it’s a matter of putting out bush fires, not towering infernos).

Necrons? Altogether trickier. But again, if they can concentrate on them as a threat? Far more manageable than in present continuity.

How can you wipe out the warp, when it is just sentient emotions? Surely a new one would just begin, or everyone would lose their emotions? Who knows, either way, the emperor was a fool if that's what he was planning.

I can see it closing the Eye of Terror, or at least reducing its size.

Seal that and the Maelstrom, and Chaos loses quite the foothold/beach head in real space.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
How can you wipe out the warp, when it is just sentient emotions? Surely a new one would just begin, or everyone would lose their emotions? Who knows, either way, the emperor was a fool if that's what he was planning.

A more psychically attuned humanity aware of the inherent dangers of the warp with a stronger Emperor guiding them, with warp travel a thing of the past, This would dim the powers of the warp. Arguably The Warp gods would become a nuisance rather than a real threat.

The plan is a good one but yeah, the Emperor isn't the one to complete it, if the heresy novels are to be believed he is part of the problem.


If the grand plan worked then the remaining legions would have been thrown into massive wars of attrition in order to thin their numbers.
Magnus' T Sons would probably be left to garrison the web way and study its ways.
I wonder which other legions would be saved from a prospective cull in the gleaming future of the Imperium?







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I can see it closing the Eye of Terror, or at least reducing its size.

Seal that and the Maelstrom, and Chaos loses quite the foothold/beach head in real space.

You would have limited incursions into realspace.

Planetary problems could arise but they would be insignificant to the Imperium as a whole

Ultramarines would likely survive, based on the premise that Ultramar is the Emperor’s ideal made manifest.

They’d be the Legion most predisposed to being guardians rather than warriors.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ultramarines would likely survive, based on the premise that Ultramar is the Emperor’s ideal made manifest.

They’d be the Legion most predisposed to being guardians rather than warriors.

Salamanders live among their families on the world of their birth. As such they are one of the more humane chapters. They could adapt either as guardians or find a non-combat niche. Alternately, they might self-exile to remove superhuman influence from a human galactic hegemony. Although, if humanity went through a "psychic dawn", and all became psykers, then even marines might merely be a different type of post-human and could still coexist.

I'd imagine that the Emperor and Malcador's plan for the Heresy was for the legions to wipe each other out, or at least weaken each other to the point where they could be finished off by the Custodes.

The plan was an Imperium of abject slaves with an unchallenged Emperor ruling over his adoring subjects.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
How can you wipe out the warp, when it is just sentient emotions? Surely a new one would just begin, or everyone would lose their emotions? Who knows, either way, the emperor was a fool if that's what he was planning.

Presumably the Warp was a more contained and peaceful place before when the Eldar were in charge. how potent would Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch be in a world where Eldar had essentially cured all disease, no military challenge existed to them and no scheme against them could succeed?

I feel like the majority of the remaining loyalist primarchs would be pretty satisfied with their roles in establishing the goals of the GC and their success in stopping the Heresy. A lot of the Primarchs kinda went on their own way because of the loss of guidance from the Emperor and battlefield losses like in the cases of Rogal Dorn and Guilliman. With the Emperor up and about, a lot of them don't have to be depressed and guilty about the loss of the Emperor and frankly some of them would like having less front-line general roles. Given that the Emperor seems to have knowledge of threats like the Necrons, I doubt he would completely eliminate the Legiones Astartes, especially given the galaxy-wide mythos that would be surrounding them from what was written by the Remembrancers compared to how localized the knowledge of the Thunder Warriors were. Given how tied to their own gene-sons a lot of the Primarchs were, they would also be rather difficult to convince them to agree to the removal of the Legions, even if the Emperor could do it by force.

The Imperium would be a lot more stable and progressive than it is in the mainstream continuity. Besides pruning the Ork threat once in a while, I would assume the major threat really would be mainly the Necrons and the Tyranids. The Tyranid threat would be handled a lot better than it is now, where it's mainly scorched earth tactics that is buying time for the Imperium. With all the freed up resources and 10k years of the Emperor guiding humanity's psychic growth, I think humanity would have a much better chance of handling the Tyranid advance. Necrons IMO, are a much bigger threat, and would require a proactive approach to digging up and attacking tomb worlds that I'm not sure the Emperor would be able to effectively prosecute.

A few thoughts.

First, the Imperium would always need the Astartes, the threats posed by the Universe are too great to give up your best weapons. They would stick around but just not participate in the affairs of humans too much.

Second, Primarchs get bored. They are demigods who go around the Universe fighting for the glory of their Creator. While rebellion would not be fresh on the minds of the Loyalist ones after beating back Horus, something else might. Eventually they are going to wander off and do something different.

Predestination is a theme in 40k that doesn't get discussed enough. Malcador thought the Emperor would survive the Heresy, but he didn't. Sanguinus knew he was going to die, but he didn't seem to know the Emperor would. These facts matter when thinking about what would happen next. It's the tragedy of the Imperium, not knowing how your creations are going to be abused.

Surviving the Horus Heresy, for the plan of the Emperor and Malcador to prevail, means they've achieved some kind of reliable prescience. They know what is to come and how to plan around it. They would be operating in the wake of the Heresy, where many worlds rebelled at the end of the Great Crusade. The Imperium's actions would be predictable.

First, they would need to return to the Great Crusade and establish dominion over all the worlds of Man. The remaining Primarchs would know better than to rebel, their loyalty proven but also having the example of Horus to consider. I imagine Gulliman would become the new Warmaster and lead a great campaign to eliminate all remaining rebels. It would last hundreds of years.

Second, the Emperor was working on the webway. Having access to that technology would have profound implications for the Imperium. Instead of an Age of Darkness, what would emerge would be something like a scientifically-advanced feudal society with immense industrial capacity. Because the great distances of space can be navigated quickly and reliably, in the absence of Chaos, the culture would lurch forwards on a path of discovery and advancement aimed at removing other threats in the Universe.

I imagine, acting with knowledge of the future, under the cover of a Second Great Crusade, with the option of more reliable intergalactic travel, the Imperium would devote itself to ridding the Universe of the great threats. They would hunt the Necrons in their lairs and destroy them before they can emerge. They would go after the Tyranid Hive Fleets and eradicate them thousands of miles from planets. They would launch fleets to pursue the Craftworlds and put an end to the Eldar once and for all. The Tau would be a blip on their radar, Orks would simply be considered an inconvenience, others Xenos species would be managed and cultivated in an ecological sense.

To accomplish this, the Emperor would probably cook up something more advanced than Astartes to carry out his will. I don't know what form it would take, but technological advancement would continue under his rule and put humanity into a position where it can manufacture even better weapons to take on the great threats. Biological weapons that neuter biomass, EMP devices that end Necrons before they can awaken, Exterminatus missiles that can travel the webway to detonate at the center of a Craftworld with no warning. There would need to be something to fill the void afterwards, something that can prevent other species from asserting their own will. Sentinels of Humanity, guardians made for a purpose that can't rebel against the Imperium.

From there... who knows? Shame Malcador and the Emperor were off in their plans.

Would Magnus be on the throne? I know that was the plan but then it changed to the emperor opening up the webway for humanity. So with current canon I assume that’s what would be going on.

New golden age of humaity

mrFickle wrote:
Would Magnus be on the throne? I know that was the plan but then it changed to the emperor opening up the webway for humanity. So with current canon I assume that’s what would be going on.

New golden age of humaity

I think the point was Magnus would be on the throne until the Webway was in a suitable state to replace warp travel. Until you reach that stage, you still need the Astronomnicon.

And good to see Hecaton is as rational as ever when it comes to the Imperium - as noted, it's stated repeatedly that Big E didn't want to be worshiped, and even that he never wanted to become Emperor in the first place, preferring to work behind the scenes until the Unification Wars.

On the Tyranids:

The Hive Fleets were trillions of light years away from the Milky Way and most likely would not have come across it - ever - had not a very specific event happened during the Horus Heresy. So you can probably take them out of the picture entirely if things had gone differently.

If the HH was part the big E plan for the empire then it would fall in line with the Cabals premonition of what would happen if HH didn’t succeed. I.e humans would take over the galaxy and ultimately file chaos to the point at which chaos overwhelms all of humanity and then the galaxy, as all other races are gone or too small to do anything about it.

This vision of the future was so bad that the alpha legion supported the Heresy for humanities own good.

Visions of the future can be very fickle though.
Perhaps the chaos gods deliberately showed those visions to the Cabal to make sure they were on-side for the heresy.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Visions of the future can be very fickle though.
Perhaps the chaos gods deliberately showed those visions to the Cabal to make sure they were on-side for the heresy.

If the alpha legion were duped into turning on the emperor then I think we would have had that pay off by now

Emperor saw himself as a tool, one that eventually mankind would no longer need after he guided their psychic evolution to completion. The same would apply to the loyalist primarchs and their legions

You just need to look to real world revolutionaries and "protectors" and such. Once the original crisis is over, they somehow always find a reason to stay in power. Their work is never done, and their nation/people/race always need them...I doubt emps would behave any different ,like all dictators he'd never see his "creation" as perfect and mature enough to handle itself.

mrFickle wrote:
If the HH was part the big E plan for the empire then it would fall in line with the Cabals premonition of what would happen if HH didn’t succeed. I.e humans would take over the galaxy and ultimately file chaos to the point at which chaos overwhelms all of humanity and then the galaxy, as all other races are gone or too small to do anything about it.

This vision of the future was so bad that the alpha legion supported the Heresy for humanities own good.

""Premonition"" made by humanity-hating aliens that declared humans need to be all killed. For reasons. Gee, there sure is nothing awfully convenient about this! Wanna buy this bridge on Terra I just found?

Aliens so incompetent their own allies decided they need to die, and funnily enough, they failed to premonite that bit. They do sure sound reliable, eh?

Cronch wrote:
You just need to look to real world revolutionaries and "protectors" and such. Once the original crisis is over, they somehow always find a reason to stay in power. Their work is never done, and their nation/people/race always need them...I doubt emps would behave any different ,like all dictators he'd never see his "creation" as perfect and mature enough to handle itself.

Wrong. He had power to enslave everyone for like 60.000 years and never made any use of it. Only when the whole species was literally dying in irradiated hellholes for the last few millennia with no way out he decided enough is enough and acted - I wonder why, if he was so power hungry? Why not enslave everyone from the start? Why follow the road that will see every human just as strong as Emperor is, demoting him from superman to regular mook? Why create 20 beings to share power with when they are only threat in the whole Galaxy to you? Why make rebellious Malcador your second, not some loyal bootlicker? Why enlighten humanity when keeping it as it is and allowing worship makes your rule infinity times easier? Literally nothing of this makes any sense if Emperor wanted to be a dictator, if you judge him by his actions, instead of demented propaganda of warp-sniffing imbeciles who betrayed humanity to literal lords of hell, that is...

 Irbis wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
If the HH was part the big E plan for the empire then it would fall in line with the Cabals premonition of what would happen if HH didn’t succeed. I.e humans would take over the galaxy and ultimately file chaos to the point at which chaos overwhelms all of humanity and then the galaxy, as all other races are gone or too small to do anything about it.

This vision of the future was so bad that the alpha legion supported the Heresy for humanities own good.

""Premonition"" made by humanity-hating aliens that declared humans need to be all killed. For reasons. Gee, there sure is nothing awfully convenient about this! Wanna buy this bridge on Terra I just found?

Aliens so incompetent their own allies decided they need to die, and funnily enough, they failed to premonite that bit. They do sure sound reliable, eh?

Depends how you decide what is canon and not. Remember, the aliens hated chaos far more than they hated humanity. Humanity was a threat that could be realistically dealt with.

 Irbis wrote:

Cronch wrote:
You just need to look to real world revolutionaries and "protectors" and such. Once the original crisis is over, they somehow always find a reason to stay in power. Their work is never done, and their nation/people/race always need them...I doubt emps would behave any different ,like all dictators he'd never see his "creation" as perfect and mature enough to handle itself.

Wrong. He had power to enslave everyone for like 60.000 years and never made any use of it. Only when the whole species was literally dying in irradiated hellholes for the last few millennia with no way out he decided enough is enough and acted - I wonder why, if he was so power hungry? Why not enslave everyone from the start? Why follow the road that will see every human just as strong as Emperor is, demoting him from superman to regular mook? Why create 20 beings to share power with when they are only threat in the whole Galaxy to you? Why make rebellious Malcador your second, not some loyal bootlicker? Why enlighten humanity when keeping it as it is and allowing worship makes your rule infinity times easier? Literally nothing of this makes any sense if Emperor wanted to be a dictator, if you judge him by his actions, instead of demented propaganda of warp-sniffing imbeciles who betrayed humanity to literal lords of hell, that is...

Thats the other problem with writing books about the horus heresy and making them be canon: the emperor now comes across as being the ultimate human galactic . He's not a good guy in any way, which leads to: how did he get in power? Well he has immense psychic power. Yeah. Its like looking at star trek as an adult: the federation definitely aren't the good guys and neither is the emperor. He's just the last emperor of all emperors humanity has.

Hmm, if we go by malcador's version of the plan, maybe some of the loyal primachs say "Hey, no way!" and rebel, fleeing and taking their legions with them.

The souls of the betrayed astronomicom and the murdered primarchs form a new vengeful spirit in the warp dedicated to destroying humanity in revenge for what was done to them by the emperor.

The eldar in their death throws from being exterminated by the imperium create a new god of destruction to scourge humanity from existence.

Then the nids arrive, and the necrons wake up.

So, endless war.

I think what would have happened is humanity would have been restored to what it was before the Age of Strife, with the threat of the warp greatly reduced by the use of the human webway and a more psychically balanced human race. The Astartes, as useful as they were, were a one-use tool. The Emperor never had any othe plan for them. He would have probably pruged them like he did with the Thunder Warriors. Had any other big threat loomed around after that, he would probably just made new ones. But from I can see, he really seemed to restore the pre Age of Strife human culture. As for the warp, let's remember that it was the Old Ones creation of the Aeldari species and their war with the Necron that turned it in the present chaotic and hellish thing it is in the 41st millenium. The ensuing wars, conflicts and machinations of the Chaos Gods ensured it would stay that way. However, if the Emperor succeeded in his plans, the Chaos Gods realized they would be deprived from their source of power and ultimately be starved to death. All in all, the galaxy would have ended under the dominion of a human civilization governed by a body of hig As for h lords and whose technology and mastery of their psykers would have tamed the warp. As for the Emperors and his Astartes, they would have faded into myth.

It seems inconceivable that the loyalist Primarch didn't see the end of the Great Crusade coming, there are various references to the fact they did in the Heresy series.

Horus turning was engineered , he was pretty much in a unique position and then gathered to him others who were unhappy with the future they saw coming.

It's entirely possible for the Emperor's creations to be content simply enforcing the peace rather than waging wR - the Custodes pre and post Heresy do this, with any conceivable threat met with overwhelming force and very few recorded instances of anyone breaching security : there's about four examples in the fluff and Jaq Draco may not be canon anymore, if it is he had powerful psychic aid.

In response to What Next for the Legion Astartes...

The Roman Empire is credited with the first "Professional Soldier"- a class of citizen that was paid, equipped and trained by the Roman Government. They had no other skills except soldering and fighting. On the battlefield, for the times, no other army could stand up to the might of the Roman Legions. They steamrolled across Europe, Northern Africa, the Middle East, and even into Western Asia. The problem was, what happens to the Legionaries when they come home? The only skills they have are as soldiers, but there are no wars. It was a huge problem, and one that exists today in modern armies.

This is why I like Dorn so much. Of all the Primarchs, he was the only one to ask "What happens after the war?" Only Guiliman and Sanguinious had an answer. The rest of the Primarchs ignored the question, never thought about it, or assumed there would always be a need for the Legions and eternal war. Dorn wanted his Legion to be builders, so that when the fighting was done, they could rebuild. They could be the architects and carpenters of a new Imperium.

If the Emperor were not killed then a huge amount would change. Don't forget a big part of the modern setting isn't just that its at a statelmate, but that a big part of that is the massive division of power within the Imperium and the huge administration issues it has to suffer; especially as they shun "intelligent computers".

With the Emperor never having fallen there is every chance that the Imperium would have had a greater chance to advance its sciences and develop new technologies and not just have to reply on the cast offs from history coupled to a religious view on Technology that makes change and development not just near illegal but also sacrilegious.


Those advances alone would have lad to vast changes. An Imperium with its resources and a more awakened science and, most importantly, a united single governing power that directs it would have been a powerhouse.




It's recovery after the Horus Heresy would have been swift; its reconstruction and organisation vast and its potential far less shackled. The Imperium we have today is shackled by religious dogma; war; poor education; civil unrest; poverty Xenos and threats on all fronts. It's as much a threat to itself as the threats from without are.


Take that away and you've an Imperium that would have conquered the Eldar through weight of numbers; which would not have "forgotten" to purge the Tau worlds; which would have realised the threat of the Necrons sooner and likely purged their worlds whilst still in stasis; would would have had a good chance at purging Orks form worlds and containing any outbreak, giving them little to no room to really get a further foothold.

Tyranids would still remain the greatest threat from space, however with a more unified approach. the Tyranids would have to face the powers of united Galaxy rather than a shattered Imperium beset on all fronts by intergalactic war; where each race power checks the other with continual battle and espionage.

Doesn't make sense to me that the HH would be planned for when it happened--they weren't even close to unifying the galaxy yet.

 Tamwulf wrote:
In response to What Next for the Legion Astartes...

The Roman Empire is credited with the first "Professional Soldier"- a class of citizen that was paid, equipped and trained by the Roman Government. They had no other skills except soldering and fighting. On the battlefield, for the times, no other army could stand up to the might of the Roman Legions. They steamrolled across Europe, Northern Africa, the Middle East, and even into Western Asia. The problem was, what happens to the Legionaries when they come home? The only skills they have are as soldiers, but there are no wars. It was a huge problem, and one that exists today in modern armies.

This is why I like Dorn so much. Of all the Primarchs, he was the only one to ask "What happens after the war?" Only Guiliman and Sanguinious had an answer. The rest of the Primarchs ignored the question, never thought about it, or assumed there would always be a need for the Legions and eternal war. Dorn wanted his Legion to be builders, so that when the fighting was done, they could rebuild. They could be the architects and carpenters of a new Imperium.

This isn't completely true. Roman soldiers did a lot of work besides fighting. They built and maintained garrisons, they built roads. While rome had a huge slaave poipulation, the roman legions could not take along huge number sof slave laborers due to transporting food for them, protecting them and keeping them from fleing, so it fell to the soldiers to build roadways for reinforcement to follow, build front line fortifications, garrisons, etc.

A roman soldier who did his 20 and retired was usually in demand as a worker as he was fit, trained, experienced, disciplined, etc.