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or are they good things taken to evil and horrible extremes?

There are references to the chaos gods all having a positive aspect to them, such as khorne representing the one who fights for a good cause wanting to be the best fighter he can be, which lures many good people onto the subtle and slow path towards corruption.

Nurgle represents the will to survive no matter how hard things get.

Slaanesh represents the quest for perfection.

Tzeentch represents the wish to make make things better thru change.

So, it just made me wonder if the chaos gods have always been pure evil and just use their small positive side as a lure, or were they at one time positive and it was just humanities drive to excess that made them mostly evil?

They are always things taken to the horrible extreme. It always starts small, but once someone starts on the path of one of the gods there is no stopping. You either die, advance towards demonhood or become a spawn. Your desires require you to commit more and more extreme actions in the favour of your diety, until you're no longer the person you used to be.

They are not 'evil', as they are forces, but they are conduits of their chosen emotion (anger, despair, ambition, pleasure), that they amplify those emotions in those two have offered pray and accepted gifts from them.
.

I think the birth of Slaneesh pretty much answers the question, or how Tzeentch isn't just about bringing change it's compulsively doing so even when you're working against yourself in the process. Any potential 'good' to what they represent is lost in the fact you're looking for a cup of water in the middle of a storm-wracked ocean.

In 40k as a setting, following any god tends to result in terrible things and they are pretty much all depicted as pretty awful. The Emperor's life support systems depend on devouring the souls of innocent psykers by the thousands, and the crimes perpetrated in his name by his followers are comparable to ones perpetrated in the name of the chaos gods.

This basically has its origin in early 40k being a satire of organized religion and fascism, in keeping with its 80s lefty roots.

40K alludes that at one time, the warp was a neutral entity without consciousness. At some point, things tipped towards "evil" due to massive trauma, grief, war and loss.

Thinking about it, it may be that the ancient "War in Heaven" between the Old Ones and the Necrotyr may have been that birthing point. We do know that the Old Ones "discovered" the Warp and build many engines and processes that interact with it. Those interactions, coupled with the war itself, may have been some sort of trigger to bringing the likes of Khorne (the war itself?), Nurgle (the radiation suffering of the Necron?) and possibly Tzeench (the Old One's meddling with the Warp?) into being.

The way I see it, framing the question with terms like "good" and "evil" just confuses things. Is a storm good or evil? Is a wolf good or evil for eating other animals?

The chaos gods are a cross between a natural phenomenon and a predatory animal. Each one is on the right "wave length" to "eat" certain types of thoughts and emotions. Some of those emotions and concepts aren't things we'd innately think of as "bad." Some of them are. But a given chaos god probably doesn't wake up in the morning, twirl its moustache in the mirror, and ask itself how it can be evil that day. They're just... organisms after a fashion.

Khorne is made of meat and potatoes. He eats meat and potatoes to become stronger. His fingers (daemons) are made of the meat and potatoes he eats. Humans might be more inclined to think of potatoes as generally "evil" and meat as generally "good," but those concepts aren't particularly relevant to Khorne. He is what he eats. He takes steps to make mortals grow beef and plant potatoes so that he has more meat and potatoes to eat later. He has enough personality to think that Slaanesh's grapefruit diet is gross and enough intelligence to plot ways to make mortals grow fewer grapefruits and more potatoes, but his "thoughts" (if they can be called that) only vaguely translate into notions we can grasp.

tldr; Chaos gods can be associated with things that aren't inherently "evil." But trying to ask whether or not they are evil in a setting where "evil" doesn't really exist as a metaphysical force kind of misses the mark. At least as far as warp entities are concerned, there don't seem to be entities that are made of/concerned with "good" or "evil"; just a handful of terrifying, hungry giants tending to their gardens and fighting over garden space.

Good and evil are descriptive labels we as humans give to actions according to our cultural mores of any given time, they are not extant aspects in the natural state of things. Atoms that make up all matter care not whether they belong to a murderer's weapon or to a nurse saving the innocent, they merely exist.

In the times when background fluff was intentionally left vague and selfconflictory without overexplaining everything thoroughly, chaos gods were not flanderised so much into being about one thing. The distinction between gods being there and gods being gods of some distinct thing is funnily very similar to the division between the ancient Greek gods and the depictions Romans gave them after stealing all the good bits: Greek gods were a breed of their own, with quirks and areas of interest, but they were not tied to those as their job.

Similarily, the chaos gods (of which the great four are only the four greatest, not all there are) are formed from all the varied emotions of the living, reflecting and amplifying those into all manner of forms. The positive aspects, like Khorne incorporating martial honour, healthy pride, sense of duty and so on, aren't necessarily any smaller than the negative aspects like destructive rage and hate towards one's fellow man, but those are more on display because the galaxy has already spiralled into a hellscape that feeds negative emotions. If there wouldn't be such a species-wide fear of death, old age, creeping decay and sickness in a war-torn universe, Nurgle could very well be worshipped as a beneficial deity that brings fertility and turns the cycle of life ever on.

Warhammer (in both fantasy and scifi) has a nihilistic and dark look on the possible outcomes of its premises, which is part and parcel of the original intent. The world is doomed to fall to chaos, regardless of any heroics the mortals enact to slow the march of entropy, but their own struggle will ever only feed the coming of the end unless they learn to kumbayah on a galactic scale. This ain't Star Trek, where the Federation seriously could be argued to hold a key to preventing this type of apocalyptic result through building a post-scarcity utopia for everyone. Moral of the story is that humanity, in its twisted and monstrous stupidity, will eventually be its own undoing.

The Dark Powers are monstrously amoral. The trick is not to personify them. I rather like in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Black Legion that there's a plurality of views on what a Chaos Space Marine's relationship with them should be. Always helpful to distinguish a religion or relationship with god from the putative deity itself.

The Chaos Gods are the product of negative emotions. These negative emotions, over a long period of time, merged into "beings" which gained sentience.

Yes, they are "evil" and will always be because they are made of negative emotions. They only have a small positive aspects because they also encompass some concepts which are loosely tied to their nature (Khorne is sometimes associated with honour for example and honour has been associated with war and combat for a very very long time across multiple cultures around the world).

Nevertheless, it is important to keep in mind the Chaos Gods have no free will. Khorne will always be angry because it is his very nature, Tzeentch will always schemes because it his very nature, Slaanesh will always be excessive because it is his very nature etc. They are the product of the galaxy horrific state.

Wyldhunt wrote:
The way I see it, framing the question with terms like "good" and "evil" just confuses things. Is a storm good or evil? Is a wolf good or evil for eating other animals?

The chaos gods are a cross between a natural phenomenon and a predatory animal. Each one is on the right "wave length" to "eat" certain types of thoughts and emotions. Some of those emotions and concepts aren't things we'd innately think of as "bad." Some of them are. But a given chaos god probably doesn't wake up in the morning, twirl its moustache in the mirror, and ask itself how it can be evil that day. They're just... organisms after a fashion.

Khorne is made of meat and potatoes. He eats meat and potatoes to become stronger. His fingers (daemons) are made of the meat and potatoes he eats. Humans might be more inclined to think of potatoes as generally "evil" and meat as generally "good," but those concepts aren't particularly relevant to Khorne. He is what he eats. He takes steps to make mortals grow beef and plant potatoes so that he has more meat and potatoes to eat later. He has enough personality to think that Slaanesh's grapefruit diet is gross and enough intelligence to plot ways to make mortals grow fewer grapefruits and more potatoes, but his "thoughts" (if they can be called that) only vaguely translate into notions we can grasp.

tldr; Chaos gods can be associated with things that aren't inherently "evil." But trying to ask whether or not they are evil in a setting where "evil" doesn't really exist as a metaphysical force kind of misses the mark. At least as far as warp entities are concerned, there don't seem to be entities that are made of/concerned with "good" or "evil"; just a handful of terrifying, hungry giants tending to their gardens and fighting over garden space.

This is an excellent analogy. The Chaos Gods do the things they do, but only because they are those things. There are elements of things that are good within them, but even those good things, taken to an extreme, can be bad. The bad things, taken to an extreme, are still bad. They just are those things, and want more of those things.

I like to imagine that there's a "good guy" version of the god that would be present on something that looks like a tarot card;

Slaanesh - Man and woman with tattoos and ornate piercings/jewelry, each holding one side of a shared bejewelled silver chalice while wearing silk togas with golden belts. The man holds grapes, tobacco leaves, and dyes all from his other free hand, and the woman holds a basket with a pheasant, chimes, and oils in it.
Nurgle - An older, green-robed man carrying a heavy basket on his back, walking with a cane that is the medical-staff symbol with snakes, and followed by two children carrying a cornucopia and large tomb.
Khorne - Angelic human, no wings, brass halo, brass armour, flowing blonde hair, glistening steel sword, locked in combat against a shadow-y evil, protecting helpless civilians behind him.
Tzeentch - A pattern of two bird-heads chasing each other in a ying-yang circle, with the scales of balance interposed over it.

@Yarium: like this?

Lol, yeah!! Pretty close! Except I don't think that Tzeentch should be a person, and there's a LOT more symbolism that could be added.

Ahem. Magnus did nothing wrong.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ahem. Magnus did nothing wrong.

"Nothing" is not a synonym for "everything", Daed.

And why is this thread not in 40k Background, again?

The choas gods are literally the manifestation of all of the sapient races vices and sins given conciousness. I mean it's self explanitory....

The Chaos gods are evil because the denizens of the galaxy (mostly humans in the Imperium) are evil. When the Imperium fights Chaos, it's their own sins and failings reflected back at them.

Hecaton wrote:
The Chaos gods are evil because the denizens of the galaxy (mostly humans in the Imperium) are evil. When the Imperium fights Chaos, it's their own sins and failings reflected back at them.

This.

They aren't even sentient beings. They are the reflection of what the psychic races do and think. That's it.

The way GW writes them, Chaos is not chaotic, it's just the Dark Side with more spikes and less self-control than monologuing Palpatine. If anything, Chaos is depressingly predictable in it's behavior.

Sledgehammer wrote:The choas gods are literally the manifestation of all of the sapient races vices and sins given conciousness. I mean it's self explanitory....

DarknessEternal wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
The Chaos gods are evil because the denizens of the galaxy (mostly humans in the Imperium) are evil. When the Imperium fights Chaos, it's their own sins and failings reflected back at them.

This.

They aren't even sentient beings. They are the reflection of what the psychic races do and think. That's it.

Respectfully, I think you guys may be oversimplifying. The chaos gods are reflections of mortals' "vices" and "sins", but they're also reflections of every other sort of thought and emotion. It's just that more intense emotion creates more/better "food" for them, so that's the sort of thing they tend to encourage. Slaanesh gets power when someone takes joy in the taste of a piece of candy, but eating a single piece of candy doesn't produce nearly as much warp energy as an entire hedonistic banquet. So which one does the daemonette talking to a chaos cult encourage them to eat during their next meeting?

Khorne gets energy from feelings of martial brotherhood, but those feelings aren't generally as intense as the rush of fighting for your life, so Khorne is probably more interested in encouraging you to hop in a fighting pit than to have a movie night with your bros. The fighting pit creates more "food" for him.

Also, it seems inaccurate to say they aren't sentient. Their minds are alien as heck, sure. But they appear to be able to do things like make plans. In the novel Valedor, it is suggested that Slaanesh used a warp storm to dump one hive fleet near another in order to prompt a martial response from some craftworlders with an end goal of getting some spirit stones broken/digested so Slaanesh could feed on them. That's some intelligent, probably self-aware behavior.

Hecaton wrote:
The Chaos gods are evil because the denizens of the galaxy (mostly humans in the Imperium) are evil. When the Imperium fights Chaos, it's their own sins and failings reflected back at them.

Yup, just like humans created Slaanesh.

Oh wait, no, that was Eldar.

Or like we feed s/h/it daily--

Oh wait, no, that's Dark Eldar.

Or like we created Khorne (dumb early fluff saying Genghis Khan did it)--

Oh wait, no, that was Slann.

Or like our whole race wants eternity of war to empower K--

Oh wait, no, that's Orks.

Or maybe like every single one of use spends every moment plotting and betraying to feed big T--

Oh wait, no, that's GSC.

Or like we're trying to create and empower new chaos gods because creation of last four went sooo well--

Oh wait, no, that's Ynnari and Harlequins.

Yup, humans are totally to blame and it's something we did, no one else

The immaterium is the metaphysical realm where the platonic forms reside and the essence of being "is" . It is the place where ideas, thoughts, dreams, hopes, fears, and beliefs are made substantial. It is the place where the formless are given form, and the physical are made immaterial.

The warp is a reflection of our world just as our world is a reflection of it. The physical and the immaterial do not exist in a world apart. Each necessities the existence of the other as their very being is defined by it. One cannot exist without the other and so one must also reflect the other.

It is in my opinion that the very universe itself has been birthed out of this relationship. There was no unmoved mover, or an infinite regression of cause and effect. No it was the simple necessity of nothingness itself needing "something". Out of the need for the formless void to have a "form" it needed an opposite for it to reside, thus existence itself was created.



OK YOU KNOW WHAT NEVER MIND I DON'T WANT TO WRITE A BOOK.

 Irbis wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
The Chaos gods are evil because the denizens of the galaxy (mostly humans in the Imperium) are evil. When the Imperium fights Chaos, it's their own sins and failings reflected back at them.

Yup, just like humans created Slaanesh.

Oh wait, no, that was Eldar.

Or like we feed s/h/it daily--

Oh wait, no, that's Dark Eldar.

Or like we created Khorne (dumb early fluff saying Genghis Khan did it)--

Oh wait, no, that was Slann.

Or like our whole race wants eternity of war to empower K--

Oh wait, no, that's Orks.

Or maybe like every single one of use spends every moment plotting and betraying to feed big T--

Oh wait, no, that's GSC.

Or like we're trying to create and empower new chaos gods because creation of last four went sooo well--

Oh wait, no, that's Ynnari and Harlequins.

Yup, humans are totally to blame and it's something we did, no one else

It's mostly humans because the other races have their own gods, and humans are responsible for Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle.

Also, humans have a noticable warp presence and are by far the most populous sapient species other than orks and tyranids (who arguably don't feed the chaos gods). So if the gods are reflections of what they eat, humanity is the primary lunch lady of the warp.

I like the view of Nemesis The Warlock on this topic:

KHAOS is not evil. Its just a power akin to the forces of nature. However, this power can engulf and enslave you if you don't know what you are doing if you try to harness it for furthering your own goals.

Humanity OTOH, seems pretty evil with all their genocidal tendencies and blind xenophpbia. The Emperor was the worst of them all, cursed be his name.

There is no large scale good/evil in 40K. All factions are inherently "evil", the "good" only exists on a personal/individual level.

Now you've sounded the klaxon for "rational" internet philosophy undergraduates and amateurs!

Hecaton wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
The Chaos gods are evil because the denizens of the galaxy (mostly humans in the Imperium) are evil. When the Imperium fights Chaos, it's their own sins and failings reflected back at them.

Yup, just like humans created Slaanesh.

Oh wait, no, that was Eldar.

Or like we feed s/h/it daily--

Oh wait, no, that's Dark Eldar.

Or like we created Khorne (dumb early fluff saying Genghis Khan did it)--

Oh wait, no, that was Slann.

Or like our whole race wants eternity of war to empower K--

Oh wait, no, that's Orks.

Or maybe like every single one of use spends every moment plotting and betraying to feed big T--

Oh wait, no, that's GSC.

Or like we're trying to create and empower new chaos gods because creation of last four went sooo well--

Oh wait, no, that's Ynnari and Harlequins.

Yup, humans are totally to blame and it's something we did, no one else

It's mostly humans because the other races have their own gods, and humans are responsible for Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle.

Hmmm... I remember that the mess of state the warp is in, was a product of the war in heavens, so C'tan, Necrons, but specially Old Ones. I know all the fluff that conected some chaos gods to humans, but that was very old and forced lore, making the impact of a extremely irrelevant race disproportionate in the galaxy.

I mean. The Chaos Gods have existed for longer than humanity in 40k universe and not just "In the warp everything exists and dont exist at the same time" but in real time space too. Bel'Akor is older than humanity for example and he was a demon prince since a loooong time.

They’re basically Nature Gods gone completely insane.

This is well demonstrated in Realm of Chaos, where it explains that the Gods make no distinction between the gifts they bestow on their followers.

You could complete a mighty task in their name, and earn reward or boon. You might receive iron hard skin, and immortality. Where as Unlucky Bob, who the God favoured more, received a pinhead, silly voice, silly walk and face of a Pug.

That Unlucky Bob’s gifts are debilitating or useless doesn’t matter to the God - all rewards are equal in their eyes.

They’re kind like Grandparents gone senile. What did they get you for Christmas? Well....it could be a manky, unwashed pair of socks they thought were something else. It could be a massive wad of cash, gifted in a moment of lucidity because they can’t take it with them. Which you receive is a matter of blind luck.

They’re obsession given form (hence Slaanesh’s sheer potential and threat to the rest of the pantheon). Nurgle loves all life, but doesn’t rank them by sentience. When we die, all manner of insects and that benefit. When the more the life the betterer the life, Nurgle doesn’t care that his end result caused one death.

When Nurgle answers the prayer of the sick man, he doesn’t cure the disease - he just stops it from killing you. You still absolutely suffer.

Tzeentch is political thinking taken to extremes where everything is a plan within a plan within a plan, and quite possibly without any particular goal.

Slaanesh is about improvement and indulgence of the self, regardless of the cost to others.

Khorne? Death is death is death. He cares not from whence the blood flows (though originally, he would strike down those who only killed the weak in his name as being unworthy).


So they’re not actually evil - and frankly their overall sentience is in question. But they are hopelessly, irrevocably insane. Hence you cannot treat with Chaos. You cannot master Chaos.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
They’re basically Nature Gods gone completely insane.

This is well demonstrated in Realm of Chaos, where it explains that the Gods make no distinction between the gifts they bestow on their followers.

You could complete a mighty task in their name, and earn reward or boon. You might receive iron hard skin, and immortality. Where as Unlucky Bob, who the God favoured more, received a pinhead, silly voice, silly walk and face of a Pug.

That Unlucky Bob’s gifts are debilitating or useless doesn’t matter to the God - all rewards are equal in their eyes.

They’re kind like Grandparents gone senile. What did they get you for Christmas? Well....it could be a manky, unwashed pair of socks they thought were something else. It could be a massive wad of cash, gifted in a moment of lucidity because they can’t take it with them. Which you receive is a matter of blind luck.

They’re obsession given form (hence Slaanesh’s sheer potential and threat to the rest of the pantheon). Nurgle loves all life, but doesn’t rank them by sentience. When we die, all manner of insects and that benefit. When the more the life the betterer the life, Nurgle doesn’t care that his end result caused one death.

When Nurgle answers the prayer of the sick man, he doesn’t cure the disease - he just stops it from killing you. You still absolutely suffer.

Tzeentch is political thinking taken to extremes where everything is a plan within a plan within a plan, and quite possibly without any particular goal.

Slaanesh is about improvement and indulgence of the self, regardless of the cost to others.

Khorne? Death is death is death. He cares not from whence the blood flows (though originally, he would strike down those who only killed the weak in his name as being unworthy).


So they’re not actually evil - and frankly their overall sentience is in question. But they are hopelessly, irrevocably insane. Hence you cannot treat with Chaos. You cannot master Chaos.

Great post as usual Doc, exalted!

Nope. They just ams what’s they ams.

Moriarty wrote:
Nope. They just ams what’s they ams.

Ah the lesser known God of S'pynnatch and their Daemon Prince Po'ppai