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Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

I'm pretty sure this is a "ask your TO for ruling" thing but wanted to know if there's a definitive answer.

I've had two guys who are TO in the local tournament scene who doesn't believe this is legal, thinking that stratagems are only locked into their respect codex units.

Supreme Detachment
-Mortarian

Any other non-Auxiliary Detachment having:
-CSM Sorcerer

In game: Mortarion uses the CSM "Chaos Familiar" stratagem to replace one of his powers to use the Dark Hereticus "Warp Time" power.

Chaos Familiar stratagem reads:
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Psychic phase. Select a friendly Heretic Astartes Psyker. That model can replace any of its psychic powers with a power of your choice from the Dark Hereticus discipline.

Mortarion satisfies the stratagem's requirements having both the Heretic Astartes and Psyker key words.

I know, specifically, that the GW FAQ locked down the Codex Demon strategems to Codex demon armies. So, it's likely when the new CSM codex is released, they'll nuke this combo.

Is there anything else that could be argued to prohibit this combo?

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I hate it, but RAW I think it works.

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3116 points
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Double checking... even the Sorcerer in the CSM codex has "Psyker" and "Heretic Astartes" as separate keywords so on that point Mortarion is good to go.

So I guess the question is whether there's a general rule hidden off somewhere preventing stratagems from one detachment being used on models in another detachment.
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 solkan wrote:

So I guess the question is whether there's a general rule hidden off somewhere preventing stratagems from one detachment being used on models in another detachment.

Exactly why I'm posing this question.

Evidently, you could do this in the previous Death Guard codex...here's BoLS article:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/11/stupid-40k-tricks-the-morty-swap.html

I'm not seeing in 9th edition anything has changed...

   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





As long as you have a valid Chaos Space Marine detachment to unlock access to their stratagems, then yes, you can apply a stratagem to any unit that has the required keywords.

If you were to say that stratagems could only affect units from the same codex, then stratagems that apply to enemy units (e.g. Daemonic Possession) would never work.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Yes, its still legal.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yes, it's legal
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Thank you everyone. I appreciate you all.

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Legal, but unnecessary imo. Better to use a sorcerer from allied detachment to slingshot him up and let him use his powers offensively when up in the lines.
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Doohicky wrote:
Legal, but unnecessary imo. Better to use a sorcerer from allied detachment to slingshot him up and let him use his powers offensively when up in the lines.

Eh... not practical in many cases as the range of warptime is 3".

If range is of concern, bring in a TS exalted sorcer for that extra 6".

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in rs
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

This topic has been debated before.

Can't find the thread. But it was legal.

   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Warptime doesnt work on morty anymore. He has no <legion>.

*Page 168 – Warptime
Change the second sentence to read:
‘If manifested, pick a <Legion> unit (excluding Aircraft) within
3" of the Psyker.’
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

 p5freak wrote:
Warptime doesnt work on morty anymore. He has no <legion>.

*Page 168 – Warptime
Change the second sentence to read:
‘If manifested, pick a <Legion> unit (excluding Aircraft) within
3" of the Psyker.’

The Chaos Space Marines codex identifies both Thousand Sons and Death Guard as Legion keywords - you're not allowed to give units either keyword in place of Legion, but Mortarion already has it by default.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From page 118 of Codex Chaos Space Marines:

The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Fallen deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from.

The codex is clear. You can not replace <LEGION> with DEATH GUARD, THOUSAND SONS or FALLEN.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ghaz wrote:
From page 118 of Codex Chaos Space Marines:

The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Fallen deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from.

The codex is clear. You can not replace <LEGION> with DEATH GUARD, THOUSAND SONS or FALLEN.


I think it's clear that's what GW intended, but not's not what that actually says. It says you can't choose DG. Mortarion already has DG. In fact, it technically implies that DG is a <LEGION> by saying that you can't choose it - if it wasn't a <LEGION>, they wouldn't need that caveat - just like there's nothing saying that you can't pick ULTRAMARINES as your legion.

The whole thing is ridiculous, but RAW it still works - Mortarion can swap out the power, and when he does, the <LEGION> in it is replaced with <DG> because that's the <Legion> keyword he has.

Note this continuing ability for DG to use CSM strats also means that you can use, say, Vets on DG units if you have a CSM detachment. Again, pretty stupid and pretty clearly not intended, but RAW, it works.

And Imperial Armor FAQ makes it explicit that DG and TS are both <LEGIONs>, despite the CSM book saying that you can't give units in that book those two <LEGION> keywords.

Page 115 – Chaos Space Marine Datasheets
Add the following:
‘Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be
fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though
you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either
Death Guard or Thousand Sons.
You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.
You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons
Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also
gains the <Great Cult> keyword.


Because you aren't giving Mortarion any keyword using the CSM book, you can still swap out one of his powers to warptime using it, and his warptime will work on DG.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 21:53:45


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From the Codex Chaos Space Marines FAQ v1.2

*Page 168 – Warptime
Change the second sentence to read:
‘If manifested, pick a <LEGION> unit (excluding Aircraft) within 3" of the Psyker.'

What keywords Mortarion has is not the problem. That instance of the keyword may not be changed to DEATH GUARD.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




But it doesn't say that anywhere. It says you cannot change a <LEGION> keyword on a unit from the CSM book to <Death Guard>. That's not what you're doing here. Mortarion already has <Deathguard> as his <Legion> keyword, and he's not from the CSM book.

All that rule says is you can't take, say, a generic CSM Daemon Prince from the CSM book with the <LEGION> keyword and replace that with <Death Guard>. It says nothing about being unable to replace the <Legion> in any psychic powers with <Death Guard> if the model has <Death Guard> on its datasheet. The language is very specific in only referring to choosing what Legion a unit in the book is from. You aren't doing that with Mortarion when you swap in Warptime.

Again, it is clearly not intended. But in typical GW fashion, they haven't actually closed this loophole fully yet.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 22:00:15


 
   
Made in us
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Livermore, Ca

I don't see Death Guard as a legion in the chaos space marines codex, nor thousand sons. So not sure if you can swap in Legions not mentioned into the newly updated and nerfed warptime spell or not.

I do recall reading in one or both chaos space marines codex, that Death guard and thousand sons are so different from the rest of the legions that they will be handled in their own codex's. So that leads me to think that if the new death guard don't have access to dark hereticus, neither will the chaos familiar. Or just as bad... you have given Mortarion warptime but you can't select thousand sons nor death guard legions.

Then again, GW never just spells it out nice n clean, so you might be okay.


Then again, if you can't change a legion keyword unit to deathguard one in this codex, why would you be allowed to do that for a psychic power? I don't think you would.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/10 22:21:32


 
   
Made in us
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Imperial Armor makes 100% clear that DG and TS *are* legions. It explicitly says they are. The only thing the CSM Codex says you can't choose DG or TS as the <LEGION> for a CSM codex unit. In Mortarion's case, you are neither choosing a <LEGION>, nor is he in the CSM book, so even if you were, the CSM book text wouldn't prevent you from doing it.

It's actually pretty clear RAW, it's just the usual situation where people don't think it *should* work, so they try to find ways to say that it doesn't. But that's the distinction between RAW and RAI.

E.g. RAW, Paragon Warsuits cost 240 points a model right now. Is that obviously an error? Yes, but it's what the book says RAW.

RAW, Mortarion can still replace a power with warptime, and when he does, it becomes "select a DEATH GUARD unit..."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/10 22:47:12


 
   
Made in us
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Livermore, Ca

So you are saying that based on a 3rd book.... which is not a FAQ, that in fact the 1st and 2nd book are indeed related, maybe just 2nd cousins? That's reaching a bit to be honest.

"It's acutally pretty clear RAI, its just the usual situation where just because a FAQ came out that people think it should still work they way it did before the FAQ came and said it doesn't."

I think your argument has some merit, but the FAQ clearly intended to stop warptime on Mortarion. Maybe its a loophole, maybe its not a loophole.

   
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The units in FW allow you to use DG and TS as legion.

That however does not override the rules in the codex.

RAW Mortarian can use the stratagem to get warptime.

Also RAW as warptime comes from the codex with said legion restriction Mortarian cannot select a valid target as legion cannot be replaced with DG from things from the codex.

Just because Morty has DG keyword doesn't mean he can switch <Legion> to DG for chaos codex things. There is no permissive statement for that, and there is a restrictive statement against it in the chaos codex.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 00:45:48


 
   
Made in hk
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It will probably be gone when the new CSM codex drops, whenever that it. Not sure if they meant for strategems to be used cross codex. Maybe in 8th ed, but in 9th ed, they likely do not want that. The chaos familiar strategem is not in the 9th ed DG codex.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




blaktoof wrote:
The units in FW allow you to use DG and TS as legion.

That however does not override the rules in the codex.

RAW Mortarian can use the stratagem to get warptime.

Also RAW as warptime comes from the codex with said legion restriction Mortarian cannot select a valid target as legion cannot be replaced with DG from things from the codex.

Just because Morty has DG keyword doesn't mean he can switch <Legion> to DG for chaos codex things. There is no permissive statement for that, and there is a restrictive statement against it in the chaos codex.


Again, that's simply not what the CSM book actually says. Both the CSM and Imperial Armor books state (the CSM book by implication, the FW book explicitly) that <Death Guard> is a <Legion>. The CSM book says you nevertheless cannot select the Death Guard <Legion> when choosing which <Legion> a CSM unit is from, but that is the only limitation in the book.

Nowhere in the CSM book - I repeat, nowhere - does it say that when you use chaos familiar to get a dark hereticus power on a DG or Tsons character that the <LEGION> tag doesn't match their legion keyword, and it affirmatively says elsewhere that you replace every instance of <Legion> with the matching faction keyword for the model. All it says is you can't choose DG or TS as your legion when choosing what legion a unit is from. You are not choosing what legion Morty is from when you give him a dark hereticus power. Hence, there is no limitation on it matching his legion, which is death guard.

The opposite reading actually leads to even more gamey results, in that Mortarion would end up with a Warptime that simply remains <Legion> - because you supposedly aren't allowed to match it to his legion keyword - which means it would work on every <legion>, and would therefore be back to being simply Heretic Astartes. But of course that's not right, because you are required by the book to match every instance of <Legion> to the legion keyword the unit has. Mortarion has the DEATH GUARD <Legion>, therefore when he takes a dark hereticus spell, it comes DEATH GUARD linked.





This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 01:38:54


 
   
Made in us
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RAW There is no rule saying that psychic powers or wargear with <legion> keyword get replaced with the units keyword. In fact the rule specifically only states it gets replaced on its unit datasheet. Which is not in line within your statement about it affirmatively says elsewhere that you replace every instance of <Legion> with the matching faction keyword for the model - which it clearly does not say anywhere.

"If a Heretic Astartes datasheet
does not specify which Legion it is from, it
will have the <LEGION> keyword. When you
include such a unit in your army, you must
nominate which Legion that unit is from. You
then simply replace the <LEGION> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Legion."

RAW there is no permission to replace the <legion> keyword for warptime, as it is not on the units datasheet.

Further if we want to add sanity and say it should follow the rules for replacing the units datasheet <legion> entry then mortarion would run into the RAW issue of

"The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and
Fallen deviate significantly in terms of
organisation and fighting styles. As a result,
you cannot choose one of these keywords
when determining which Legion a unit in this
codex is from."

If we are going to say that being able to chose an units datasheet legion name confers to chosing non datasheet things legion names, then likely we would have to extend that rule as well which would again bar Morty (or Magnus) from naming <legion> as death guard for a psychic power from the heretic astartes codex.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 05:54:47


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Prove morty ever had a "legion". If not you cannot satisfy the wartime requirement
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




blaktoof wrote:


RAW There is no rule saying that psychic powers or wargear with <legion> keyword get replaced with the units keyword. In fact the rule specifically only states it gets replaced on its unit datasheet. Which is not in line within your statement about it affirmatively says elsewhere that you replace every instance of <Legion> with the matching faction keyword for the model - which it clearly does not say anywhere.

"If a Heretic Astartes datasheet
does not specify which Legion it is from, it
will have the <LEGION> keyword. When you
include such a unit in your army, you must
nominate which Legion that unit is from. You
then simply replace the <LEGION> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Legion."

RAW there is no permission to replace the <legion> keyword for warptime, as it is not on the units datasheet.


That's not correct. The psychic power you select becomes part of the unit's datasheet, just like any relic or wargear you select becomes part of the unit's datasheet. If it didn't, this wouldn't only be a problem for Morty, it would be a problem for every single model taking Dark Hereticus, so that reasoning gets you nowhere. You then depart from RAW completely when you start talking about randomly applying the rule re: not selecting Death Guard to this situation, when the whole point is that is not what the rule actually says. When you start talking about "sanity" or "common sense" that is a great clue that you are not talking about RAW any more.

The only limitation on replacing <Legion> with DEATH GUARD or THOUSAND SONS is that you can't select those Legions when choosing which Legion a CSM unit is from. Matching the keyword on a psychic power to a unit's LEGION is not choosing which Legion the unit is from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Prove morty ever had a "legion". If not you cannot satisfy the wartime requirement


Already did, please read the thread for quotes. Both the CSM and Imperial Armor books confirm that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> . The CSM book says you cannot choose it as your legion for a CSM codex book unit; if it wasn't a legion, there would be no reason to say that, just like there is no reason for the book to say that ULTHWE or ULTRAMARINES are not legions. Imperial Armor - a 9th edition source, to the extent that matters - affirmatively states that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> .

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 13:00:12


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




So you can prove that "death guard" , in the DG book, was a replacement for the "legion" keyword?

You haven't yet.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Again, I already have. Imperial Armor affirmatively states that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, and that by choosing DEATH GUARD as your <LEGION> choice to FW models, it gives them the same keywords as anyone in the DG Codex and allows them to benefit for those rules. Hence, DEATH GUARD as a <LEGION> choice is exactly the same as DEATH GUARD in the DG codex. There is no possible way to argue otherwise. The whole point of the Imperial Armor FAQ is to make clear that DEATH GUARD is a valid <LEGION> choice and is exactly equivalent to having the DEATH GUARD keyword from the DG codex.

If you missed the text earlier:

You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.


Death Guard is a <LEGION>. There is no doubt on this point.

There is no way to argue that although DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> in Imperial Armor, the identical DEATH GUARD keyword on DG Codex units is somehow not a <LEGION>. The whole point of a keyword is that it is identical in all circumstances. It can't be the case that DEATH GUARD sometimes is a <LEGION> and sometimes isn't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 16:31:39


 
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Oh bugger.

So, a TS Sorcerer now can't warptime Morty due to the FAQ.

However, the debate now is whether or not Morty can use the Chaos Familiar Stratagem to cast Warptime himself? (Provided your army has a separate CSM detachment to unlock that startagem).

Right?

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yes. And he technically can (as long as you have that CSM detachment), though I think we all agree it isn't intended, and I think it'd take major "that guy" chutzpah to try it when it's so clear that the whole point of the FAQ change they made was to try to stop Morty getting warptimed.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 19:02:22


 
   
 
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