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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Information at the link, registration opens tonight for all events at 8 EST

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/14/get-ready-to-roll-secure-your-us-open-series-ticket-today/
   
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Never Forget Isstvan!






Not a big fan of banning things like head swaps and such. I am still gonna go though.

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Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





I can't believe they've gone and done it. They've banned female space marines.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Rihgu wrote:
I can't believe they've gone and done it. They've banned female space marines.


And anything else that you can't prove on the spot you sculpted yourself. This smells like a wildly abusable ruling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
Not a big fan of banning things like head swaps and such. I am still gonna go though.


Get ready for sore losers accusing you of having head swaps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 21:55:25



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






I like the bits about if you don’t use the official paint schemes for armies you need to submit photos of it for approval.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Add in the blanket ban on any conversion to represent a Forge World model.

Nice to see GW straight up hobby naziing their own events even more fiercely.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






I heard there is a plan to put smart-water into citadel paints, so they can test if your models are painted with official stuff.

I have a blog on the Warhammer Tournaments website:

There Will Always be Chainswords

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles 
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Philadelphia

Those anti-conversion rules invalidate 80-90% of armies at events.

Throne of Skulls and the GTs after 2010 were all really mediocre events. Zero interest.

Why would you attend this when you could go to Nova/Adepticon?

   
Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer




Out of my Mind

Just got my GT21 pack and the same problems still exist. Restrictive lists, limited to the 1 mission, with the complete lack of a Competitive scoring system makes tournament 'Matched Play' a joke.

Trying to remain optimistic that the next edition will fix it is proving to be the bigger struggle at this point.

Current Armies
Waiting for 40k to come back in the next edition.

 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 AduroT wrote:
I like the bits about if you don’t use the official paint schemes for armies you need to submit photos of it for approval.


Or the one requiring entirely different paint schemes on different detachments. Different colored bases or putting colored rings to indicate it are NOT allowed.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope






 Eihnlazer wrote:
Not a big fan of banning things like head swaps


This cannot be real.
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

 Irkjoe wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
Not a big fan of banning things like head swaps

This cannot be real.


Link to the event pack. It's possible they're claiming this because 3rd-party stuff isn't allowed ("all miniatures in your collection must be Games Workshop or Forge World miniatures (excluding basing or scratchbuilt components)" or that “scratch build” or heavily converted models need to be approved by the TO first.
   
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United States

 Stevefamine wrote:
Those anti-conversion rules invalidate 80-90% of armies at events.

Throne of Skulls and the GTs after 2010 were all really mediocre events. Zero interest.

Why would you attend this when you could go to Nova/Adepticon?


Because there is a growing group of players who support this kind of play. Since things started to open back up, there are three new players in my local area that will not play games with you, unless you have fully based and painted models, and they have explicitly said the models must be real (I.E GW products, not 3D printed or 3rd party). A few smaller regional pages I'm on are starting to get similar small groups of likeminded people. I talked to one of the locals and she said that it's our duty to support the company, not competitors. She also stated that supporting the company is what keeps the game alive and new releases coming.

Will this kind of thinking ever catch on long term? I don't know, but I can tell you that in a small way, it does seem to be starting. At least around these parts.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




They really need to make some sort of clarifying statement on whether they're really, seriously going to be throwing people out of the event because they have head swaps, that just seems utterly ridiculous and it's hard to believe even GW is that crazy. Ditto on the stuff about getting approval if your models aren't painted in the official color schemes.
   
Made in us
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United States

yukishiro1 wrote:
They really need to make some sort of clarifying statement on whether they're really, seriously going to be throwing people out of the event because they have head swaps, that just seems utterly ridiculous and it's hard to believe even GW is that crazy. Ditto on the stuff about getting approval if your models aren't painted in the official color schemes.


I mean, they have. It's literally in the rules packet.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Akar wrote:Just got my GT21 pack and the same problems still exist. Restrictive lists, limited to the 1 mission, with the complete lack of a Competitive scoring system makes tournament 'Matched Play' a joke.

Trying to remain optimistic that the next edition will fix it is proving to be the bigger struggle at this point.


Can you clarify what you mean by being limited to the 1 mission and the lack of a competitive scoring system?

yukishiro1 wrote:They really need to make some sort of clarifying statement on whether they're really, seriously going to be throwing people out of the event because they have head swaps, that just seems utterly ridiculous and it's hard to believe even GW is that crazy. Ditto on the stuff about getting approval if your models aren't painted in the official color schemes.


The head swaps/minor conversions will be difficult to police, I think. The colour schemes not so much. GW also haven't said you can't use non-standard colour schemes, they've just asked to confirm with them if you want to use one. I'm not a fan of the painting requirements, TBH. While I think it's fine to ask that different sub-faction detachments are painted differently and all sub-faction units are painted the same general scheme (with exceptions for things like Deathwing or Aspect Warriors) I hate the idea that you're suddenly barred from using certain special characters because you chose to paint your Blood Angels black instead of red, for example. I also wonder how far this rule will go for armies that technically have a defined colour scheme but it's not generally well known. UM are blue, for example. We know this. What about my Kronos Tyranids? I play DE and I honestly couldn't tell you what the official colour schemes are for pretty much any of the sub-factions. Do they still need to be approved?
   
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






''all miniatures in your collection must be Games Workshop or Forge World miniatures (excluding basing or scratch-built components),''

It would be clearer if they had prefixed that with ''every part of''.

I reckon some head swaps and non-standard paint jobs/markings for detachments/factions will get permission, they just want to pre-approve everything, and that's a bit of extra effort for players, a lot of extra effort and decision making for them, so fair play. I guess they want to make new players with basic armies feel more welcome?


I have a blog on the Warhammer Tournaments website:

There Will Always be Chainswords

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's been interesting reading the feedback on the policies, vs approving nearly every army submitted to the inbox so far. The rules are there to prevent egregious issues; and, since it's a GW official event, not have things like third party proxies.

As an update:

Austin 40k is sold out with a 200 player wait list. We may try to expand.
Austin AOS is sold out with a 170 player wait list. We may try to expand.

New Orleans 40k has about a dozen spots left.
New Orleans AOS is sold out.

Orlando 40k has exactly 1 spot left.
Orlando AOS has about ten spots left.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm glad to hear you're approving most armies, but if there's a big disconnect between how people are reacting to what's written and how you are actually enforcing the rules, doesn't that suggest that perhaps the wording in the rules pack is problematic and creating the wrong impression? The reactions weren't coming out of the blue, they are in response to what, as written, amounts to a big departure from traditional tournament standards. If the intent was not to actually make such a departure, perhaps future publications could have a line to that effect, so people don't get scared and think the armies they've used at tournaments for many years are suddenly being prohibited.

Also, as written, things like head or pauldron swaps cannot be submitted for approval at all - they are straight-up prohibited by the only GW product (except scratch-made) language. If you are in fact allowing people to submit for approval such armies, and granting such approval, it might be nice to make that clear in future documents as well, to avoid confusion and panic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/18 18:35:45


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




MVBrandt wrote:
It's been interesting reading the feedback on the policies, vs approving nearly every army submitted to the inbox so far. The rules are there to prevent egregious issues; and, since it's a GW official event, not have things like third party proxies.


Good to know that either

A) Hobbyists with converted armies aren't coming to your events

or

B) You're not enforcing your stated rules package.

Both are really great signs.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

Sterling191 wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:
It's been interesting reading the feedback on the policies, vs approving nearly every army submitted to the inbox so far. The rules are there to prevent egregious issues; and, since it's a GW official event, not have things like third party proxies.


Good to know that either

A) Hobbyists with converted armies aren't coming to your events

or

B) You're not enforcing your stated rules package.

Both are really great signs.


What makes somebody become a reply guy? Like, do you wake up every morning and say, "I'm gonna try to windmill dunk on blue checks?" Or do you just see somebody successful and productive and just have an uncontrollable urge to troll them? I'm serious, I need to know!

Because, anybody with a lick of sense knows what these rules are here to prevent: painfully obvious recasts and 3d prints that look like garbage and make GW zero money. GW can't possibly care if you buy a box of dudes, and then spend MORE money on third party shoulder pads or guns or whatever. And tournaments want good looking armies.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
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 Polonius wrote:
GW can't possibly care if you buy a box of dudes, and then spend MORE money on third party shoulder pads or guns or whatever.


And yet the tournament pack specifically prohibits doing that - not only "you need to get approval to use head swaps," but includes specific language prohibiting the use of any components that are not either GW-made or "scratch-built." Hence why people reacted as "hey, are you serious about this?"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 18:38:47


 
   
Made in us
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Macon, GA

yukishiro1 wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
GW can't possibly care if you buy a box of dudes, and then spend MORE money on third party shoulder pads or guns or whatever.


And yet the tournament pack specifically prohibits doing that - not only "you need to get approval to use head swaps," but includes specific language prohibiting the use of any components that are not either GW-made or "scratch-built." Hence why people reacted as "hey, are you serious about this?"



except it doesn't. It says that miniatures must be GW, and that converted or scratchbuilt models require approval. An intercessor with a Kromlech head is still a GW miniature, it's just converted.

The fact that they are filling their event and approving armies seems to indicate that this is clear to the target audience.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in us
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Polonius wrote:

Because, anybody with a lick of sense knows what these rules are here to prevent: painfully obvious recasts and 3d prints that look like garbage and make GW zero money.


Or, are like me, and remember the bad old days. To me this sounds more like legitimizing some GW's judges nastier behaviors, or maybe trying to avoid situations like the one where Chapterhouse bits ended up in White Dwarf while they were suing them in court at the same time.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Polonius wrote:


except it doesn't. It says that miniatures must be GW, and that converted or scratchbuilt models require approval. An intercessor with a Kromlech head is still a GW miniature, it's just converted.


That's simply not correct. Here is the actual language:

With this in mind, all miniatures in your collection
must be Games Workshop or Forge World miniatures (excluding basing or scratchbuilt components)


Is a Kromlech head "basing"? Is it a "scratchbuilt component?" The answer to these questions are obviously no. The reference to scratchbuilt components makes very clear the rule is distinguishing between scratchbuilt components, which are allowed, and third-party components, which are not allowed. That's literally what that rule says.

The section on conversions comes after this, and imposes additional approval requirements if you use scratchbuilt components, or if you use GW components from different kits. You cannot read that to say that a Kromlech head is allowed because it's a conversion. The conversion section doesn't overwrite the requirement above, it imposes additional requirements on top of that requirement.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 18:57:31


 
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

 Polonius wrote:

except it doesn't. It says that miniatures must be GW, and that converted or scratchbuilt models require approval. An intercessor with a Kromlech head is still a GW miniature, it's just converted.


Which, RAW, is expressly prohibited.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

yukishiro1 wrote:
That's simply not correct. Here is the actual language:

With this in mind, all miniatures in your collection
must be Games Workshop or Forge World miniatures (excluding basing or scratchbuilt components),


Is a Kromlech head "basing"? Is it a "scratchbuilt component?" The answer to these questions are obviously no. The reference to scratchbuilt components makes very clear the rule is distinguishing between scratchbuilt components, which are allowed, and third-party components, which are not allowed. That's literally what that rule says.

The section on conversions comes after this, and imposes additional approval requirements if you use scratchbuilt components, or if you use GW components from different kits.


You're making the mistake a lot of people make in interpreting text by assuming limitations that are not there. When the rules exclude bases and scratchbuilt components, they don't only exclude those. It simply stated that those are specfically listed areas of exception. Likewise, the section on conversions never uses the terms third party or GW. They simply say "conversions."

The only clear aspects to this are the following:
1) miniatures must be GW
2) bases do not need to be GW
3) scratchbuilt components are allowed, but require approval
4) other conversions require approval.

This leaves a lot of latitude to the TO on the ground to make rulings. Seriously, you can search the rule packet all day long, it never explicitly says third party components are not allowed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

except it doesn't. It says that miniatures must be GW, and that converted or scratchbuilt models require approval. An intercessor with a Kromlech head is still a GW miniature, it's just converted.


Which, RAW, is expressly prohibited.


the fact that you're trying to argue RAW when the same person wrote the rules packet and is running the event indicates that you might not have the best perspective on this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 19:07:18


My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
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Yeah, that's just wrong as matter of the English language. When something says "GW miniatures only ( excluding bases and scratchbuilt components)" that clearly does not allow third-party components. It's just silly to say "well maybe they meant to exclude third-party components too, they just didn't say so!" That's not how exclusions work. If you have a requirement with exclusions listed, those are the only exclusions.

The statement says GW only, except for bases and scratchbuilt components. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

And nothing Brandt wrote here contradicts that, BTW. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me like he was quite careful to say that people are overreacting, without actually pinpointing what that overreaction was. The reactions aren't only about third-party components, they're also about rules re: painting schemes and the like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 19:16:39


 
   
Made in us
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Macon, GA

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, that's just wrong as matter of the English language. When something says "GW miniatures only ( excluding bases and scratchbuilt components)" that clearly does not allow third-party components. It's just silly to say "well maybe they meant to exclude third-party components too, they just didn't say so!" That's not how exclusions work. If you have a requirement with exclusions listed, those are the only exclusions.

The statement says GW only, except for bases and scratchbuilt components. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.


The entire legal industry is built around the fact that terms are seldom as clear as they may appear to one party. Most things are not written in tight predicate logical terms. If you think that there is only possible way to read a document, you are almost certainly deluding yourself.


My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The text is clear that third-party components other than bases are not allowed - GW miniatures only, except for bases and scratchbuilt components. Both bases and scratchbuilt components are components rather than full miniatures; if third-party components are not covered by "GW-only miniatures" because they are not full miniatures, there is no reason to include those other two exclusions, they would also not be needed the way you claim an exclusion for third-party components isn't needed. Your reading depends on the premise that they included two exclusions that were redundant.

If what is written isn't an accurate reflection of GW's intent, they should modify that language to make clear what their intent is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 19:25:11


 
   
 
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