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Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

So looking to potentially starting a chaos daemons army and it kinda struck me, that daemonettes, bloodletters and horrors are Toughness 3?? They are as tough as a regular human imperial guard trooper? thats just weird.

They should all be toughness 4 at least. Hopefully this will change in the future.


Anyway, can you make good chaos daemons armies as it is right now?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/20 21:26:19


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

GW doesn't use one Stat to reflect how difficult it is to destroy a unit. Basic Daemons may be T3, but they all have a 5+ Invulnerable Save.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







When those statlines were first written Daemons filled the role in the CSM army book that Cultists do in the current one. They weren't T4 because they were supposed to be the expendable screening horde for your expensive people. They've since transitioned to their own book and the game's gotten a lot bigger around them.

As to whether you can play them right now as far as I know they don't work well standalone since they're basically four sub-books that don't interact with each other, but if you pick a god and mix them into a CSM army with the same Mark they can be made to work with cross-book combos.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Back in 2nd edition, Bloodletters had something that was similar to the Necrons "We'll Be Back" mechanic. On top of its normal then 4+ daemonic aura save, it had a 4+ for a "killed" Bloodletter to stand back up again, regardless of how many wounds inflicted on it. It disappeared after 2nd edition because I think it gave them too much durability and survivability was I guess not seen to be Khorne's thing, but more Nurgle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 00:19:14


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Daemons are psychic manifestations of emotional energy; they aren't killed but rather banished back to the warp. There's not really any reason to think they'd be particularly resilient, and having the same toughness as a normal human makes a certain kind of sense. The invuln save works well in that it emphasizes that these are supernatural creatures, so it doesn't really matter whether you hit them with a lascannon or a lasgun, the effect will be the same. Arguably they shouldn't really have a toughness value at all, they should be wounded based on comparing the target's leadership to theirs or something like that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 00:24:48


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
Daemons are psychic manifestations of emotional energy; they aren't killed but rather banished back to the warp. There's not really any reason to think they'd be particularly resilient, and having the same toughness as a normal human makes a certain kind of sense. The invuln save works well in that it emphasizes that these are supernatural creatures, so it doesn't really matter whether you hit them with a lascannon or a lasgun, the effect will be the same. Arguably they shouldn't really have a toughness value at all, they should be wounded based on comparing the target's leadership to theirs or something like that.



Disagree on the leadership test thing. Manifest daemons are subject to the laws of the physical universe, at least partially, which is why guns fired by automated systems or by the impersonal actions of the crew of a starship can still banish them (as shown in the recent Dawn of Fire novel, Avenging Son). Disrupt their physical body enough, and the daemon seems to lose its grasp on the material universe and then the physical body disintegrates since it is really just solidified warp (unless there was somebody possessed in the first place).

The invulnerable save already represents their "toughness" as in the background it can be represented in different ways. The most common way seems to just be supernatural toughness. They take the shot and it seems to do nothing at all to them. A Plaguebearer might have bits blown off but it does not impair them functionally at all. A Tzeentch daemon might literally have mystical wards and glyphs burning in the air deflecting shots. In the Lord of the Night novel, a daemon prince takes a plasma gun hit which blows out a portion of its torso but the hole closes up quickly in front of the gunner's eyes, which might be again an example of a successful invulnerable save.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 00:41:57


 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






One way to think about it is that Daemon's are human nightmares made manifest, so it's not too surprising that Daemon's take on a form similar to human can imagine and have a human profile (S3 T3).

Then each of the 4 Daemon's has a benefit befitting their god, Nurgle's resilience, Slannesh speed, Khorne's bloodthirst etc.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 AnomanderRake wrote:
When those statlines were first written Daemons filled the role in the CSM army book that Cultists do in the current one. They weren't T4 because they were supposed to be the expendable screening horde for your expensive people. They've since transitioned to their own book and the game's gotten a lot bigger around them.

As to whether you can play them right now as far as I know they don't work well standalone since they're basically four sub-books that don't interact with each other, but if you pick a god and mix them into a CSM army with the same Mark they can be made to work with cross-book combos.


Pretty much this. They're designed around a game-state that simply doesn't exist anymore (fear, terror and immune to psychology, along with all the quirks of instability), and a lore that still discourages them from being a single army, reinforced by the detachment rules.

The stat-lines have pretty much no relationship with the weapons environment. They were designed to march across the field against 1 boltgun shot per model, not 3 each from autobolt rifles 20 shot punisher cannons and whatever.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Back in the hallowed days of 3.5E, lesser daemons were T4 (except Plague Bearers who were T5). I can't remember if it was 4E or 6E that brought their toughness down, but that seemed to be to make them into a semi-horde army and this was evidently brought forward to 8E.

Given that all the standard lesser daemons (other than Blue and Brimstone Horrors) are 4PL per 10, I suspect their statlines and cost were constructed to interact with Daemonic Ritual in a specific way. To reliably summon 10 lesser daemons, you'd need to roll 2D6 and potentially suffer mortal wounds; to summon 20 lesser daemons you'd need to roll 3D6 with a higher risk of MWs. I can't help but feel that this is intentional.

Since Orks are going up to T5, I wouldn't be surprised to see lesser daemons gain a point of toughness in their next codex.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I miss the big bulky 3rd Ed Bloodletters.

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





bright side great unclean one used to be T5 and got squished by anything s10 (while the other greater demons were T6)

but sadly long gone are the days of s4/t4 3+ save power sword armed bloodletters.

im still waitings for daemons to put those hell/demon forges to use and start arming themselves with guns... I mean they can craft warp rounds for god sakes they can teach a daemon to use a gun. (or just bind another daemon into said gun)

"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
   
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Wicked Ghast




I'm hoping that we see some durability boosts in the upcoming Shadow Discipline. I'm excited about it.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

Also why on earth would daemons directly suffer from leadership?

Lets face it, if you guys were daemons that KNEW you wouldnt die even if you were "killed" and would just get send back to the warp to be manifested later, would you be afraid of dying? Would you really look at the guy next to you who "died" and was sent back and be like: oh no i gotta get outta here!

So why is leadership such an issue for daemons?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 05:13:42


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Leadership values aren't just about being scared. In the case of daemons, it's about losing their connection to material reality, something that's tenuous at the best of times. Having a lot of other nearby Daemons banished back to the warp makes it harder to keep their link strong - unless of course it results in them becoming even stronger, as simulated by the 1 on a morale test leading to Daemons coming back rule.

   
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Phil Kelly was a poison to the hobby.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Beardedragon wrote:
Also why on earth would daemons directly suffer from leadership?

Lets face it, if you guys were daemons that KNEW you wouldnt die even if you were "killed" and would just get send back to the warp to be manifested later, would you be afraid of dying? Would you really look at the guy next to you who "died" and was sent back and be like: oh no i gotta get outta here!

So why is leadership such an issue for daemons?


Banishment is not entirely consequence free for daemons. They have to regenerate in the warp for a certain length of time, during which they are out of action. Nurgle's daemons for example may regrow in organic pods hanging from trees in the Garden of Nurgle, as shown in Godblight, however if Nurgle is displeased, then Nurgle can slow or even refuse the regeneration. Also, now there are weapons capable of fully destroying, not just banishing, daemons such as the Emperor's sword. When Guilliman wielded it, the daemons of Nurgle were genuinely afraid of it.

Leadership is more about the ability for daemons to maintain a grip on the material universe. When things don't go well for daemons and Chaos, the tides of the warp can recede and leave them in danger of dematerializing.
   
Made in us
Frothing Warhound of Chaos




The first deamon codex was the best by far.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 warmaster21 wrote:
...but sadly long gone are the days of s4/t4 3+ save power sword armed bloodletters...


That's what you think. Ruinstorm Lesser Daemons (30k) may not be able to have power swords but you can get the 3+ armour back, S/T 5 on turns 1-2, two wounds, Rending, and if you put them in Crimson Fury (Khorne-aligned army) they're putting out four attacks each on the charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 06:34:24


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in au
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

The combat attrition rules make the most sense for daemons, as they're an approximation of the old warp instability rules.

Just doesn't work with everything else in the game...

Moorecox wrote:
The first deamon codex was the best by far.
I preferred them before they were split off into their own book.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

The chaos daemon codex is very old, the game has moved forward a lot. They really need a new codex, yet GW prefers to release other codexes which already have been updated.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

True. it seems like many factions that didnt need a new codex right away, is receiving theirs.

Dont get me wrong, i play orks and absolutely love that i get new models and a new codex soon, but i didnt NEED it (the codex that is, many of our models are ancient tho). Chaos Daemons, Knights, Tau, all needs a new codex more than orks ever did. I can put down competitive armies if i want to, and not just a single build but several. Spam Mek Gunz, go Goff green tide or even buggy lists, hell theres been a few Grot Mega Tank builds that sees light of day these days as well.

Im not sure Knights and Tau can do the same. Chaos Daemons, i dont know much about, except they dont show up in the ladders as a top 5 or even 10 faction

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 08:18:28


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

Moorecox wrote:
Phil Kelly was a poison to the hobby.


Ugh. There’s really no need for toxic comments like this.

 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Beardedragon wrote:
True. it seems like many factions that didnt need a new codex right away, is receiving theirs.

Dont get me wrong, i play orks and absolutely love that i get new models and a new codex soon, but i didnt NEED it (the codex that is, many of our models are ancient tho). Chaos Daemons, Knights, Tau, all needs a new codex more than orks ever did. I can put down competitive armies if i want to, and not just a single build but several. Spam Mek Gunz, go Goff green tide or even buggy lists, hell theres been a few Grot Mega Tank builds that sees light of day these days as well.

Im not sure Knights and Tau can do the same. Chaos Daemons, i dont know much about, except they dont show up in the ladders as a top 5 or even 10 faction


Khorne and tzeentch alone are pretty much unplayable, their rules are outdated. Currently nurgle and slaanesh work ok. You need to soup if you want to play multiple chaos gods. Also, making daemons work costs a lot of CP. Its possible to start a 2k game with 0CP. Two detachments is -2 or even more CP, giving greater daemons exalted abilities is -2/3CP, hiding daemons in the warp, allowing them do deepstrike later, with pregame strats can easily cost up to 10CP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 09:20:35


 
   
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NE Ohio, USA

 p5freak wrote:
The chaos daemon codex is very old,


Only in 40k is 3.5 years "very old"....
   
Made in gb
Deadly Dire Avenger





I agree the (lack of) resilience for daemons in the game is kind of weird and one of the biggest examples of rules not reflecting fluff. In almost every piece black library fiction I've read when a daemon manifests there is a huge emphasis placed on the resilience of the daemon(s) to mundane weaponry and they are usually only put down with a huge amount of difficulty after absorbing and regenerating damage.

Now that GW is revisiting profiles and tweaking them to better reflect their background I really hope daemons see some major changes in the next codex to make them the terrifying, mind destroying and hugely resilient "big bad" they should be.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Because chaos sucks in 40k. Daemons are gakky horde units, csms are always super gakky marines , the culmination of the greatest champion of chaos was an excuse to release three dozen new marine kits vs blowing the whole universe up in fantasy.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

 the_scotsman wrote:
Because chaos sucks in 40k. Daemons are gakky horde units, csms are always super gakky marines , the culmination of the greatest champion of chaos was an excuse to release three dozen new marine kits vs blowing the whole universe up in fantasy.

In fairness it seems that's because GW got cold feet as it wasn't that well received in Fantasy.
But you're right.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 kirotheavenger wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Because chaos sucks in 40k. Daemons are gakky horde units, csms are always super gakky marines , the culmination of the greatest champion of chaos was an excuse to release three dozen new marine kits vs blowing the whole universe up in fantasy.

In fairness it seems that's because GW got cold feet as it wasn't that well received in Fantasy.
But you're right.


That and because Fantasy has always been the actual grimdark universe where the heroes actually suffer defeats and the odds are actually stacked against them, while 40k for at least 5 or so editions has been "Tell: A grimdark universe where the heroes have their backs up against the wall, Show: 99.9% heroic imperial heroes saving the day like a saturday morning cartoon"

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Do we know when that campaign book with Be'lakor's new rules is coming out?
I'm interested to see his new combined army list.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 p5freak wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
True. it seems like many factions that didnt need a new codex right away, is receiving theirs.

Dont get me wrong, i play orks and absolutely love that i get new models and a new codex soon, but i didnt NEED it (the codex that is, many of our models are ancient tho). Chaos Daemons, Knights, Tau, all needs a new codex more than orks ever did. I can put down competitive armies if i want to, and not just a single build but several. Spam Mek Gunz, go Goff green tide or even buggy lists, hell theres been a few Grot Mega Tank builds that sees light of day these days as well.

Im not sure Knights and Tau can do the same. Chaos Daemons, i dont know much about, except they dont show up in the ladders as a top 5 or even 10 faction


Khorne and tzeentch alone are pretty much unplayable, their rules are outdated. Currently nurgle and slaanesh work ok. You need to soup if you want to play multiple chaos gods. Also, making daemons work costs a lot of CP. Its possible to start a 2k game with 0CP. Two detachments is -2 or even more CP, giving greater daemons exalted abilities is -2/3CP, hiding daemons in the warp, allowing them do deepstrike later, with pregame strats can easily cost up to 10CP.


I was under the impression that slannesh daemons was one of the chaos gods that actuallly still worked

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
 
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