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GW releases a new edition now pretty much every 3 years. That gives 36 months to release content for an edition.
1 of those months goes to the release itself. So 35 months for the rest of the content. I counted, and I think there are at least 23 factions that need releases in that time. One codex a month means two solid years of releases to get everyone updated. Especially if you take into account the tendency to give .5 codex to certain factions sometimes, basically giving them two release slots in an edition.
So assuming no new factions requiring a codex are introduced (and I can't think of an edition where that didn't happen in some form or another, either a new faction or a subfaction). And assuming the focus is on updating an army every month (which they also rarely manage, often two months or more can go by with no update) you're looking at a best case scenario of playing for 11 months with a complete game. More likely, you'll never actually have a complete game, or it will last a month or two if they get there.
To me, that's really unsatisfying. How do you guys feel about it? My solution would be to delay the new editions. Nothing wrong with an edition that lasts 6-7 years if it means everyone's having a good time. Look at D&D 5e, it's doing gangbusters and it's been going 7 years with no sign of slowing down. Third edition went for 6 years and was a huge success. It's not required that they pump an edition out every 3 years, is it?
It's definitely something that weighs on my mind when I think about getting back into 40K, if I buy in I'll probably get a couple of games in given my busy life and lack of a group before the edition changes and I need to rebuy everything and relearn all the rules.
I’m not a big fan of the release cycle they are on. I’m a slow painter, and get games in sporadically. I own rulebooks I’ve never used, do to edition changes happening faster then I play. If you have a like minded group, you can always play old editions. Makes pick up games harder.
On one side, the rapid release does mean that you no longer have to wait decades, often multiple editions between getting your codex. But it does not stop the issue of codex creep, where playing with a new codex, vs and old one is heavily slanted to the latest and greatest book.
While I love to have a book on the shelf, I think we’d be better off with a living digital ruleset. Where updates would not be tied to print and product cycles and lag times. But I think GW makes too much money pushing paper to ever have this happen. Although the cost of getting the rules has stopped me picking up new models a number of times. So it’s not a 100% loss of revenue.
6 Years between Rogue Trader & 2nd, then > 5 > 6 > 4 > 4 > 2 > 3 > 3
GW needs to keep releasing big boxes to keep their shareholders happy, and new edition boxes sell the best. Hopefully as Specialist Games expands their releases will help extend 40k & AoS.
I dunno, I don't think the two are directly comparable but I doubt Hasbro's shareholders are annoyed at how D&D 5e is doing.
Edit to add: And I'm cool with codex releases being as fast as possible, so that people can play the edition properly with their army. But I think the edition should hang around a bit longer to give people a chance to really play with their toys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 12:29:35
Da Boss wrote: I dunno, I don't think the two are directly comparable but I doubt Hasbro's shareholders are annoyed at how D&D 5e is doing.
Edit to add: And I'm cool with codex releases being as fast as possible, so that people can play the edition properly with their army. But I think the edition should hang around a bit longer to give people a chance to really play with their toys.
I think we have a better chance these days of that happening. It used to be the only time you got new stuff was when your codex dropped. There might have been a second wave, or an odd straggler, but it was mostly a one and done drop.
Now with campaign book series, they can drip feed rules/models and tweak codexs on the fly.
The down side is that if you want to have the full rules for your army, you might need to drag 3-5 books to the table, and might only need a page or two for some of them. And they are $30-$50 a pop. Plus maybe a WD or two.
So GW can continue to flog expensive books that everyone “needs” to have. Or updated codexes that compile them.
I don’t have much of an issue with shelling out for models. I’ve had marines serving the Emperor since the RT era, and continue to do so. But books are a dead investment once the new version come out. I’ve got a LOT of money in dead trees on the shelf. Sometimes I can dust them off for pictures, lore, or historical checks. But mostly just wasted. I was OK with it until 6th. You buy a book, get 4-6 (or more) years out of it, that’s an OK ROI. 6th’s 2 year cycle broke me. I now begrudge every cent I spend on rules, and only buy the minimum I need to play, and no fancy accessories like cards.
The constant cycle of releasing new editions and codexes instead of focusing on and improving one ruleset is the main reason I just play the new Apocalypse and older editions. I prefer a mostly static ruleset, perhaps with an occasional FAQ if truly needed for balance but definitely not at the frequency we have these days.
GW used to say they are a model company first, but their focus has shifted a lot more heavily to rules, codexes/battletomes, cards, supplements, novels, and other non-miniature items over the years. And as long as most of you keep on buying those books/cards that are invalidated months after they are released then GW will keep on producing them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 12:44:20
Da Boss wrote: I dunno, I don't think the two are directly comparable but I doubt Hasbro's shareholders are annoyed at how D&D 5e is doing.
Edit to add: And I'm cool with codex releases being as fast as possible, so that people can play the edition properly with their army. But I think the edition should hang around a bit longer to give people a chance to really play with their toys.
D&D isn't about selling miniatures, Warhammer is.
But yeah an Edition shouldn't last three years, unless its suuuuper flawed and there are loads of complaints and constant major FAQ's. At that point scrap it and make a new one.
I could maybe accept less if X.5 codexes were more of a thing, and there's a reasonably active "oops we screwed up" CA process.
You could argue that 8th->9th could have been covered with a big FAQ. I feel "new edition" was more of a marketing demand given the changes were significant, but comprehensible.
But I don't want to revert to "this faction is up, this faction is down, we'll review things in 4 years, maybe, if you get another crap book that's 8+ years on the shelf." (You could argue I guess certain factions have been in that position for a lot of the last 4 years... but still.)
When GW released 9th instead of 8.1 and PA just had like 8 additional pages per army of fairly half assed rules and reprinted datasheets I knew this was the new standard. People bought the books and continue to do so, so GW will keep up this pace of releases as long as its profitable. So yeah, good luck with that 40k players.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 13:01:56
If only there were other options for releasing rules, rather than GW having to spend time and resources printing physical copies of codices.
If only there was an option that would allow new datasheets to be seamlessly inserted into existing rules, so that model releases don't have to be strictly coordinated with printed rules.
But alas, no such option exists anywhere on the planet so we must continue with the printed word. Incidentally, could I tempt anyone to a game aboard the Titanic? I hear it will soon be ready for its maiden voyage.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Feeds into my tinfoil hat theory that GW estimate the lifespan of a customer at 3-5 years
Yes they know there are long term players but they don't tend to buy much beyond the odd thing for existing armies and hobby supplies so arent targetted to any great degree beyond nostalgia of SG releases
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
3-5 years beats the old rumor that they expected little Timmy to last Christmas and a birthday.
Does beg the question, what to sell old players? We already have all the core units in our army. How many fringe units can they add before the bloat gets out of control? SM codex suggests that GW doesn't think there is a cap. But soaking us for a new rulebook and a codex as often as they can is solid financial planning. Leans hard into the sunk cost fallacy.
Players who aren't brand new to the hobby get sold new armies. Whenever I hit a spell of not buying models when I was a young gobbo, a couple of the staff at my local GW always tried to get me to start a new army. Bearing in mind that at this time I was already playing CSM, AM, Daemons, Seraphon, Slaves to Darkness, Bloodbound, and EC in 30k. It never worked because I was really into reading as much BL stuff as I could and eventually the staff chilled out and started helping with book recommendations instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 14:40:49
Turnip Jedi wrote: Feeds into my tinfoil hat theory that GW estimate the lifespan of a customer at 3-5 years
Hells bells that's dark
yep that came out a little more fatalistic than intended, but then again if you're not spending then GW most likely consider you deceased
I think they acknowledge that established players help spread the brand, and make it so new players have someone to game with. But most of their sales are probably new players getting up to speed. Older players are just grabbing a box or two a year. The new guys are emptying their wallets to get 2,000 points to the table.
Thinking of my own experience on player lifecycle....
I started playing in 1998, and mostly stopped about 2004 (so 6 years) and I only ever got one army to 2k, then I moved, dropping down to mostly just lore books and odd model until a total stop in 2009 I restarted in mid 2020 and am still dithering over which army to build up, so I now have 2 armies at 500pts and another at 1k. Given the limited ability to play currently, theirs not much pressure to build any of these up to 2k.
To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
Its WAY too fast. I would prefer 5 to 6 years TBH.
By the time I've bought, assembled and painted an army it will have been at least several years, disregarding the 7+ armies i have just lying around that have never been painted.
The game changes before I even have a chance to field the damn army. I'll write a list but then they change the points values or in some cases weapon options for the models i've bought meaning my list becomes illegal every 6 months or so when they release the GHB.
I think the accelerated release cycle has harmed their bottom end, from me at least.
I no longer purchase books or rules because they will be obsolete within a year due to FAQ's/Erratas and points adjustments. It's not worth my money.
I also don't purchase any army until 6 months have passed or the latest GHB comes out so that my army won't be make illegal the minute I buy it. It's happened to me twice now, I'm not falling for it again.
Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi
Turnip Jedi wrote: Feeds into my tinfoil hat theory that GW estimate the lifespan of a customer at 3-5 years
Yes they know there are long term players but they don't tend to buy much beyond the odd thing for existing armies and hobby supplies so arent targetted to any great degree beyond nostalgia of SG releases
Hardly a good place that represents a UK or US buyer here, but from the around 20 people that started at the begining of 8th ed. Only 6 made it to 9th, and only 3 still play the game. I have a feeling that there is a large number of people that never cross the one edition break point. Specially if they get burned on their faction, because it is one thing to be required to do extra stuff to make a good army still good, there is very little entice to spend money on an army which will stay bad no matter what you do.
In the end GW will probably just cut content, for an army or two that has just book+HQ model or something like that
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Feeds into my tinfoil hat theory that GW estimate the lifespan of a customer at 3-5 years
That makes a lot of sense actually. It's been pretty well known GW's primary source of income is 12-14 years olds getting started and becoming obsessed for a while so if you stick like 5 years onto their age it's about when they'd start dropping out of the hobby due to their parents not buying them so much stuff, using the money for non-GW social stuff, moving out to go to college etc.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Feeds into my tinfoil hat theory that GW estimate the lifespan of a customer at 3-5 years
Yes they know there are long term players but they don't tend to buy much beyond the odd thing for existing armies and hobby supplies so arent targetted to any great degree beyond nostalgia of SG releases
Unfortunately that's probably true for anything and becomes more true as things become more popular. The old players and fanatics are vastly outnumbered by the 3-5 year crowd so that's who they're going to market/sell to. At least that's part of why I think the game has changed so much and why going mainstream is largely a negative. On the bright side it's good for the second hand market.
Also, there's no reason you have to stay up to date with their books unless you are playing in tournaments.
Yeah the timeline gets pretty nuts if you've got 36 months in an edition and 24 months to get every codex updated. It also means that every new edition a player has to wonder if they'll get their new rules in the first year or the 2nd year. Woo.
GW is currently doing really well financially but I don't think this is a good strategy for a long-term business model. It's going to burn people out, I've got several friends who love to play but with jobs and families don't always have time. Every time they buy a BRB or codex and it gets invalidated by a newer one before they play, well that certainly hurts. Those are older consumers though, not young Timmy. But with how fast 7th/8th/9th are going, young Timmy could get burned just the same by the time he assembles and paints an army then a new codex drops 3 months later if he bought late in the cycle.
Another thing I don't see discussed often is the edition number and the negative connotations with it. I can't think of many games that are proud to be on a 7th edition or a 10th edition or 15th edition. As a brand new consumer if I saw Warmachine 18th edition I might want to stay away, "18 editions? That's a lot". At what point does 40k become "ugh 14th edition? Man they still haven't gotten the rules right? Maybe I'll try this X-Wing game instead."
I am truly surprised they don't go all in with digital rules and updates. Well, they probably wanted to get Warhammer+ up and running so they could tie digital rules to a monthly netflix sized subscription.
I feel the same way. I have acquired several armies over the years and I don't plan on picking up a codex unless I know I'll be playing that army in the near future. Last thing I want is a codex that gets invalidated before I can play the army.
As an example I don't think many people were expecting Sisters to get a codex so early in 9th given that the 8th ed codex wasn't that old.
Yeah, the stark contrast between D&D and 40K is what kinda stood out to me. 40K first came out in 1987, D&D came out 13 years earlier in 1974. Despite that, D&D has had half the number of editions of 40K.
If you look at WFB it's actually even worse, and if you include AoS you're looking at 11 editions in ten years less time than D&D had it's 5.
Just inherently devalues the rules they produce.
Edit: To correct a typo in the year! 74, not 84.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 17:29:08
Da Boss wrote: Yeah, the stark contrast between D&D and 40K is what kinda stood out to me. 40K first came out in 1987, D&D came out 13 years earlier in 1984. Despite that, D&D has had half the number of editions of 40K.
If you look at WFB it's actually even worse, and if you include AoS you're looking at 11 editions in ten years less time than D&D had it's 5.
Just inherently devalues the rules they produce.
This speaks volumes. Unfortunately they've been done gone down that rabbit hole.
The removed - grow up players want a CCG, the more GW is gonna feth over the rest of the game to deliver.....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 20:10:16
I've slowly come to realise that I should just do the modeling and army projects I want to and worry about rules later.
Only sticky issue for me is that i'll be playing tournaments, but probably not that many, and would rather not spend on books i'll not use much. For non-tournaments i'll just use Wahapedia, but still buy the books that appeal to me - for the art and fluff as much as anything. The grand tournament pack is like a tax, and its silly that your every table in a tourney will likely have 2 copies.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Feeds into my tinfoil hat theory that GW estimate the lifespan of a customer at 3-5 years
Yes they know there are long term players but they don't tend to buy much beyond the odd thing for existing armies and hobby supplies so arent targetted to any great degree beyond nostalgia of SG releases
It's called "Leaking bucket principle". You lose all the time customers and have therefore to keep replenishing it with new ones. And yes, GW considers those 3-5 years to be the period in which an average gamer is active.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevelon wrote: 3-5 years beats the old rumor that they expected little Timmy to last Christmas and a birthday.
Does beg the question, what to sell old players? We already have all the core units in our army. How many fringe units can they add before the bloat gets out of control? SM codex suggests that GW doesn't think there is a cap. But soaking us for a new rulebook and a codex as often as they can is solid financial planning. Leans hard into the sunk cost fallacy.
What does a vet buy? Nostalgia stuff! Such as new Slambo for WHFB, new Sly Marbo, female Catachan and the SOB model from the old WD magazine cover.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/04 17:58:20
My solution would be to delay the new editions. Nothing wrong with an edition that lasts 6-7 years if it means everyone's having a good time. Look at D&D 5e, it's doing gangbusters and it's been going 7 years with no sign of slowing down.
That solves nothing as new supplements break the game and increase hobby upkeep and entry costs the same way new codexes do. DnD is not a balanced game, I want 40k to be, I don't think the DnD model is right for this reason.
I don't want printed matched play rules released outside of one month a year. I don't want any army to be ahead in terms of rules, everyone knows that GK, TS and CSM will be 2W at some point, they're not because GW hasn't released the print rules for it yet, that should never be the case. I don't really care how much errata GW piles on top of an edition before switching over to the next one, 8th practically became a new edition with all Psychic Awakening already, I just wish it all came bundled in one robust release once a year.
Spoiler:
*8th edition comes out June 2017 with the indexes, except FW is not separated into its own things.
*GW releases beta rules for new models as they are released.
*December 1st 2017 CA17 is released containing balanced objective secured, WL traits, relics, points and missions for every army.
*October 2017 Deathwatch collectors guide is released as the team had extra time. This contains fluff, pictures, dioramas, guides for Deathwatch and the complete rules for Kill Team, but no rules for regular matched play.
*December 1st 2018 CA18 is released adding Stratagems for every army and updating CA17 content in line with the new Stratagems. Necron datasheets are poorly written so Necrons get a new mini-index as well.
*January 2018 Imperial Guard collectors guide is released as the team had extra time. This contains missions, fluff, pictures, dioramas, guides for Imperial Guard and map campaigns usable by all players, but no rules for regular matched play. These sorts of releases continue whenever the team has time. Space Marines collectors guide with Crusade, Genestealer Cults with Tactical Deployment, etc, etc.
*December 1st 2019 CA19 is released adding Chapter Tactics for every army and updating CA18 content in line with the new Chapter Tactics. Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, etc get new mini-indexes that include their new units that were using beta rules from the Warhammer Community website previously.
*December 1st 2020 9th edition and CA20 is released adding Combat Doctrines for every army and updating CA19 content in line with the new Combat Doctrines. Space Marines and a few others get a new mini-index to update old or include new datasheets.
*December 1st 2021 CA21 is released updating CA20 content, it now contains Relics, Warlord Traits, Chapter Tactics, Combat Doctrines and Stratagems for every army as well as tournament missions.
The amount of money the veterans at my club spend on 40k still after playing for over 30years make me wonder how many kids there have to be to equal them in spending. These are grown men with 1 hobby and don't spend much on anything else. You would probably need a bunch of kids for each veteran to keep up in spending. And these guys have been doing this for longer than I have been alive. Each of them should be worth at least the same as 40 kids being burned and churned.
A single veteran is probably worth a handful of kids at a time but will keep on for decades. Probably a bad idea to not cater to them enough and focus too much on the kids. Probably harder and harder to get the kids now a days as well when you have phones,iPads and way cooler video games than 20-30 years ago to compete with. Way cheaper as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 18:17:54
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
4k Points
Competition Index
Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts 
