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When would you want to choose a unit with a worse WS/BS

Chaos Examples: Only time I see taking the 4WS/4BS is if a Master of Possession would be within 6" granting Cursed Earth +1 to Inv. Save to Daemon units and Infernal Power re rolling hit and wound rolls of 1's which would be for stationary range units so MoP doesnt get melee killed. Defiler, Forgefiend

Helbrutes average cost 115 WS3/BS3 3+Save/No Inv.Save
Dreadoughts average cost 170 WS3/BS3 3+Save/5+ Inv Save some are Daemon so re roll hit and wound of 1's and Inv Save 4+
Bloodslaughterer averageC 140 WS3/BS3 3+/5+ Inv Save melee
Greater BlightDrone averaC 125 WS3/BS3 3+/5+ Inv Save deamon so re roll hit and wound of 1's and Inv Save 4+ but could also be melee.

Defiler Average cost 170 WS4/BS4 3+/5+ Inv.save re roll hit and wounds of 1's and Inv. Save 4+
Forgefiend Average cost 140 WS4/BS4 3+/5+ Inv save re roll hit and wounds of 1's and Inv. Save 4+
Maulerfiend average cost 140 WS4/BS4 3+/5+ Inv save Melee
Venomcrawler Average cost 110 WS4/BS4 3+/5+ inv save
Heldrake Average cost 155 WS0/BS4 3+/5+ Inv save Flyer and melee

To answer your question: When the unit with worse BS/WS is better than the one with better BS/WS.

You're trying to create a binary and it just doesn't work like that.

Whether a unit has a 3+ 3+ or a 4+ 4+ or whatever is only a very, very small part of what makes a unit good or not. There are far too many factors for a blanket statement to apply here.

 IwinUlose wrote:
When would you want to choose a unit with a worse WS/BS

1) If I were looking to save pts. for some reason & the lower stats would serve well enough.
I do this frequently in other minis games where you can select the degree of training.

2) Depends upon the other abilities/options the units got. I might not be picking it with WS/BS being the primary concern.

3) Am I trying to model something specific training/exp wise with this force?
For ex, let's say I start a Guard force for our next Crusade. I might start by picking conscripts. Then after a few games/wins/certain amount of xp replace them with regular Guard squads. Eventually replacing those with vets....

You usually can't get the same equipment on the unit with better BS as on the unit with worse BS. If you sit down and do the math you may find a unit with worse BS that does more damage on average than the unit with better BS just by virtue of having that much better of a gun. (No, I'm not sitting down and doing the math on all your CSM choices for you.)

Apparently not many people take the WS/BS 4 Daemon engines so they got updated to WS/BS 3 in 9th edition . Yeah, not yet for CSM, only for DG and Forgeworld because GW... makes strange decisions concerning CSM...

Yes, WS4/BS4 hits 17% more than WS3/BS3, therefore all WS4/BS4 units and armies are better. Drukhari are better than Astra Militarum, why? It's the higher WS and BS of the units of course, they hit 17% more so it's obvious why they will win most of the time. /sarcasm

If I’ve got WS3, BS4, and a rubbish shooting weapon? I’m going to be a worse pick than someone with a decent shooter at WS4, BS3.

40K is a numbers game. There’s an old (and not completely accurate) adage of “victory goes to he who rolls the most dice”.

The theory is that statistically average rolls aren’t as common as we might think. And the more dice we roll, the greater the chance of a favourable roll.

Example? A single shot weapon with BS4 can only ever score one hit per turn. Whereas something with say, Heavy 3 at BS3 always has a chance of all three hitting, wounding and causing failed saves.

Sure, the perfect three for three there is unlikely. But unlike the single shot, high BS weapon, it’s still a possibility.

The art of the game is getting to the point where you maximise your attack potential, whilst limiting your opponent’s attack potential. Particularly with judicious application of unit buffs and stratagems in the right place at the right time.

The relative weapon or ballistic skill of a given model of unit is only one of the many factors we as players need to consider.

It’s all fine and well to take only Heavy Bolt Rifles in your Intercessor Squads. They’ve got decent BS, and the guns hit pretty hard. But you’re still only ever getting a maximum 10 unsaved wounding hits off a turn. Whereas a unit of Shoota Boyz, 20 Strong?

Well, that’s 40 or 60 shots a turn, max. Which, however remote the chance, is still the possibility of 60 unsaved wounding hits. And because you’re simply rolling more dice, you’ve more chance of getting an above average round of shooting.

So whilst somewhat unlikely, those 20 Boyz could take out a Knight in a single round of shooting, where the ostensibly better Intercessors simply cannot (unless Heavy Bolt Rifles are now D2? I don’t have the current Codex).

Actually, you’re more likely to see above (or below) average results with LESS rolls, not more.

The more you roll, the more average you get. 360 Bolt Rifle shots at a Knight will deal 20 damage, plus or minus one or two, almost every time. That’s within a point or two of the average, at BS3+.
1 BS3+ Lascannon shot averages .77 damage against a 4++ Knight. Guess how often that happens.

It’s kinda both.

If I’m only rolling 10 shots, a duff, under average roll is more damaging than when I’m rolling for 30 shots.

And equally, a higher than average roll in both scenarios again favours the 30 shot roll. I’ll try to break it down.

I’ll stick to BS4/BS3 for each example respectively.

With 10 shots, that should, statically, be 6 or 7 hits depending on whether we round up or down.

With 30 shots at BS3? 15 hits.

If each roll results in below average results? It’s more likely for the 10 shots at BS4 to be more of a waste, because the initial damage potential is inherently wasted.

Yes. I am far, far more likely to hit with every shot at BS4 - but that’s still only ever going to be 10 hits.

Hence it all becomes a mix of accuracy, rate of fire and damage potential, with the accuracy being perhaps the lesser of those considerations.

I suppose an interesting comparison might be Vanguard Skitarii and Skitarii Rangers (even without Radium Carbines’ exploding 6’s), as their stat line is the same, but their weapons wildly different?

If anyone has that Codex and cares to run the numbers, please chip in. Though perhaps don’t apply Stratagems or Buff Bubbles etc. Just a straight up “10 of X, 10 of Y”.