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How do?

So, seeing as it is past midnight, and I have a need to be up, I figured its high time I write up this post I've been thinking of for some time:


Comparing the comic book heroes who are majorly and ridiculously wealthy, and who among them are the biggest villains.

How are comic book "heroes" that are fabulously wealthy actually villains I hear you ask? Well, that there is the point of this thread, and I will expand upon the idea. See, I have been musing, but google is largely failing me, about just how many super villains (story arc, and side background dependent) are former employees of the mega-corporation that their super-hero arch rival is the owner of?


For instance, in the Iron-man MCU series, Obadiah Stane was an employee of Stark's who had a diverging idea to how the suit tech should go.

But really, the main focus of my thoughts always goes to Batman. Yes, Batman to me is the biggest villain of them all because, I seem to recall that, depending on arc and world building, there's quite a large number of former Wayne Enterprises employees who take up a super villain costume. Off the top of my head, there's the Riddler, a couple versions of Joker, Mr. Freeze's project was killed off by Wayne while he had a project going, same with Poison Ivy, the Court of Owls plotline revolves around employees/ shadow boards of Wayne Ent. and so on.

I guess, just how terrible would it be to work for Wayne Enterprises that turning to a life of supervillainy looks better, or how terrible are conditions that criminal insanity is the result for a statistically significant piece of the employee population?
   
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It is interesting how often the villains trace back to Wayne Enterprises. From what i remember, it often seemed more like they would go rogue because they lose funding or can no longer keep their pet project going, which feels less like the workplace did it and more like they do really really poorly at screening new employee's and should have a better project review system.

One of the better backgrounds to me, much like they did for the show Gotham, is that a lot of all that mess was basically inherited from his fathers time/board of directors from when he was a kid/wandering around learning the skills he felt he needed
   
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Dominating Dominatrix






Well, like you say, it depends on the continuity.

Mr. Freeze for instance isn't a Wayne project in the only version that really matters (the animated series where he was reinvented into the awesome version we all think of).

Poison Ivy was actually a understudy with The Floranic Man (an enemy of Swamp Thing).

Riddler is just some guy looking for a challenge and OCD. etc etc...

The Court of Owls predates Batman and is ultimately responsible for Thomas Waynes murder. They made Batman, not the other way around.



For me, the biggest villain is always Reed Richards. Seriously, feth that guy. Think of all the wild and powerful inventions he makes. All the practical applications that could make the world better. And he does none of it. His kid is a mutant and he basically feths with his DNA to hide it. He constantly abandons his friends and wife and family. His rivalry with Doom is mostly based on both of them having too much pride to let the other one do anything.

Look at this.




These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Bruce Wayne is a selfish git.

He’s against Crime. And he’s a multi billionaire - and thanks to Wayne Industries, those funds are practically limitless.

Does he understand the socioeconomic factors which lead to crime, and use his vast, near limitless wealth to intervene? No. He beats up the poor.

Does he do anything to bring about systemic change in Gotham? No. He wants to beat up poor people.

He invests untold sums in his own non-lethal gadgets and gear, including protection. Does he share that with the GCPD? No. He needs to beat up poor people.

His need to skulk around in the shadows and avenge his parents deaths on a nightly basis is nothing to do with justice. He’s a nutter, and a deeply unpleasant one. He does precious little to change Gotham for the better, because it’s so good at providing him with fresh punching bags.

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Bruce spends a Ton of money on philanthropic endeavors and police gear. Works quite heavily trying to help the poor. But he’s only one rich dude. At any given time there’s a half dozen or so other rich people in Gotham fueling the status-quo because they’re profiting off of it. Like yeah, more pages get dedicated to the punching bad guys, because that’s more entertaining, but they often make mention of all of Bruce’s other efforts to try and help people and to claim that all he does is punch poor people is widely inaccurate.

 
   
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Yeah.. It's pretty regularly noted all the ways in which he uses Bruce Wayne to try and fix the problems with Gotham that Batman cannot. And uses Batman to fix the problems Bruce cannot.

There was a story like... 10 years ago from the point of view of a girl who lived/worked in the sewers. She finds all these little black boxes tied into the cities power grid. In the end she find out they are doing a few things. On the surface they allow batman to control the cities network. Cameras and stuff cut out when batman is coming by. The batmobile doesn't get recorded on traffic cameras and such because of these boxes.

But also, they are reinforcing and backing up the power grid. Parts of the infrastructure that would have fallen completely apart are reinforced heavily with layers of back up to places like the narrows because Batman has put these in place. The city literally would have fallen apart without him.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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UK

I think one issue, eps with the films of Batman, is that in a bid to show how rich and how much access to resources and technology he has; they often end up shifting him from being A rich kid to being THE rich kid.

The Dark Knight series of films almost has Wayne Enterprises being the soul and heart of the city, not just being rich but pretty much building most of its core infrastructure.

I think this is further done when they start to merge him with other super heroes, because now he can't just be an affluent rich kid, he's got to compete with Stark Enterprises and other big names who are more built around being internationally rich.

But that's a running issue with Batman that rears its head a lot in mash-ups with other super heroes. He is ultimately a character designed to operate within one city with a high crime rate and some extremist criminals. He's not really "made" to work outside of that at the larger scale so in a bid to preserve aspects of his character (eg being rich) they get upscaled as the story spills out and tries to go for a wider world view.




In the end many of the earlier TV/movie adaptations tend to have him much more modest in income. Yes he's rich and his parent company that he inherits almost runs itself and generates him sufficient wealth to not have to work hard every day with a regular job; and enough to invest in high end technology - which whilst he has a lot is also ultimately only for one person to use (or two or three depending on if he's got Robin and other side characters).




As for evil characters arising within his company, I think that again this depends on the nature of the specific setting. IF Wayne Enterprises is the only big name in town by far then they all tend to arise within that; if he's one of many and might not even be the richest then other firms give options for them to branch out the story. However Wayne is still going to be a focus because it adds to the dark themes of the setting. It's another layer in the "no matter how hard he fights there's always darkness" within the city - even within the very company that he runs.

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Also of note, a lot of his gear isn’t inherently non-lethal, he just uses it that way. Stick his stuff in someone else’s hands and they could kill a whole lot of people.

 
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Bruce Wayne is a selfish git.

He’s against Crime. And he’s a multi billionaire - and thanks to Wayne Industries, those funds are practically limitless.

Does he understand the socioeconomic factors which lead to crime, and use his vast, near limitless wealth to intervene? No. He beats up the poor.

Does he do anything to bring about systemic change in Gotham? No. He wants to beat up poor people.

He invests untold sums in his own non-lethal gadgets and gear, including protection. Does he share that with the GCPD? No. He needs to beat up poor people.

His need to skulk around in the shadows and avenge his parents deaths on a nightly basis is nothing to do with justice. He’s a nutter, and a deeply unpleasant one. He does precious little to change Gotham for the better, because it’s so good at providing him with fresh punching bags.
We are just going to forget there's a deep systematic corruption in the courts and the cops. That there's several active mafia and crime families (and several shadowy organizations like the court of owls) that help dictate things from the background and the shadows, and there's many more rich folk who also don't want things to change along with the other issues at hand.

You may have given the strangest take on batman I've ever seen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/15 14:49:49


 
   
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There was a guy at my dads work that went out at lunchtime to beat up homeless people. He got sacked quite quickly after that particular peccadillo was noticed…

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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And have you all noticed that wherever Jess Fletcher goes in Murder She Wrote...there is always a murder?


Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
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UK

SamusDrake wrote:
And have you all noticed that wherever Jess Fletcher goes in Murder She Wrote...there is always a murder?



To be fair the same is true of a lot/most detective style repeat stories. Holmes is actually one of the few that has a murder/death/investigation rate that isn't horrifically abnormal since he often travels considerable distances or deals in non-murder related crime.

Meanwhile the village of Midsummer has had so many murders and deaths that its a wasteland of death! Heck in one episode you can lose a half dozen people fairly easily.

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The rather tiny island of Jersey was a dangerous place to be when Bergerac was about…

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 Overread wrote:
Meanwhile the village of Midsummer has had so many murders and deaths that its a wasteland of death! Heck in one episode you can lose a half dozen people fairly easily.

You've got to wonder about the size of the graveyard, really - though I imagine you can get a bulk discount at the crematorium...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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 Overread wrote:


Meanwhile the village of Midsummer has had so many murders and deaths that its a wasteland of death! Heck in one episode you can lose a half dozen people fairly easily.


Somehow I knew that Midsummer would work its way into the conversation!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Flinty wrote:
The rather tiny island of Jersey was a dangerous place to be when Bergerac was about…


Thankfully Robert and Jasper were there to keep an eye on him...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/15 21:35:08


Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
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I would like to point out the (extremely sweary) poem "Batman's Aff His Nut" https://twitter.com/robertflorence/status/1047805594533605377?s=19
   
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Midsummer isn’t a single village though?

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Midsummer isn’t a single village though?


True, I often forget its supposed to be a county/region instead of a village. However its still got a freakishly high death rate!

Also they should have ended it when Mr Nettles left, the new guy just.... he's got no character to him. He just looks like an estate agent or any general person in a suit and office role. There's not the same charm or character to him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/16 10:54:33


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 AduroT wrote:
Bruce spends a Ton of money on philanthropic endeavors and police gear. Works quite heavily trying to help the poor. But he’s only one rich dude. At any given time there’s a half dozen or so other rich people in Gotham fueling the status-quo because they’re profiting off of it. Like yeah, more pages get dedicated to the punching bad guys, because that’s more entertaining, but they often make mention of all of Bruce’s other efforts to try and help people and to claim that all he does is punch poor people is widely inaccurate.


One of the few stories to really do something with this idea is White Knight, which unfortunately is both technically not cannon despite having very little reason not to be and really fails to explore the concept beyond the twist of "rich people in Gotham set up a system to profit off Batman that prevents Batman from having any lasting positive impact so they can continue to profit off Batman". It's a great idea for the modern day, but sadly doesn't go anywhere with it.
   
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I'm just popping in to say: The greatest hero in all of DC comics is the guy/gal/person who shot Bruce's parents. Without that guy's actions, the enitre DC universe, and the world, would have been destroyed countless times.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm just popping in to say: The greatest hero in all of DC comics is the guy/gal/person who shot Bruce's parents. Without that guy's actions, the enitre DC universe, and the world, would have been destroyed countless times.


In most cases, the person is Joe Chill if I remember correctly.
   
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 Grimskul wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm just popping in to say: The greatest hero in all of DC comics is the guy/gal/person who shot Bruce's parents. Without that guy's actions, the enitre DC universe, and the world, would have been destroyed countless times.


In most cases, the person is Joe Chill if I remember correctly.


Didn't it get retconned to be the Joker?
   
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Dominating Dominatrix






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm just popping in to say: The greatest hero in all of DC comics is the guy/gal/person who shot Bruce's parents. Without that guy's actions, the enitre DC universe, and the world, would have been destroyed countless times.


In most cases, the person is Joe Chill if I remember correctly.


Didn't it get retconned to be the Joker?


No thats just Batman 89.

It has been retconned that Joe Chill was put up to it by the Court of Owls.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Les Etats Unis

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Bruce Wayne is a selfish git.

He’s against Crime. And he’s a multi billionaire - and thanks to Wayne Industries, those funds are practically limitless.

Does he understand the socioeconomic factors which lead to crime, and use his vast, near limitless wealth to intervene? No. He beats up the poor.

Does he do anything to bring about systemic change in Gotham? No. He wants to beat up poor people.

He invests untold sums in his own non-lethal gadgets and gear, including protection. Does he share that with the GCPD? No. He needs to beat up poor people.

His need to skulk around in the shadows and avenge his parents deaths on a nightly basis is nothing to do with justice. He’s a nutter, and a deeply unpleasant one. He does precious little to change Gotham for the better, because it’s so good at providing him with fresh punching bags.


Ignoring all the other common (and accurate) rebuttals to this sort of sentiment, it should be noted that Batman does not spend a comparatively large amount of time "beating up the poor," as you put it. Think about it: All the most famous Batman stories are when the Joker takes over half a city block, or the Penguin or Black Mask organize some variety of massive criminal enterprise, or when literal international terrorist Bane decides that Batman is definitely an easy-to-beat pushover, probably. Frankly, these aren't the sorts of evil schemes that poor people come up with. Like, do you think that the Riddler funds his death traps via abuse of the welfare check? I assume not.

Even ignoring all the mob bosses and multimillionaire elite secret societies which Batman fights all the time, saying his most famous villains are by any means victims of their society is a stretch, to put it lightly. Most of these guys could have put their talents to any number of productive purposes but instead, to put it in Generation Z's language, simply "woke up and chose violence."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/09 07:33:23


Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

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But all of these evil schemes rely on large numbers of minions that ofcuply most of the face smashing time of the heroes. It would be nice to think that the supervillains pay well and have good medical insurance support and life insurance policies, if only because of the minions really need that when the heroes come blazing through.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Well, if we are portraying Batman as the cause of all evil, his superpower IS basically White Privilege.
   
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Les Etats Unis

 Flinty wrote:
But all of these evil schemes rely on large numbers of minions that ofcuply most of the face smashing time of the heroes. It would be nice to think that the supervillains pay well and have good medical insurance support and life insurance policies, if only because of the minions really need that when the heroes come blazing through.


In all fairness, it's not like being a supervillain's henchman is the only option these people have, even if they do feel as if they need to commit illegal acts to support themselves or their families. While they're both largely immoral, there's a huge difference between mugging someone or joining a gang and working for a quantity of known sociopaths that are notorious for both making bank and randomly killing their followers. Anyone who actively chooses to work with most of Gotham's villains is probably doing so out of greed rather than feeling they have no other choice.

And again, as numerous other people have said, Batman usually goes pretty soft on criminals who obviously aren't irreconcilably evil. Sometimes he even brings reformed villains over to his side, like Clayface and Man-Bat (well, Man-Bat worked with the Justice League instead, but still).

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
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Harley Quinn and Cat Woman are also neat examples of more morally grey characters who can both work against and with Batman. Though whilst both can work with and against, Harley is far more on the extreme ends of it, of course. Though interestingly she's often very reactive to those she's with - she's far more deadly when she's with Joker.


And speaking of Joker, he's really the only one known to outright kill his henchmen without a care and sometimes on a total whim. Most of the others tend to, if not care for their henchmen, at least try not to throw them away.

But it can vary on the storyline and setting, some Batman settings are fairly low scale and some are huge scale. You've extremes like the old live action TV series (POW - ZZAAP etc...) all the way to things like Justice League where he's battling aliens and world invasions way beyond a bank heist in Gotham.

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Does he do anything to bring about systemic change in Gotham? No. He wants to beat up poor people.
I can't offhand think of any time that Batman has beaten someone up because they are poor.

I mean - murderer and poor, arsonist and poor, child kidnapper and poor - sure. But just poor poor? Examples required.
   
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Les Etats Unis

 Overread wrote:
Harley Quinn and Cat Woman are also neat examples of more morally grey characters who can both work against and with Batman. Though whilst both can work with and against, Harley is far more on the extreme ends of it, of course. Though interestingly she's often very reactive to those she's with - she's far more deadly when she's with Joker.


And speaking of Joker, he's really the only one known to outright kill his henchmen without a care and sometimes on a total whim. Most of the others tend to, if not care for their henchmen, at least try not to throw them away.

But it can vary on the storyline and setting, some Batman settings are fairly low scale and some are huge scale. You've extremes like the old live action TV series (POW - ZZAAP etc...) all the way to things like Justice League where he's battling aliens and world invasions way beyond a bank heist in Gotham.


Joker's definitely the only major villain who actively kills his henchmen, but I'd argue a couple of others are extremely okay with sending them off to die, such as Riddler and Bane. You could argue that an effective death sentence is a bit different from literally being murdered, but I personally consider them close enough to be equally unwise as life choices.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
 
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