Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Back when I was first looking at AoS it was a highly bare bones game that didn't really interest me. Now it seems much more fleshed out and rich I'm considering getting into it and am just wondering about the state of competitive AoS atm. What's the balance like? Are there annoying gimmicks and rules creep like in 40k atm? Whose topping out the tables regularly and whose struggling? I've heard God-meta is a bit of a thing and that my beloved Wood Elves (or at least what's left of them) are languishing at the bottom of the pack.

I really dont know the state of the meta right now, with the new edition just starting and pandemic stuff still affecting the ability to get games.

But in a general sense, yeah. Its pretty good. Yes, power creep is a thing like in 40k. Newer tomes are usually better than older ones, sometimes punishingly so (but some are not, its a bit random).

It feels to me like usually the gap between the top and bottom armies is smaller than 40k though, and that any army built and played well can do some work.

Wood Elves aren't really a thing any more. They are like two units within Cities of Sigmar, and if you stuck to that it would be a really terrible army I'm afraid to say. Sylvaneth are worth looking into, they're a lower power army right now but as I say that's not necessarily a massive deal so long as your local meta isn't crazily competitive.

That's a shame...I always loved the elven aspect of wood elves as well. But the trees are cool too. Seems like such a missed opertunity to include a badass Ariel model what with all these other 'gods' running around. I've heard Sylvanneth are pretty terrible? I'm also interested in Soulblight Gravelords, are they up to much atm?

So yeah, Sylvaneth are in a rough spot right now. But, 3rd edition has just started and no one has a new book yet. So everything could change when they get updated, and their tome is one of the older ones so I would hope it wasn't too long until its their turn. Earlier in 2e they were a top meta army, so it could easily get turned around again.

I really wouldn't get too hung up on army power when deciding what to collect, as stuff can change hugely with an FAQ etc. Pick an army you'll enjoy building and painting etc, and you should enjoy the hobby however your army is currently fairing.

Soulblight got their book very recently right at the end of 2e. They're... OK, power wise? Middling. In danger of getting power crept as new books come out. But they have some cool models.

My impression is that one thing AoS is doing ok with (by GW standards) is powerbuilds. They do happen still, but in general a lot of the events show much more diversity of armies being taken.



As for balance right now its a bit up in the air. 3rd edition has made a few fairly major shifts in how armies are built. In the past you had points and the unit limits with units made in blocks up to their limit with a points discount for full units

So a unit might be

10 models - 60 points
20 models - 120 points
30 models - 140 points

Which thus encouraged you to take fewer full units for the points discount.



3rd edition has made it more complicated. Units now have a base number of models in the unit (eg 10). You are then allowed a limit of "reinforcements" depending on the points value of the game
eg at 2K points you have 4 reinforcement points.

For each reinforcement point you may double the base number of models in a single unit. Furthermore only battle-line units can be reinforced twice (every other unit can only be reinforced once).

This means that the game has had a huge shift from big infantry blocks toward smaller infantry blocks with one or two big ones if you so desire.
I think GW have done this in part, alongside a points increase in general, to make the game use fewer models at the "2K" value to lower the barrier to entry; but also because it means that big infantry blocks no longer dominate the army building. It opens things up to smaller units and specialists having more impact on the table.

So now you might have 2 units of 30 models (each unit is reinforced twice); and everything else is minimum composition.

It's an interesting twist, but its likely going to need updates for a few battletomes - eg skaven are hit hard by this as their clan rats are built around being weaker but numerous so I could see armies like that getting a reinforcement booster or such. Meanwhile armies like Ossiarchs are perfectly happy

Ossiarchs are not very happy with this change imo, though there are things they are less happy about (command ability restrictions specifically).

But yeah, armies built around 2 blobs of 40 Mortek guard were pretty common. Now they're stuck with one blob of 30, which with buff stacking hurts them a lot.

Arguably necessary and deserved sure, but it definitely affects them a lot.

Choose your faction wisely. And then be prepared to choose your faction wisely again in a year.

It's about as bad as you'd expect from a Warhammer game.

Just to clarify, I'm not looking to get into the tournament scene, I'm just interested as to the state of the games factions and competition atm. I don't want to chose an army thats the equivalent of 40k tau atm with 1 viable build and 3/4 of a dex of useless units. Skaven, Sylvanneth and Soulblights appeal to me at the moment. I love the idea of lizardmen too but I like saurus and they don't seem all that viable at the moment

It's still early days in AoS3 but it's not that bad. There were two big tournaments last weekend. Both had 8 different armies in the top 10.
Unfortunately Gloomspite gitz, Beasts of Chaos, and Slaanesh are in a pretty bad place right now.
Everything else is playable.
On the other end of the scale Gotrek is a bit too much like he is in the books and Lumineth can be frustrating to play against.
There are rumours that we will be seeing new Skaven soonish. Soulblight are a solid choice and Seraphon have been consistently solid since day one.

Yazima wrote:
Just to clarify, I'm not looking to get into the tournament scene, I'm just interested as to the state of the games factions and competition atm. I don't want to chose an army thats the equivalent of 40k tau atm with 1 viable build and 3/4 of a dex of useless units. Skaven, Sylvanneth and Soulblights appeal to me at the moment. I love the idea of lizardmen too but I like saurus and they don't seem all that viable at the moment

It can be like that. Don't jump into a faction until you've done all of the research. And then pray to whichever faction gods you pray to that the annual GHB doesn't put you into the gutter and have to ask your opponents to tone down for you (or be ok with buying a new army every year if need be)

The benefit of AoS is that there are also tons of other fantasy mass battle rule sets out there that your army can easily apply to, or that your group can houserule to make things work.

All warhammer tournaments are inherently power-build cheesefests. But the design studio of AoS seems to be a lot more clever than 40k. 40k is a convoluted and tedious mess.

The downside is that AoS is clearly being directed by GW sales and marketing to become a hero hammer "sell the centre piece models" game. This will inevitably destroy the game mechanics. But the upside is that Warhammer The Old World will debut around then and your army will likely fairly easy carry over.

Just collect the army you love and proxy as needed. If anyone gives you trouble about proxying, they are 100% not worth the time to play against, anyway.

Yazima wrote:
Just to clarify, I'm not looking to get into the tournament scene, I'm just interested as to the state of the games factions and competition atm. I don't want to chose an army thats the equivalent of 40k tau atm with 1 viable build and 3/4 of a dex of useless units. Skaven, Sylvanneth and Soulblights appeal to me at the moment. I love the idea of lizardmen too but I like saurus and they don't seem all that viable at the moment

Skaven or Soulblight.

 Stux wrote:
Ossiarchs are not very happy with this change imo, though there are things they are less happy about (command ability restrictions specifically).

But yeah, armies built around 2 blobs of 40 Mortek guard were pretty common. Now they're stuck with one blob of 30, which with buff stacking hurts them a lot.

Arguably necessary and deserved sure, but it definitely affects them a lot.

My mate runs two squads of 20 and seems to do okay. We have some fun knock-down, drag-out fights between my Lumineth and his Skelibois.

My local meta's very competitive, and I spent most of 2019 playing AoS tournaments. I did 7 or 8 total I think? I cut my teeth on AoS playing my 20% painted, counts as heavy gloomspite at ranked tournaments with everyone else's 20% painted, counts as heavy armies

I won a single tournament in that period, set at 1k at the Meeting Engagements format its the best competitive AoS format do NOT even @ me. I had 18 practice games for that tournament, and cleanly beat everyone I faced on the day. After that, I had a brief epiphany. I had played more warhammer in the span of six weeks than some enthusiasts would play, ever, all for the sake of a win that rung empty for me at the time.

When the pandemic hit the tournaments didn't stop. People played on tabletop simulator, or at each other's houses when the lockdown restrictions eased. Right before that I had branched out into multiple other systems, coming to the (pretty obvious) conclusion that AoS isn't really suited for competitive play. Playing Underworlds, Malifaux, and Infinity will imbue you with the 'Army Scale wargames Are Silly for Tournaments' take pretty quickly. It's a take I will gladly stand by.

But! I do think both 3E AoS and 9E 40k are at the best either system has been, in terms of balance (and the farks given ABOUT balance) in, like, ever. If you settle on a decent army, there's space to be clever and catch people off guard (this also implies that some armies are not, in fact, decent. Which is the truth).

But if you want to WIN, be prepared to do some expensive meta chasing. It's a full scale wargame, after all. Those usually don't come cheap.

With w40k going the way it goes, I had the idea to crack the two starter sets for Lumineth Lords.
Now with a new edition I assume the rule books are no longer legeal or require deep game knowladge. But I am willing to start.

Having 10 lancer cavalery, 20 spea+shield infantry, and double shield officers and double eltharions, what else would I need to start playing the Lords, at a casual level in the new edtion?

There was a followup book adding more options. Your book is still valid but if you want the new units/option you might want to find a Broken Realms: Teclis or the newer Tome (either works)


Eltharion is unique so unless you want to use him for conversions you can probably sell the extra on to help fund new units.

Their archers and the flying foxes are their best units you don't have.

Karol wrote:
With w40k going the way it goes, I had the idea to crack the two starter sets for Lumineth Lords.
Now with a new edition I assume the rule books are no longer legeal or require deep game knowladge. But I am willing to start.

Having 10 lancer cavalery, 20 spea+shield infantry, and double shield officers and double eltharions, what else would I need to start playing the Lords, at a casual level in the new edtion?

Welcome to Sigmar.
You've got a decent core there. If you decide to go forward you'll definitely need a main rulebook, and either the Teclis book or the newest Tome. (I'd go with the newest tome).
I highly recommend a Scinari Cathallar. Magic is very important + she does some nasty morale tricks that can obliterate even the hardest units (provided they're subject to taking Battleshock tests - so it won't work against single models/monsters) when they plow into your spear elves.
I also really like alot of the additional units in the new tome/Teclis book. Particularly the Hurakan Wind Spirit/Severith - great model, very effective play wise, and fun to use.

I'd see about selling/trading off both your LE Tomes + the 2nd Eltharion model to get the newest tome, rule book, & the Cathallar & a Wind Spirit.

okey. I imagine the army requires some sort of mages, the way how the rules work. Fox people archers and a Scinari. Thanks all for the advice.

Are the horse lancers run as smaller 5 man units or one big block most of the time? Infantry seems to be run in large or very large blocks.

And finaly question, how obligatory is teclis, because he seems to be in every army list I get to see.

Karol wrote:

Are the horse lancers run as smaller 5 man units or one big block most of the time? Infantry seems to be run in large or very large blocks.

In the last edition I've seen them run as both at the shop. Both seemed to work for the task the different players had in mind for them. One used small units to run down other small units, single characters, snag objectives, etc. The other massed them for a main combat unit.
I've not seen them run yet this edition.
But here in 3rd you can only increase a certain # of squads beyond their starting #, based on the sze of game you're playing. So I'm assuming most of our Lumineth players are going to opt to increase the size of their archer & spear units.

Karol wrote:
And finaly question, how obligatory is teclis, because he seems to be in every army list I get to see.

He's not. I've seen plenty of good games & plenty of Lumineth victories without him.
Is he effective? Yes. Fantastic model? Certainly. But he eats up sooo many pts. And he's a bit pricey. For his $/pts you could get alot more cool options onto the table.

Good to hear it about Teclis. Very informative manged to buy a box of archers to day, no fox people sold here, but got the bowl lady was super cheap. On top of that I two lore seekers practically for for free, because they had damaged staff hands. Plus extra 20 heads to replace those on the archers.

All day after school spent undecoating the whole army and reading the army book. First game planed for this weekend. Should be fun.

Play carefully. Your army is made of paper at the end of the day. Really leverage your limited resources to boost up your defenses where it matters, and use the 2 Units Fight instead of just 1 ability Lumineth has to avoid taking damage.

Are you playing 2nd or 3rd ed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
On top of that I two lore seekers practically for for free, because they had damaged staff hands.

As you can only run 1 Loreseeker in an army it's a good thing they almost free.

With some relatively minor conversion work you could repurpose the 2nd one to be either
•a Bannerblade (just craft him a staff with a banner held in the damged hand)
•a Calugrave (again, craft him some sort of longer cool looking staff) who's just in an "action pose" vs the normal standing-there-pointing-at-scroll pose.
Maybe give him an archer head so he looks even more different from the actual Loreseeker.

Or talk it over with your opponent. Maybe they'll be cool with you running two Loreseekers?

It is reasonable to assume loreseekers are unique because of their objective-seizing ability, so if only one of the two uses it having multiples wouldn't cause issues in gameplay.

Or give it a goblet and call it a Cathallar!

Okey thanks. The important part is I got 2 for less then 2$. Could get 10 for 5$, but it would be a bit of an over kill.

Tomorrow it is going to be learning to play day. Need to figure out the whole command phase, while trying to not think I am playing w40k. All it should be fun.

Local recaster I take it?

No, 10 for $5 would be a great deal!. Sure, they'd all look identical, but you could easily proxy those as a unit or two of the Vanari Bladelords. Who btw are also battleline.
Unless they have bladelords themselves for a similar price....

Yes. He had a big pile of broken models, mostly characters. The archers I bought with my left over money from working in the summer, as suprisingly the budget for w40k stayed untouched. I think I will order another box of them too.

One big unit of cav, 2 units of archers and a 20 man strong block of spears in the middle. With the bowl lady and the lore caster behind the spears. Of course this is not a game mechanic based way to play. I just like the way how it looks on the table.

Yazima wrote:
Ariel model what with all these other 'gods' running around.

Technically, Alarielle *is* our badass Ariel model for AoS. She is literally a conglomerate being created from merging Ariel and Alarielle the Everqueen of the High Elves into a single entity. Built from the souls of two elf women who were both avatars of Isha.

I guess it would be possible to run a proxy converted to look like the old Ariel. Alarielle really doesn't appeal to me, I'm reminded too much or her old world incarnation. I'm assuming there is no Orion either in AoS?

I am dying to hear how Karol's first game of AoS went. This is the content I'm on Dakkadakka for! Are they a convert? Are they trading their GK in for more Lumineth? Did they have fun for the first time in their tabletop career?!