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Heads up, this ended up being much longer than I planned. Guess I just needed to get it all off my chest

Hey. So I saw the new Chosen Chaos marines previewed on Christmas day and was generally ... unimpressed. And judging from the internet I was not alone in this. It's not that they look like bad models, they are just aggressively meh. Not normally something to lose sleep over, after all GW produce a lot of miniatures and naturally not every one of them is going to jingle my bells, but I'm normally down for most things chaos so this was an especial let let down for me. How that happened has been weighing on my mind and with nothing better to do over the holidays, I decided to explore it a bit further.

The first and easiest point was my own high expectations following the recent BT Sword Brethren release. I absolutely LOVED those models and since they seem to fill a similar role as Chosen, mentally set them as the benchmark to measure the new chaos releases against. Regrettably they fell short, so perhaps my own expectations were just too high?

Secondly was how they compare against the older Dark Vengeance chosen from back in the day. And here is where I think the crux of the matter was. It's not that the older chosen are necessarily better models (I think they're fairly comparable in quality, the older ones being THAT good) but more that they really looked and felt like chosen. Here was a set of dudes who really stood out against the normal chaos marines and you could tell were the more experienced and "blessed". The new set of chosen really don't stand out when compared with the newer chaos marine sculpts, with only the chest piece and wargear setting them apart. Sure, at the painting table level you can tell which is which but when it comes to gaming with them, when you're a couple of feet away I think they'll all look the same. This is partly the marines fault, as the latest sculpts for the average chaos marine has them looking quite ornate.

This led me to my second thought - just what are the chaos marine sculpts supposed to represent? In the fluff traitor marines come in many many flavours, from the recently "recruited" to the old hands with 10,000 odd years of experience under their belt. (Belt may or may not be made from human skin and screams when you buckle it). That's a wide variety to capture in a single 'look' so I don't expect GW to manage it all in a single kit, but I think they've went too far on the "veteran of the eye of terror" route for the current marines, which means our new chosen just don't look the part next to their more ordinary brothers. Obviously we're won't see these guys redesigned anytime soon, but I think we could benefit from a 'downgrade kit' for the chaos marines, with different bits to make them look more like normal marines, to represent the more freshly turned.

What's dakka's thoughts on this?

NOTE - I've deliberately not talked about what wargear options the new chosen may have and how monopose they may be, I didn't want to get derailed from my main point. But as someone whose many squads of plague marines all found themselves with illegal loadouts following the latest codex, it is a concern!

My thoughts on the new chosen are similar. Admittedly, I’m not very familiar with the variety of CSMs available, but to my eye, they just look like chaos space marines. There’s nothing that instantly says to me that they are veterans, or special in any way.

I think this is a problem GWs miniature range is falling into more and more. The loyalist space marines are very bad for this (especially the Primaris range).
At a glance I can’t tell the difference between most of the Primaris troops (Intercessors, infiltrators, incursors, heavy Intercessors), and to someone unfamiliar, the tactical marines look almost the same too. The assault Intercessors standout because they have chainswords.

The problem might be that Primaris are really clean and so veterans for them look stark in contrast.

Here's a side-by-side for the CSM and you can see there are distinctions. It's just that the regular CSM are really busy.

There was always going to be the issue of the Chosen looking like normal CSM because the normal CSM had to be visually distinct enough from Imperial Marines. The basic Imperial Marines (Tacs/Intercessors) are basic because the faction is the quintessential "Your Dudes" faction that encourages customisation from a similar base template and also has the requirement of heavily working in mix and match from other Marine kits (Devastators, Hellblasters, Assault Marines) so the design aspects need to be in line for large portions of the range. The more veteran Imperial Marine troops can use lots of fancy icons, emblems, and armour to make them stand out but CSM already need that to stand out from Imperials.
So what happens when you apply the same principle to CSM as you to Imperial Marines? Chosen that sort of look the same as normal CSM but are ever so slightly spikier and maybe have some pelts/chains.

I think the op has hit the nail on the head.
They just don't stand out enough, I guess paint schemes may be an option, Black Legion Chosen could be grey and black for example, or as with Sternguard maybe you could paint the helmets a different colour, but that's all a bit loyalist for my tastes.
I like the models though.

Same problem as always:

People forget that "Chaos Space Marines" is an umbrella for everything from the relatively clean of iconography and trophies Alpha Legion to the "I'm wearing a frickin' church of eeeeeeeevil as my suit" of the Word Bearers.

Sword Brethren look so good because they're a specific unit in a specific subfaction with a specific design language. They would be an absolute dumpsterfire of a veteran unit for the generic Space Marine book. Just like Sternguard/Vanguard are for Raven Guard or Iron Hands.

There is a reason why the Legion specific stuff looks so much better. Because it's designed for a specific subfaction.

Respectfully disagree. I prefer these Chosen much more than the DV Chosen. I never liked the more "mutated" look of the DV Chosen. They just didn't fit well in my Night Lords. These will. I like what they've done with all of our infantry starting with the Raptor/Warp Talons kit, and this is a continuation of that. I understand that some people prefer the more "blessed" look though, and hope that the new Possessed will be cross compatible with our other infantry kits so that they can be kitbashed together to get as much of a "Changed by the Warp" look as anyone wants. In the end its just a matter of subjective opinion.

I also prefer these Chosen to the DV Chosen.

Daedalus hit the nail on the head: the muted response to the new models is mainly due to the lack of obvious differentiation between Chosen & normal CSM. Other than the fancy weapons there's really not much you can use to tell them apart, especially at arm's length on the tabletop, though the cues are there. Nothing wrong with the models imo, they just designed themselves into a corner, and the Possessed will (rightly) have the mutations angle locked down.

 Huron black heart wrote:
I think the op has hit the nail on the head.
They just don't stand out enough, I guess paint schemes may be an option, Black Legion Chosen could be grey and black for example, or as with Sternguard maybe you could paint the helmets a different colour, but that's all a bit loyalist for my tastes.
I like the models though.

In 3.5 'Eavy Metal gave Black Legion Chosen gold helmets & all gold trim (while other units in the army only had gold trim on their shoulders). There was sort of a visual hierarchy where the higher ranking you were in the legion, the more bling you got. Pretty hard to do that these days though with how intensely blingy CSM are.

For my Word Bearers, I'm just planning to cover Chosen armour in text while the armour of normal marines will be relatively bare in comparison. Hopefully that does the trick.

This is not a CSM-only problem, but there is so much overlap within marine units, that it was bound to happen.
The problem here, is that CSM were not designed with the future in mind : they are way too busy. If they had removed the loincloths and toned down the busy helmets (horns and golden features) on the CSM models, you'd already have much more design space for the Chosen.

Also i was very unimpressed by the BT sword brethren, which look waaaaay too busy. The problem are the capes, they are redundants with the tabards. Capes should be an officer-only attribute in general.

Also, elite melee units like chosen or sword brethren really shouldn't wield 1 handed weapons, it makes them too similar to their regular fellows. They should be 2 handers (or double power fists) only, which would give them a very specific look and purpose.

The faction which does this the best are the Custodes, where 2 handers are also guns, which help them standout as elite units.

I think they're done good jobs of differentiating regular and Elite troops with other similar forces:

These aren't the only ones either.

These Chosen... don't look any different from the CSM squad. I think that's because they've put too much into the details of the CSMs, rather than too little on the Chosen.

Tbf I build my Sternguard out of Tactical Marines. The only difference for me is the Crux shoulder pad. Imo the CSM Chosen thing is fine, I'd just consider a color difference or similar treatment. A number of the Chosen I built for my BL a few years ago are just CSMs with a bonus Chainsword iirc.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think they're done good jobs of differentiating regular and Elite troops with other similar forces:

Spoiler:

Tac Squad vs Sternguard:



Custodes vs Wardens



Warriors vs Immortals

These aren't the only ones either.

These Chosen... don't look any different from the CSM squad. I think that's because they've put too much into the details of the CSMs, rather than too little on the Chosen.

I imagine a lot of people who keep their Chosen with regular CSM will find them gradually becoming interchangeable.

I mean I use the previous Chosen as unit Champs and Exalted Champs.

Not a fan of these chosen for the same reason i'm not a fan of the basic CSM, i like my night lords to look a lot more like they did in the HH (so not a ton of trim all over them). My chosen are just gonna be truescale'd mk3-4-5 marines with the whole squad wearing bat helmets and body parts nailed to them (instead of only my squad leaders for regular CSM).

I'm also fully expecting us to get fethed with the loadout options, i might just use them for painting projects (getting the box anyway for the eldar half)

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Respectfully disagree. I prefer these Chosen much more than the DV Chosen. I never liked the more "mutated" look of the DV Chosen. They just didn't fit well in my Night Lords. These will. I like what they've done with all of our infantry starting with the Raptor/Warp Talons kit, and this is a continuation of that. I understand that some people prefer the more "blessed" look though, and hope that the new Possessed will be cross compatible with our other infantry kits so that they can be kitbashed together to get as much of a "Changed by the Warp" look as anyone wants. In the end its just a matter of subjective opinion.

Fair point. I guess the problem of a single look for the marines is further compounded by how different the legions now look from each other. I agree and also really like the look of most of the recent chaos marine releases, which was one of the reasons I had such high hopes for the new chosen. It was only after being disappointed by them that I started to think in more detail about the generic chaos marines. I'm curious, how you also happy with the mutated look of the warp talons for your night lords?

I've did a lot of kitbashing for my Death Guard force to give them a variety of looks based on my fluff for my warband. So the newer recruits are a mix of regular chaos marines and plague marine bits (less nurgle ornamentation, less mutations). The normal guys are just the normal plague marines and the veterans have lots of bits from the AoS Blightkings kit to make them look more heavily mutated. They are all run as just plague marines, but the gradual increase of mutations make me happy. I very much doubt 40k stats have enough granularity to properly differentiate between normal and veteran plague marines in the rules though.

We need to stop using CSM to refer to specifically to the black legion. These are CSM models and they are painted as black legion troops in the same way that all space marines models tend to be painted as ultramarines on launch.

The problem with CSM models painted as black legion is there is a lot of detail and not a lot of contrast due to black, gold and bone being the main colours.

I think these models are pretty good and someone better at painting than me could make them look really exciting.

I would have liked them to go back to an organic/biomechanical look like the original renegade marines for the chosen. I know it would be too much for normal chaos marines because of the catch all but chosen could have been more blessed with gifts so it would suit.

 Fergie0044 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Respectfully disagree. I prefer these Chosen much more than the DV Chosen. I never liked the more "mutated" look of the DV Chosen. They just didn't fit well in my Night Lords. These will. I like what they've done with all of our infantry starting with the Raptor/Warp Talons kit, and this is a continuation of that. I understand that some people prefer the more "blessed" look though, and hope that the new Possessed will be cross compatible with our other infantry kits so that they can be kitbashed together to get as much of a "Changed by the Warp" look as anyone wants. In the end its just a matter of subjective opinion.

Fair point. I guess the problem of a single look for the marines is further compounded by how different the legions now look from each other. I agree and also really like the look of most of the recent chaos marine releases, which was one of the reasons I had such high hopes for the new chosen. It was only after being disappointed by them that I started to think in more detail about the generic chaos marines. I'm curious, how you also happy with the mutated look of the warp talons for your night lords?

I've did a lot of kitbashing for my Death Guard force to give them a variety of looks based on my fluff for my warband. So the newer recruits are a mix of regular chaos marines and plague marine bits (less nurgle ornamentation, less mutations). The normal guys are just the normal plague marines and the veterans have lots of bits from the AoS Blightkings kit to make them look more heavily mutated. They are all run as just plague marines, but the gradual increase of mutations make me happy. I very much doubt 40k stats have enough granularity to properly differentiate between normal and veteran plague marines in the rules though.

Well I don't know about Plague Marines but for Intercessors it is plus one to both attacks and leadership and +2 points per model.

I like the new models, but I agree about generic CSM in general not really representing a theme very well. Like, I've got all these old CSM with horns and spikes. I get that their armor mutates, but why is it always horns and spikes?

I agree with the biomechanical thing. I like the idea of generic CSM just being festooned with fleshy weapons that are fused to their bodies half the time. And then just make all the aquilas and such optional on the loyalist kits so you can just use those boxes to represent newly-turned recruits.

 Fergie0044 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Respectfully disagree. I prefer these Chosen much more than the DV Chosen. I never liked the more "mutated" look of the DV Chosen. They just didn't fit well in my Night Lords. These will. I like what they've done with all of our infantry starting with the Raptor/Warp Talons kit, and this is a continuation of that. I understand that some people prefer the more "blessed" look though, and hope that the new Possessed will be cross compatible with our other infantry kits so that they can be kitbashed together to get as much of a "Changed by the Warp" look as anyone wants. In the end its just a matter of subjective opinion.

Fair point. I guess the problem of a single look for the marines is further compounded by how different the legions now look from each other. I agree and also really like the look of most of the recent chaos marine releases, which was one of the reasons I had such high hopes for the new chosen. It was only after being disappointed by them that I started to think in more detail about the generic chaos marines. I'm curious, how you also happy with the mutated look of the warp talons for your night lords?

I've did a lot of kitbashing for my Death Guard force to give them a variety of looks based on my fluff for my warband. So the newer recruits are a mix of regular chaos marines and plague marine bits (less nurgle ornamentation, less mutations). The normal guys are just the normal plague marines and the veterans have lots of bits from the AoS Blightkings kit to make them look more heavily mutated. They are all run as just plague marines, but the gradual increase of mutations make me happy. I very much doubt 40k stats have enough granularity to properly differentiate between normal and veteran plague marines in the rules though.

Warp Talons are basically Raptors that have progressed further enough down the "Raptor Cult" to become part daemon. They act animalistic and barely even talk. I consider them less "members" of my Night Lords company and more like a pack of rabid animals that they turn loose when they need to. So it's perfectly fine IMO that they're a bit "warped".

I use DV Chosen as:
Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, The one with the mace as a Dark Apostle, the ones with bolters as CSM sargeants and the one with double lighting claw with a possessed winged backpack as a double lighting claw chaos lord.

Andykp wrote:I would have liked them to go back to an organic/biomechanical look like the original renegade marines for the chosen. I know it would be too much for normal chaos marines because of the catch all but chosen could have been more blessed with gifts so it would suit.

Yeah, I miss the old body horror aspect the minis had.

As I've only started filling out my EC/FH @ beginning of 9th(I had the CSM half of shadowspear)I don't really have any old sculpts other than the bikes. So all new stuff but I do want to get some of the older sculpts to integrate into the new ones. I figured if any army is gonna be varied and diverse in look its chaos or nothing.

I really want to see the sprue to figure out how much effort is required in kitbashing/converting.

I remember when Dark Vengence first came out, everyone went nuts over the Chosen models then and loved it. These are pretty similar to that model range.

Actually, I bet a lot of people (including me) liked the Dark Vengence Chosen less after we tried to paint them. They had so many small details on such a small surface area they were so difficult to paint.

 Galas wrote:
I use DV Chosen as:
Exalted Champions, Aspiring Champions, The one with the mace as a Dark Apostle, the ones with bolters as CSM sargeants and the one with double lighting claw with a possessed winged backpack as a double lighting claw chaos lord.

I managed to pick up quite a few of the Lightning Claw guys from a "random bits" ebay auction. I added a jump pack and they are now Warp talons.

So I like the models, personally.

I think for me it will depend on how I can equip them. My old crew ran Powerswords and Bolt Pistols or All Combi-Weapons. I hope this doesn't end up like the new havoks or Terminators where they put like 2 of each combi and 1 of each CC choice in the kit, but then allow me to run 5 power swords or whatever if I want to. I mean worst comes to worst I just proxy anyways since I refuse competitive events, but still for the hobby side I do prefer for stuff to be uniform as much as possible.

Based on the picture I think they will be mono-pose or at best like the CSM tac squad. I think that they'll have 1 of each type of melee weapon (except 2 claws). Worse yet, I think that they'll get the Death Guard treatment and be limited to one of each type of weapon.