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I have seen posts on Facebook from Russian miniature makers about ways around the Paypal etc ban so as to allow people to still order from them.


I am hoping people will boycott said companies until the invasion is resolved and we see how the world community acts.

Ordinary Russians have nothing to do with the actions taken by an authoritarian government. They are suffering tremendously under these sanctions.

Ridiculous thread that should be locked. How would you have felt if your business was boycotted and livelihood ruined when the USA cooked up false reasons to invade Iraq?

Except they did not cook up false reasons.

And the reason companies are boycotting Russia to make the common people put pressure on Putin to stop. Going around those boycotts hurts the Ukraine.

The issue here is that you can't support/purchase from any Russian (or Belarusian for that matter) company without indirectly supporting the Russian government via sales taxes.

Whilst it may not be forbidden to make such purchases it will come down to your own morality. Do you think buying some miniatures and supporting a small business is more important than a proportion of your money funding the wholesale slaughter on innocent civilians?

The whole point of sanctioning and boycotting Russian businesses is to impact the lives of everyday people so that they turn on their government. It isn't done out of petty malice, it is done so that the Russian government can't claim that its business as usual and keep their people in the dark. It's rubbish for the millions of ordinary Russians but nowhere near as bad as the suffering ordinary Ukrainians are facing

General Hobbs wrote:


Except they did not cook up false reasons.

And the reason companies are boycotting Russia to make the common people put pressure on Putin to stop. Going around those boycotts hurts the Ukraine.

Non-existant wmd's.

Far as I'm aware those companies are hurting hard - unable to process payments safely as most payment systems have shut down trade to Russia.


They didn't declare war, they don't even get to choose their leader.

They are caught up in this mess as well.






I think that each person has to make their own mind up on this. To choose to support the creators as what they are, part of our community. Or to deny them trade as part of general financial sanctions as a bid to hope that the continued economic decline will force Russia's hand. Accepting that the reality of the situation is that wargame companies and their taxes are paying so little toward Russia's overall economy that it won't be noticeable on its own.
And that some of those firms could go under and not recover.



It's a hard choice. Either we maintain sanctions and both sides lose until things hopefully improve; or not.




I would caution that many payment systems are closing down which leaves less options and many remaining are more like direct bank transfers - ergo no consumer protections. In addition even if they can take money, the shipping system is becoming more difficult in getting material out of Russia. Some might even close down for the duration (or a portion of it) or close down exports until things improve.

Boy, you guys are hell-bent on creating threads that will be locked on this.

Is this going to become one of those threads where we agree that any participation in a modern economy will sleeve one’s arms in innocent blood? If so, the real question is “How sweet of minis are we talking about here?”

I think that we should boycott.

1. Every little helps to isolate the Putin regime.

2. Not buying from Russia is a personal contribution and act of solidarity with Ukraine. If you want the product and deny yourself it you are making a statement.

3. Large scale trade drops at any scale of industry sends a message and registers a protest, conversely continuing to buy also sends a message, the wrong one in my opinion.

My experience:

I made a Forgeworld purchase, my first since 2002. I was tempted to buy tetras from a Russian recaster, I had put it off again and again because it is rather naughty, but recently decided to fork out extra and buy from Forgeworld because I no longer feel I could consider buying the recast. It crossed the line enough for me to bite the bullet and pay double for the real thing. In all likelihood I would have just done without otherwise, as each source was unpalatable in its own way .Forgeworld is no cheaper as a result, but stinks less in a way, because the temptation to go elsewhere no longer applied.

I also wanted to buy some game mats, one of the sources I rather liked was Russian, so i removed them from the shortlist. I also did semi-regular business with Russian Alternative for 9th Age miniatures and no longer can do that

My contribution to the Russian economy was negligible even as a proportion of my hobby spending, but I am determined to reduce it to zero for the duration of this crisis.

It had also not escaped my attention for some time that some Russian providers in our hobby were also negatively connected to Ukraine and its ills, some for a considerable time.
I recall Brother Vinni and his 'Ukrainian slavegirl' a 28mm BDSM miniature of a thinly disguised Yulia Timoshenko.
I had purchased some of Brother Vinni's non pornographic works in the past, a couple of alt-Commissars and recognised he had a talent

One of the 3D modellers I'm a Patron of is Russian, and is highly critical of the war. I'm not removing my patronage, but this is largely driven by the fact that he can't currently access any of the money Patreon takes. If and when Russia capitulates and sanctions are lifted, he'll get my money.

 Laughing Man wrote:
One of the 3D modellers I'm a Patron of is Russian, and is highly critical of the war. I'm not removing my patronage, but this is largely driven by the fact that he can't currently access any of the money Patreon takes. If and when Russia capitulates and sanctions are lifted, he'll get my money.

That is not unfair.
It is also reasonalbe if you have a rapport with the Russian business to say that you cant buy now, but will be back later. However the boycott is still important.

Allow me to talk my own opinion down and see it still hold up.

Scenario A.
Russian hobbyist business is mostly uneffected by public pressure except the knock on effects of state sanctions. Most western customers still buy, probably citing that an innocent (the business owner) will be harmed. Though a number of customers simply want their quality toys and do not care about any other consideration. The business is small and tax contributions to the Russian state are negligible, but the business does pay for the business owner and his family.

Scenario B.
Russian hobbyist business is devastated by public pressure combined with the knock on effects of state sanctions. Most western customers refuse to buy, even though the business owner is not held personally responsible and some pledge to return if the business still exists post war. A few simply want their quality toys and do not care about any other consideration, but they are not enough to keep the business viable. The business owner now requires a new job, which may not be available, if in need of state assistance to feed his family and that maty not be enough.

Why is Scenario B better?
It certainly isn't nicer, but neither is shelling of Ukrainian towns. If small businesses across Russia suffer this way it sends a consistent message, we, the west, will not accept the situation in Ukraine. The message is powerful because it shows grass roots resolve. It makes the public opinion and that which we will project to our elected leaders clear. the scale is not relevant, what is happening to small miniatures companies will also effect vodka producers and other more mainstream goods.
This is a demonstrable collective case of the masses giving a feth, and that matters more than it appears.

I was going to email the Russian store I order from but the emailed me first. Last week they said I could still pay with paypal. I just need to expect an additional 30day of shipping time.
They've never done me wrong.

But it does make me wonder why I shouldn't be able to buy for that Russian store. Europe, as far as I have read is still buying fuel from Russia and would seem to me to constitute a larger sum of money than my model purchase.
So maybe if Europe, all of Europe, stops buying Russian fuel I'll see things differently.

I do hope this regional conflict comes to a diplomatic end sooner than later.

I'd personally be happy to continue buying from small business exporters. Why? Because they make up sweet FA of Russia's economy and I don't believe they're capable of putting a great deal of pressure on the Russian government to pull out of Ukraine anyway.

Most of Russia's exports aren't small businesses, they're large scale businesses in fossil fuels, wheat, raw metals, stuff like that, not Sergey sitting in his basement making miniatures (or whatever other small business Sergey may have).

Recent years have shown that even western governments are quite capable of completely ignoring portions of the population, I'm sure Russia will do the same to the small proportion of small business owners that rely on overseas sales.

There's the "taking a moral stand" aspect, but I think my desire to support small business would outweigh a moral desire to hurt Russia as a whole.

That said, I don't currently buy anything from small businesses in Russia anyway (at least not that I'm aware of). If I did and it were still possible I'd be happy to keep supporting them.

Bruh.

Russian miniature makers are such miniscule part of their economy as to be completely irrevelant.

General Hobbs wrote:


Except they did not cook up false reasons.

And the reason companies are boycotting Russia to make the common people put pressure on Putin to stop. Going around those boycotts hurts the Ukraine.

Ah... as glad as I am to see Hussein gone, as glad as the Iraqi people were to see him gone immediately after the invasion... no, Hussein was NEVER involved in Al-Qaeda. Saying he was to justify the invasion was, indeed, a lie.

TECHNICALLY saying Iraq had WMD was not a lie. Chemical weapons are WMDs, and Iraq had a plentiful supply from it's petrochemical industry. Nukes, on the other hand, were still some decades away...

EDIT: And let's face it. The average Russian citizen has about as much chance of influencing or overthrowing Putin as the average Iraqi did of influencing or overthrowing Putin.

Want to put pressure on Putin? Look at who his supporters are, those oligarchs who helped put him in power. Boycott THEIR businesses; sieze THEIR assets. Make THEM squeal enough and sooner or later they'll turn on Putin. Especially if we promise to give their stuff back if they DO overthrow Putin and put an end to this mess with the oil in the Crimea.

Boycotting Russian model makers is like boycotting Canadian Maple Syrup because Trudeau is a pseudo-dictator who has placed cruel and unusual punishment and attacked them with the police, of a portion of his people without judicial oversight or even criminal charges being made against the majority of them.

It is not the Canadian Maple Syrup makers fault.

It's not a boycot. It's a special financial action.

 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
Boycotting Russian model makers is like boycotting Canadian Maple Syrup because Trudeau is a pseudo-dictator who has placed cruel and unusual punishment and attacked them with the police, of a portion of his people without judicial oversight or even criminal charges being made against the majority of them.

It is not the Canadian Maple Syrup makers fault.

The difference there is that Maple Syrup is 132% of Canada's GDP, so you'd bring the country to its knees in about 5 seconds flat.

I don't knowingly buy from Israeli companies, so it'd be pretty hypocritical if I continued to buy from Russian ones.

That said, since Brother Vinni was mentioned specifically, my understanding is that, although he is originally from St Petersburg, he currently lives in (and his company is based in) Slovakia. If that is the case, then it doesn't seem right to boycott his minis based on his place of birth.

(I'm also chuckling at the idea that any of BV's minis could be unironically described as "pornographic"...)

Of course, as I'm not planning any mini purchases from any company for the next few months, this is probably all academic anyway.

not buying from russian model makers will have no big impact at all

while buying or supporting the ukrainian ones might (they need every cent at the moment)

on the other hand, no one knows how big the impact for the 40k community will be if russia will be disconnected from the internet and wahapedia going down

 Duskweaver wrote:

(I'm also chuckling at the idea that any of BV's minis could be unironically described as "pornographic"...)

What would you call the fething fish people couple or the naked tortured girls then?

I also recall the Timoshenko one. I'm all for takes on political figures in wargames (I have a Trump ogre, world leaders objective marker from Spectre, Obama Jedi from HF, etc.), but that was really in bad taste and IIRC was realeased just after she was jailed by the Putin lackey.

 Overread wrote:

They didn't declare war, they don't even get to choose their leader.

They are caught up in this mess as well.

I think that each person has to make their own mind up on this. To choose to support the creators as what they are, part of our community.

And they will have a range of opinions. Some will genuinely support the invasion. Others will have to either make no or positive comments because saying anything critical (including it is a war) can get you sentenced to 15 years in prison, or ironically a term of service in the military and you get to be part of the invasion.

The Russian regime like all authoritarian set ups ultimately is more worried by its population than anything else (or in Russia's case maybe they are more worried about the Chinese). And such regimes are brittle, if the population hits a turning point things snowball fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iraq

tneva82 wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:


Except they did not cook up false reasons.

Non-existant wmd's.

Normally I wouldn't get involved in this but it does have some relevance here. In essence what do you know about a regime? With Iraq and WMD we (belligerent countries) genuinely though Iraq had some in the form of chemical weapons. We thought that because the intelligence gathering focused on the Iraq government and they thought they had some. It transpired they weren't getting accurate reports from fearful subordinates. A similar line came from the former head of Mossad when asked how they missed the Arab Spring. His answer was they knew what the Arab governments knew, and those governments didn't see it coming.

Now we had inspectors (who we comically surveilled) who said nope, they are all gone, but because we wanted to invade we were inclined to believe the Iraq government intelligence instead of our own inspectors.

Back to Russia, what do the population know? If we stop buying from Russian (re-)casters, would they understand why? Do they know what the government knows or only what they are told? Are they predisposed to believe the government line for self preservation? If we all stopped buying would they get the message or would they think we are brainwashed sheep that can't see they have to destroy half the country to save it from their Jewish Nazis?

 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
Boycotting Russian model makers is like boycotting Canadian Maple Syrup because Trudeau is a pseudo-dictator who has placed cruel and unusual punishment and attacked them with the police, of a portion of his people without judicial oversight or even criminal charges being made against the majority of them.

It is not the Canadian Maple Syrup makers fault.

No, that level of false equivalency is unjustifiable.
<Insert leader here> has done <insert bad thing>.
You can justify censure of most if not all countries by this logic.

Trudeau has done some monsterous action of late, but he hasn't opened slave camps, sponsored terrorism or invaded a sovereign nation with no excuse.
The answer to Trudeau is via the internal democratic process, Canadians elected him, Canadians can choose to be rid of him in time, or confirm otherwise. He also has not won yet, he silenced his detractors via dodgy means but the courts can still have the final say on the protestors and the legislature can turn on him in due course.
Trudeau says mean words in parliament to his opponents that are not buying his rhetoric, Putin assassinates his.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:
I don't knowingly buy from Israeli companies, so it'd be pretty hypocritical if I continued to buy from Russian ones.

Fair enough, many people consider Israel fairly high on the list of states that cross the line. It is one of the more devisive political topics possible as to others Israel can do no wrong.

 Duskweaver wrote:

That said, since Brother Vinni was mentioned specifically, my understanding is that, although he is originally from St Petersburg, he currently lives in (and his company is based in) Slovakia. If that is the case, then it doesn't seem right to boycott his minis based on his place of birth.

Of course, as I'm not planning any mini purchases from any company for the next few months, this is probably all academic anyway.

That does muddy the waters a lot.
A small miniatures business with a blatant anti Ukrainian bent outside of Russia.
vs small businesses in Russia that have no axe to grind.

 Duskweaver wrote:

(I'm also chuckling at the idea that any of BV's minis could be unironically described as "pornographic"...)

Many of them are not. I have some, nice sculpts and quality casts.

 Orlanth wrote:
No, that level of false equivalency is unjustifiable.

Yeah, comparing the PM of Canada to a guy who set off a terrorist attack in his own capital to justify a bloody fifteen-year war in Chechnya that only ended when he decided to pay the leader of Chechnya billions of dollars to stop fighting is basically saying 'I know nothing of what I speak.' A lot of these comparisons are laughable, but it gets downright disheartening when people start comparing being told to wear a mask to launching cruise missiles at children's hospitals because you can't win a conflict militarily so you just start killing civilians until they surrender or aren't there anymore. If anyone has a problem with it, just slip them some polonium-210 and they'll shut right up. Or just have the police gun them down in broad daylight and then charge them with tax evasion a few years later.

I don't think Orlanth and I have ever agreed on anything, yet here we are...

To the actual thread topic, it might be a moot point. With payment processors and internet providers pulling out of the country, I'm not sure someone could reach a mini-maker in Russia at the rate we're going, let alone pay them. I doubt any freelance miniature makers in Russia are remotely important in the grand scheme of nations, but world affairs have a habit of trampling tiny people underfoot regardless of whether it's right or wrong.

I know Hydracast is shut down but he's experimenting with basically a bank transfer service (not sure if its worked out I only saw it on FB). Otherwise he can't use paypal or other payment services.

On Patreon I'm seeing the same pattern with multiple creators from Russia having their funds withheld and being unable to access them or webstore sites closing access to russian accounts so customers can't buy the models either.


A few of them are quite vocal about the pains they are enduring
https://www.patreon.com/posts/models-on-are-63572017


https://www.patreon.com/posts/keeping-things-63506848


Meanwhile I also know several creators who are based in the Ukraine who have shut down or had to flee the country. Signum Games appear to be holding out; but groups like 3Dartdigital have (I believe) now all fled the country/moved into southern regions (one of the artists has been pretty active posting from the start on their discord).

Heck I've a list of at least 4 creator groups who made statements from the Ukraine near the start of the war here https://printhunter.org/2022/02/25/previews-for-march-and-model-news/




If nothing else I would think this reinforces to us wargamers that there's no "winner" in this war. It's bad on both fronts and brings only pain and misery no matter what country the people live within.

The_Real_Chris wrote:


Back to Russia, what do the population know? If we stop buying from Russian (re-)casters, would they understand why? Do they know what the government knows or only what they are told? Are they predisposed to believe the government line for self preservation? If we all stopped buying would they get the message or would they think we are brainwashed sheep that can't see they have to destroy half the country to save it from their Jewish Nazis?

Ok how to explain this. There are four groups of players in each western country. These players have widely different goals and power levels but none can be entirely ignored.

Player 1 - The government. This includes political elites and political influencers. They will be alarmed at what Putin has done and what Putin might do next but are largely self interested.
Player 2 - The Civil Service. This includes the infrastructure players. They think more long term and are looking at the consequences of a bouyant belligerent and successful Russia (and China) in five or ten years.
Player 3 - The Corporations. And the financial elite. Perhaps the most influential player, they don't give a feth so long as they make money. You can be assured that even in the strictest sanctions the elites will get the luxuries they want. So we might boycott Russian oil and vodka, but the elites will still get their caviar. We might not even boycott the oil and the financiers properly if it meant the wrong feth in an expensive suit loses a %.
Player 4 - The Public. By far the weakest player and most seasonal in their opinions and normally influence strongly by the other 3. However the public is an elemental force and once mobilised can dictate terms. Government in particular ignore the electorate at their peril.

So knowing this how do consumer boycotts works.

First its a tide of small lost transactions that has large effect. Boycotts can and do work, and most are grass root delivered. While other players normally trigger a boycott it is the public who chooses to see it through. If boycotts were toothless cancel culture would be toothless.
Now 'cancelling' Putin is futile, we know that and so does Putin. But our little bit of boycott sends a message to our own governments: go soft on Putin at your peril. The opposition will comment on it, and it may hurt you in future ballots.
Corporations are largely shameless but can at least pretend to show shame when a movement to cancel takes hold. Look at the Eu and its wishy washy approach to sanctions due to reliance on Russian gas. Its the corporations that cant afford the pipe to be cut off, but the public wants stronger and robust response which is putting pressure on governmental leaders which may in time overcome corporate pressure.

So where does this come down to miniatures?
It doesn't and never will, we each do our bit. Some might stop buying minis from Russia, others might stop buying Russian vodka. Others may claim either and lie about it. In either case stockists can get hot under the collar if they continue to stock items the public are riled against, and governments might lose votes.
Both government and corporations gauge this from two sources, first what the public media is saying, which they can control but only up to a certain point, grass roots boycotts/cancel culture is very powerful. second they look for proof, people talking boycott is one thing, people doing boycott is another altogether. If Russian miniatures companies go under because average Joes in the west aren't buying that is a valid statistic, and one that can be brought about with small scale changes. It shows that the attitude of western consumers is or is not hot air.
Markets look for changes to microindustries as they likely represent a true indicator of public intensity. established luxury industries will also be looked at, and I would not be surprised if traditional Russian luxuries remain broadly uneffected just like they did in the cold war.
If there was to be a drop in caviar sales it would mean the elites are being willing to do without and that sanctions provisions are more robust than usual.

It is never really about denying Putin tax rubles.

This certainly isn’t a political thread…

DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
This certainly isn’t a political thread…

It's certainly more civilized than most political discussions the past few decades, though.

That's because most people are not bothering to post in it because it's going to get locked, not because people suddenly can talk about things like adults. So far US politics have come up 3 times and we're not even one page in.