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If we’re simply fixing Guard now.

1) I’d change our Regiment Trait selection to:

- Custom Regiments may select 3 custom regiment traits.
- Named Regiments may select 1 custom trait in addition to their own.
- Commissars taken in <Militarum Tempest> detachments gain the <Militarum Tempestus> keyword.

2) I’d change the Balance Dataslate Aircraft Matched Play rule to 2 Aircraft units not models. The only 2 factions with aircraft units is us and Tau, which Tau’s only one is the Remora Drone.

3) This is harder, cause there’s a ton of rules or point costs that need to be changed. Some could be very easily done by GW but just changing some numbers in the current FAQ or Balance Dataslate. Such as changing Tank Orders range from 6” to 18”, the same as a vox-caster. Cause a vehicle should have a basic radio.

Probably the 3rd quick change I’d like to see is vehicle heavy weapon costs going to the same as the infantries. For example: A Leman Russ pays 15 points for a heavy bolter whereas an Infantry Squad pays 10 points. This would affect a ton of our vehicles. So, it’s probably the other simple fix we can quickly apply.

 Kanluwen wrote:

No thanks. It's already dumb that Mortars and Missile Launchers are available to every infantry/veteran squad. Or that these squads are carrying the equivalent of a dug-in and emplaced weapons team with them.

You literally chose the worst examples. Missile Launchers are shoulder fired. Mortars don’t weight that much. You’re thinking of the tripod weapons HB, autocannon, and lascannon.

 alextroy wrote:
For those of us taking notes, what is this best choice Infantry Squad that everyone will be taking

The best choices are:
- Special: Plasma/Melta
- Heavy: Heavy bolter/Lascannon
- Sergeant: Plasma pistol and power sword
- Take the vox

 Kanluwen wrote:
Jeez, it's like the bloody War Convocation all over again when it comes to the "free upgrades".

When there's basically one must-take option that is extremely expensive, that's what is going to be taken. It was going to be taken whether it was free or paid for.

I really hate this change. It basically made every <Regiment> infantry unit that's not an Infantry Squad useless. Why should I bother taking a Veteran Squad now? After factoring in all the costs for their upgrades that's basically 2 Infantry Squads with all the free wargear options. Command Squads might still be situationally viable, but I'd have like to see their Regimental Standard and Medi-kit become free too.


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brainpsyk wrote:
Overall, this dataslate was meh, as overall Guard is flat-to-down after the changes.

- Auto-wounding on 6s was a good change for the army, but far from the best. Between the free upgrades and wounding on 6s, it increases overall output of Infantry squads. Agreed that wounding Knights and tanks seems quite wacky, but it does relieve the pressure on the tanks to kill EVERYTHING. Now infantry stand a chance of plucking those couple wounds off units with something besides the TCs, and are actually worth shooting.

- Manticores, LRBTs and TCs actually got worse, because of the Armor of Contempt affects all the heavy hitters, and every shot that used to hit now takes an AP penalty. While 1/4 shots auto wounds, it used to wound on a 2 or 3 anyway. This wouldn't be so bad, but the majority of the armies in the game are powered armor. In fact, the Basilisk got hit the hardest, as it was already a steaming pile of poop, this change just gave it a warm diarrhea gravy.

- Guard is more effective against non-Powered Armor armies, but to be honest, this isn't going to help Guard against Custodes, Tau, Eldar or Nids, or even DE as those armies are playing an entirely different game than Guard.

Completely agreed. This basically just reinforces the fact that Demolishers are the only good Russ type.

Honestly, I'm just going to keep play my pure infantry Scion lists. They're loving Hammer of the Emperor, and Lambdan Lions don't really care about the marine armour buff.


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Dirk Reinecke wrote:

Wait what, they could always take 4 special weapons <confused face>

If Scion Squads number 10 models they get 4 special weapon slots.


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 CommunistNapkin wrote:
In all seriousness, why exactly do so many folks want to bring back platoons? I remember in 5-7th editions, I loved using platoons and thought they were great in the context of those editions. But in 9th, I don't really understand what problem would be fixed by recreating platoons. We can take lots of every force organization slot very easily with the current detachment system.

Many players play pure infantry Guard. That requires 3 battalions to field 18 infantry squads, which costs 6 CP and requires a minimum of 6 mandatory HQ slots.

Bringing back Platoons means you could fit that into a single detachment. Meaning you've just saved a ton of CP and points from HQ tax. Though I would prefer we bring back the old 3rd - 3.5 edition Platoons. Not the 5th - 7th edition ones.

Just give the Special Weapon Squad a pre-game move like Dominions and make them Fast Attack. Might actually make them useful.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thank god they nerfed the hell out of Scions. I was about havin heart palpitations over here, thinking these boy's might actually be worth half a wet fart, but thankfully GW swooped in and altered the Rules that altered the rules. The already altered rules.

Now we can go back to debating the merits of further nerfing Custodes.

This is what GW should have done with Hammer:

“If every unit in your army has the Astra Militarum keyword, then each time a <Regiment> or <Tempestus Regiment> model from your army makes a ranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ubi8pr/meta_monday_42422_new_dataslate_in_the_house/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

The results are in, even after the balance dataslate we still have a 26% winrate. It's almost like Hammer of the Emperor was completely overblown by the community and wasn't a massive buff like they hoped...

The free wargear is just as stupid. As players will only take the best and all options. Suddenly every squad has a rare plasma gun and pistols.

It also does nothing for durability. So you could take 18 infantry squads all with plasma and lascannons, but after T1 or T2 you've lost 66% of them. Cause they die to a still breeze.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I disagree. Seeing Guard armies without Heavies/Specials in their squad was more stupid.

This is actually more thematic. There are trillions of Guardsmen. There's dozens of stories with ranks of Guardsmen with nothing but lasguns. Supported by tanks and artillery. Obviously the real answer is somewhere in the middle, there should be some Guardsmen with special weapons.

Certainly the rule could have been implemented better, or the weapons could be made more equal in value so there weren't "auto-takes", but on the whole it's an improvement.

They should have just reduced the costs of the bad special weapons. Make the Flamer and Grenade Launcher 3 points instead of 5. Then drop the Infantry Squad back to 50 points. Maybe Power Swords could have different costs depending on WS, like how Plasma and Melta are 5/10, could make Power Swords 3/5. Also make Bolt Pistols 1 point, as 2 points is pretty bad for something with half the firepower of a Bolter.

Alright. I did my quick fixes for the current codex. It's a lot more than 3.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sWyXhpYNt8JsV8kvHWYmcTKMzdhDTEN6o8KIDlz0UYs/edit?usp=sharing

brainpsyk wrote:

Quick read, overall I like it, but it doesn't go far enough, it's an incremental improvement when we're not even playing the same game.

It's not suppose to be meta, it's purely there to bump us to at least 40% until the new codex supersedes it.

To that end, the points cost on the LRBTs is still WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY to high. A LRBT with battlecannon has HALF the output of the Onager, and that's including Grinding Advance, and the Onager isn't even that good (but it is a middle-of-the-meta unit). Even a LRBT Demo Cannon only kills 2-3 marines (~2 with AoC). Sixes auto-wound wasn't near enough, and AoC was a far bigger nerf to guard than 6sAW was a buff. So Grinding Advance needs to go away, then buff the output from there.

Dunecrawler with the blasters into a marine squad kills 1.778 marines. The LRBT kills 1.792 marines, cause you have to factor the hull HB as well.

brainpsyk wrote:
I disagree on the 50points for a guard unit. The problem is durability, and just being 50 points doesn't change that. Paying for wargear just means you don't take the wargear, and our output is pathetic enough already.

I've somewhat improved durability. You could take Cadians and say Wilderness Survivors. So when you're not MMMing you get Light Cover.

 JNAProductions wrote:
What Onager do you compare the Leman Russ to?

Because a Russ is definitely more durable (T8 2+ is miles better than T7 3+/5++), but what weapons are you comparing?

In terms of durability brainpsyk has answered that.

"For tank durability, again I use 3 eradicators, as that's the meta choice, and is about the same output and cost as 3 attack bikes. So 3 Eradicators shooting at:
- a LRBTs (T8, AV2): median 5 +/-3 for std deviation, avg 5.0 damage
- Onager Dunecrawler (T7, AV3, 5++): median 5 (+/-3 std deviation), avg 5.3 damage.

Now using 4 Lascannon shots:
- a LRBTs (T8, AV2): median 3 +/-2 for std deviation, avg 3.6 damage
- Onager Dunecrawler (T7, AV3, 5++): median 3 (+/-2 std deviation), avg 3.5 damage.

With doctrines, the AP goes up, so the Onager actually does better than the LRBT, since the Onager has the 5++."

For output I measured the Russes against their closest counterparts. Vanquisher to the neutron laser, which is still superior but I don't want to make the Vanquisher any cheaper. Even if you used that 5 point difference to give the Vanquisher a lascannon it still loses against all targets.

Everything else to the blasters as that's the best option. Eradicator and Exterminator, with the heavy bolter also considered, are roughly equal to the blaster. Though with armour of contempt the Exterminator might have to go down to Vanquisher levels, as it's AP was entirely neutered. Only when you start getting to the other variants does that damage start to go up, thought the Battle Tank might need to go down too as it's barely better than an overcharged Executioner now too, which is why those variants cost more.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Giving a 135ppm (Demolisher) unit a non degrading statline? No thank you. Especially when it has 2D6 S10 AP3 d6dam shooting. (With double shoot, or flat 12 with full payload). Yeah, I'll go ahead and say no thank you to that. I can MAYBE see it on a Superheavy like a Baneblade, but the Lehman russ shouldn't be the hardest thing on the battlefield. Hell, according to the fluff, a sufficiently pissed off space marine can rip the turret off of one with bare hands.

Demolishers are 150 points. You have to pay 15 for the heavy bolter. Also, full payload can't be used on Russes.

 waefre_1 wrote:

Good to see your list has gotten even dumber since the last time you posted it. Will your next one be everything other than Guardsmen and LRBTs?

Whilst I don't agree with everything on his list, Chimeras are definitely trash. Why take a Chimera when your infantry are faster and can go through terrain? Just take more infantry.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's a fun idea, lets stop focusing on the Heavy units of the Guard, since vehicles are uniformly trash along most factions of 9th. Let's focus on making guard's light/fast attack stuff actually good. Make Salamanders and Chimeras have the Assault transport rule, make Sentinels BS3+ and give the Hellhounds an "ignores Cover rule. I don't care how good your shield is. Chem cannons and Melta Cannons shouldn't have to argue with rolls.

Why would you make Sentinels BS3+? There's no lore reason for that at all. Sentinels are also one of the best options Guard still have left. Incredibly durable for their point cof sts, decently mobile, and can count for a ton of obsec models with the Cadian stratagem. The only issue with Sentinels current is their weapon upgrade costs. Drop each of those by 5 points and they would be fine, IE:

- Heavy flamer or autocannon: 5 point upgrade.
- Missile launcher, lascannon, or plasma cannon: 10 point upgrade.

Also just buff the Sentinel Chainsword to give +1 Attack like regular Chainswords would be nice too.

Salamanders aren't transports. They're also Legends. If they do come back, they should be somewhere between Sentinels and Hellhounds. Faster than both, more durable than Sentinels but less durable than Hellhounds, with twice the firepower as Sentinels.

Hellhounds could be fixed by points, something around:
- Bane Wolf: 85 points.
- Devil Dog: 90 points.
- Hellhound: 100 points.

Would make them okay. If the Bane Wolf chem cannon was increased to 12 inch range that would be nice. Inferno cannon to 18 would be nice as well. Then the Devil Dog melta cannon to heavy 3, which could probably make it go up to around 95 - 100 points.

The Chimera would be more useful when MMM is nerfed. That really is its biggest issue right now. I'd also do the same thing as Sentinels and reduce its weapon upgrade costs by 5 points. Meaning a double heavy bolter or heavy flamer Chimera is 80 points rather than 85 points.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I will say, worst of any of the factions, save Space MahReens, Guard have too much worthless bloat.

Units that serve little to zero purpose:
Chimeras
Deathstrikes
Ogryns (Why when you could take Bullgryns instgead?)
Platoon Leaders
Astropaths
Wyrdvane Psykers
Base Taurox
All their named Characters (looking at YOU RAINE) Except PASK
Commissars
Lord Commissars
All their Flyers except Valks
All Baneblades
75% of the LRBT catalogue
Master of Ordinance
Fleet Officers
Servitors
Tech Priests
Medics
Vox operators
Hydras
The majority of their FW stuff

Half their entire book is trash or just above the line.

- Chimeras: Already covered above.
- Deathstrikes: There's no saving them right now. They need to be completely redone. Either make it a traditional weapon, one-shot only and devastating damage. Keep the mortal wound thing but make it more devastating. Even some kind of VP generation could be interesting, maybe 3 primary points on a turn it's successfully fired. Anyway GW choose to go, they have to make it more reliable to actually fire in the first place.
- Ogryns: Presumably GW will give both Ogryns and Bullgryns a 5+++ save, as well as the new Bodyguard ability and remove the Ogryn Bodyguard datasheet. Ogryns at 20 points per model would be alright with that and their current datasheet.
- Platoon Leaders: They're fine at the moment, they do exactly what they need to. Provide orders. Though presumably GW will make them some kind of secondary HQ choice with RR1 to Wound auras. Like SM Lieutenants.
- Astropaths: Are also fine at the moment, everyone takes them over Primaris Psykers and Wyrdvanes. That's why they keep getting nerfed. In fact they've become even more useful for denying Armour of Contempt armies light cover. If anything, Guard just need better Psychic Powers in general.
- Wyrdvane Pskyers: They are trash. A point drop to 5 points per model could make them useful, either as cheap batteries for the stratagem or the ability to field units of 6 for 30 points for the +2 to cast. One way to fix them is remove the single D6 and just leave them as regular Pskyers, maybe allow them to give their modifier to a nearby Primaris instead of using it for themselves.
- Taurox needs to be far cheaper. If it was 75 points it wouldn't be terrible. Better firepower and speed to the Chimera, but less transport capacity and durability.
- Most named characters need to be cheaper as well, or just have better stat-lines. Yarrick for example should be around 80 - 90 points, not 105.
- Commissars and Lord Commissars either need to be better support characters or better fighting characters. Lord Commissars could go up to 5 wounds and 4 attacks, then they might be okay for 40 points. Means they can actually do something with their power sword or power fist.
- Other flyers, again, either massive point drops or better weapons.
- Baneblades: Need BS3+, if a Tank Commander gets it they should too. They also need some kind of -1 damage, 2+ save (still stupid the Russ got a 2+ and not the Baneblade), and more wounds. Sponsons could also be free, and the additional sponson option removed.
- Russes: Either need to be both cheaper and have better point costs between variants. Though, I assume GW will buff their weapons in the next codex. From rumours they're getting +1 to Hit on turret weapons as well as the ability for turret weapons to shoot outside engagement range. If they also get -1 damage and 14 wounds they'd be okay.
- Master of Ordinance: Should be able to buff any Artillery unit, as well as have their minimum range reduced to 18 inch.
- Fleet Officers: If aircraft get better than they'd become more useful.
- Servitors: Honestly, they should just become additional models to all Tech-Priest and Tech-Marine characters. As well as make those units repair ability more reliable. So each Servitor with a servo arm could add +1 to a repair roll, so instead of D3 you could repair flat 3 wounds if you have 2 Servitors accompanying your Tech-Priest.
- Tech-Priest profile should just match the Ad-Mech one. If they get the ability to give a +1 to Hit to Guard vehicles that would be nice.
- Medics: All they need is the Apothecary treatment. 6 inch aura of 6+++, heals D3 lost wounds on a single model, then a stratagem to revive models. Say D3 Guardsmen or 1 Ogryn.
- Voxes: Should be treated exactly like Data Tethers.
- Hydras: Their statline and weapons are fine, all that needs to change is their weapon ability. Get rid of the debuff against non-flyers. Keep the +1 against flyers and they'd be fine.
- FW stuff either need massive point drops, better statlines, or better synergy with the rest of the codex. Such as inclusion with stratagems.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My solution to IG has been to play 4th edition with the excellent 3.5 book, as well as the sub lists like Armored Company and the artillery company lists, Armored Battlegroup (the dilemmas for a tank lover!), Elysians, etc.

What I like to do is use the 5th edition codex, with the 3.5 edition codex and armoured company doctrines.

brainpsyk wrote:

Ummm... what? 4 Autocannons is fine? For 115 points? With AP1? On a T6 chassis?

You're better off with 4 heavy bolters, for like 80 points. Anything that gets exposed in 9th is dead, and it's not like the Hydra is arty that stays hidden. The hydra has to pop out... and survive.

4 72 inch Autocannons, with +1 or +2 to Hit against Aircraft. That way no debuff against ground targets. You’re also forgetting it also has a Heavy Bolter as well. It’s also 110 points, not 115. The only thing making it bad now is the fact you’re hitting everything without Fly on a 5+, remove that and it’s actually not too bad. It’s 10 points per T6 wound, and has 5 heavy weapons.

Where are you getting 4 Heavy Bolters for 80 points from? A 3 Heavy Bolter HWS is 50 points, 2 of them is 100 for 6.

brainpsyk wrote:
A 4xAC hydra plus HB does about 2.5 damage vs. Intercessors (not including the +1 vs. flyers, but including HotE). A decent unit gets a 40% return on it's points value brings the Hydra up to 62.5. 80 points is almost 25% overcosted compared to the output and durability of a Tau hammerhead with an Ion Cannon and 2xACB, even accounting for the points differential.

I didn't say it was good, just that in terms of everything else in the codex it'd be okay if it was able to shoot at ground targets without the debuff. Comparing it to anything outside the codex is of course going to show how bad Imperial Guard in general need a new codex.

Though, I could imagine GW making it D3 damage. Look at the size of those autocannons. Should have similar damage to the Predator one.

From the new Knight codex profiles. Looks like Multi-laser is moving to Heavy 4 and Battle Cannon definitely looks like it will be S8 AP-2 D3

^ this. To make Guard useful right now we need massive point drops. Like 10 - 20% across the board.

To be honest. I don't see Commissars morale abilities being buffed at all in the next codex. Look at Orks, basically was neutered of all their morale abilities. If Commissars get buffed I predict GW will just make them better combat characters with the support abilities they currently have.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Yes, lets make Conscripts with auto-wounds on 6s 3ppm instead of 5. Lets make Guardsmen who get free plasma rifles and HWTs 5ppm. Lets make BANEBLADES 350ppm. That's silly. Even for me.

You really misunderstand me sometimes, did I say anything about removing the 5 point floor? No.

I’m purely talking about internal balance. You made a list of units that were useless previously. I’m basically suggesting things like those need a 10 - 20% decrease.

Also, Baneblades would still be gak at 350 points. They’re too large to move around 9th edition terrain layouts. Do less damage than 2 Leman Russ tanks and have less durability than 2 Leman Russ tanks. Even at 350 they’d still be more expensive than Stormsurges. Lol.

Have you not seen my document? That I’ve posted countless times, even have an entire thread dedicated to it, or my other posts saying what the point costs of things should be. That you’ve actually replied to.

To refresh your memory here’s some examples of what I said:

Leman Russ:
- Vanquisher: 110 points (with hull heavy bolter)
- Eradicator and Exterminator: 115 points (with hull heavy bolter)
- Executioner: 120 points (with hull heavy bolter)
- Battle Tank: 125 points (with hull heavy bolter)
- Demolisher and Punisher: 130 points (with hull heavy bolter)

Hellhound:
- Bane Wolf: 85 points
- Devil Dog: 90 points
- Hellhound: 100 points.

Artillery:
- Basilisk, Deathstrike, and Wyvern: 110 points
- Manticore: 130 points

Transports:
- Taurox: 75 points

Basically all Guard vehicles are incredibly overcosted for what they do. Not once have I ever suggested to go below the 5 point floor.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Opinions Needed:

I mentioned this pages ago, and I'd really like to know what you guys think. Commissars suck right now, especially as they take up slots. How would you guys feel about making them unit upgrades like in 3rd-7th edition?

For example, Infantry squad: 9 Imperial Guard Infantry, 1 Sergent, 0-1 Commissar.

Ideally I would go back to 3rd edition. Where Command Squads were HQ choices that included the Officer, 4 Veterans, and could take a regular Commissar as an additional model. I also wouldn't mind other regimental advisors becoming unit upgrades to the Command Squad again as well. Such as Astropaths, Officers of the Fleet, and the Ogryn Bodyguard. What does this do:

- It forces players to be more conservative with their Command Squads instead of using them as better Special Weapon Squads. Because now you're also risking your Officer's lives, as well as any additional models you purchased.
- It would give Command Squads character protection, as they character ability applies to an entire unit not just a single model.
- It would cutdown on our Elite slot bloat. That's minimum 2 Elite choices foldered into a single HQ choice, potentially 5 if you extend it to the others suggested.

Sadly though, I don't think GW will do that. What I think GW will do with Commissars is:
- Make Commissars HQ choices, rather than Elites.
- Remove Lord Commissars as a datasheet, instead that will become a character upgrade like Chapter Command. Likely called something like Regimental Command.
- Buff the Commissars datasheet to be similar to the current Lord Commissar one.
- No change to their morale abilities, look at Orks, another horde army who lost all their morale abilities. Commissars morale buffs will remain as they are, but their combat ability will probably get better. To a point where they're the best human fighters in our codex. Imagine the Canoness statline except with a 4+ save and 5++ invul.


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 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
5 point floor is sort of a silly concept, I’m all for removing it.

I don’t mind the 5 point floor. The issue is the difference between single digit point models, IE: 5 point model against a 6 or 7 point model is a massive jump in power level. What GW needs to do to actually make the 5 point floor viable is to start pushing unit point costs up, anything that’s underperforming gets either no point increase or a smaller one.

Execute with a RR on a D3. Then we can get rid of the Fight to the Death stratagem.

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brainpsyk wrote:

Unfortunately, the game has changed since 3rd edition. Having a squad means the character is targetable, and with the lethality of 9th, that squad will just get picked up. So people will either 1 - just hide them all game so the extra models become a tax or b - just not take them.

Having a single character in a unit gives the entire unit LoS. Which is why bringing back old school command squads would work.

No, you have split keywords. All you need is something like:

- KEYWORDS (COMPANY COMMANDER): CHARACTER, INFANTRY, OFFICER, COMPANY COMMANDER
- KEYWORDS (VETERANS): INFANTRY, VETERANS, COMMAND SQUAD

Done, now the CC provides the entire squad LoS and only counts as 3 VP for assassinate. Datasheets with split keywords like this already exist such as Commander Shadowsun.

 Kanluwen wrote:

-1x Signals Officer
-1x Standard
-2x Veteran Bodyguards

This is literally just the current Command Squad, but with even more limited options. They die to a stiff breeze with no character protection.


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brainpsyk wrote:
I guess it comes down to what purpose you want the Command Squad to perform. Just ablative wounds for the CC? Another special weapon unit? Just bodies to extend auras & order range?

Right now, both these ideas are really just a tax for taking the Company Commander. So what benefit does that tax provide?

It provides additional wounds to Officers, it provides LoS protection for the Command Squad.

Presumably medics will be heavily buffed to match other 9th edition armies. So 6+++ aura, heal D3 wounds, stratagem to resurrect dead models. Which would be great for the Command Squad.

brainpsyk wrote:
I guess the pro of them being in the same unit as the Officer gives the whole unit LOS!. The con is that without some serious benefit they just become a tax on the Officer

You just make them optional. A 0-4 veteran models upgrade. So if you want to you can just take the CC or PC by themselves.

Just to give a better idea on what I’m suggesting. So the option is there to even say take a single veteran with a voxcaster. Just hide the unit behind obscuring and bark orders across the battlefield. Or you take a single veteran with a medi-pack and move up with the infantry. Or you could give them all plasma as usual and engage enemies from the safety of character protection.

Uh no. A 6+++ medipack with the ability to also heal D3 wounds is the standard in 9th edition. With good positioning that’s quite a lot of Guardsmen you can save, or keeping Bullgryns alive with heals.

That’s also very cheap. You’re already paying 35 for the Officer, so for an extra 17 points you get a good medic with character protection as well. Without having to give up extra VP.

Knowing GW they’ll likely limit the amount of special weapons to what comes in the box for command squads. So 1 flamer, 1 grenade launcher, 1 sniper rifle, 1 plasma, 1 melta, and 1 heavy flamer.

Special Weapon and Veteran Squads could theoretically keep their datasheets cause the have no dedicated boxes. Meaning they’re more viable for being able to take multiples of the same special weapon.

Considering the facts:
1. They won’t have Core, so will lose out on RR auras.
2. Officers will likely lose the ability to order themselves.
3. Because of the 2 above there’s going to be little protection to stop them from killing themselves.
4. It’s not hard to wipe out the chaff protecting them with LoS. I’ve lost 100+ Guardsmen T1 many times.
5. It’s going to be around 103 points to actually do that, you’re paying for the Officer as well. You’ll also be losing out on the option for the medi-pack and standard.
6. It’s going to be incredibly likely that the Company Commander is limited to 1 per detachment.
7. With the bodyguard nerf anything with the ability to ignore LoS will kill them with a stiff breeze.
8. As I said above, it’s also likely GW will limit the special weapons to what’s in the Command Squad box.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What about the idea of removing the Standards from the game? Yay, all unit's within 6" get +1 to attrition! For 15 points? Are you mad?

If it was all units that can draw line of sight to it, that would be something at least thematically reasonable, but it should really be something more valuable. Why not make it improve BS by 1 for all units within 12"? Or grant light cover, +1 to armor save?

Standard is just so much crap, cut cut cut.

My suggestion was 10 points + 7 for the Veteran. It's just points though, could easily drop it to 5 points. Or drop Veterans to 6 points, as I'd prefer Guardsmen going back to 5 points and remove the free wargear.

Presumably Take Aim! will likely be changed to +1 to Hit. As Company Commanders are likely to get a RR1 to Hit aura and Platoon Commanders a RR1 to Wound aura like other 9th edition characters.


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brainpsyk wrote:

Fluffy, but too expensive. The most you would see is the Vox Caster, as the special weapons and medi-pak are too expensive to risk your commander early on for just a 6+++ on a guardsman. They could see value for Lieutenants, but if LTs. are Elite slots, then you'll probably never see LTs. either.

If the 9th edition guard codex rumor is true that we're going mostly tanks, then we really won't have the need for anything besides 1 CC and 1 unit for a vox caster.

I don't think it's that expensive. Command Squad by itself now is 25 points. With individual Veterans at 6.5 points. My Veterans are based off costs now so I rounded up to 7 points, as Guardsmen are now 6 points. If Guardsmen are made 5 points again with free wargear removed then Veterans could go back to 6 points. That means 4 Veterans would be 24 points + 35 for the Officer. That's still pretty cheap for a HQ unit.

You could play around with the Standard and Medi-pack costs, but I think 10 points for the Medi-pack is a good deal. All you need to do is save 2 Guardsmen on the 6+++ to pay for the upgrade, save another 2 and you've also paid off more than the Veteran. Anything else is pure profit. That's also not even factoring the healing they can also do. That's more situational but it still needs to be considered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Give Sgts Comm Beads for 5pts. Done.

Why though? That would literally do the same thing as a vox.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because it makes it a SGT option, instead of sacrificing a trooper to do the same job. I'd rather my SGT, who is usually the most useless member in the squad, be forced to carry the stupid thing in any event. What good is a pistol shot or 2-3 swings of a chain sword? No, I'd rather see him serve some purpose if he can't actually shoot anything...

But you're not sacrificing anyone. They still have a lasgun.