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 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
What if Tank Commanders were allowed to operate Baneblades? Or most vehicles? I.e. 'any vehicle may take a Tank Commander upgrade, in which case that vehicle occupies a HQ slot instead of its usual slot'.

In a Baneblade for example, this would help solve both the Baneblade's poor efficiency and the Tank Commander's vulnerability. Ideally it'd be coupled with more auras and fewer self-orders. And above all else it's just fluffy for the tank commander to be operating out of the biggest, meanest tank on the battlefield.

Do you really need to guess? A Tank commander would need a group of tanks to command. What lists have two or more Baneblades in them?

Why lock it by vehicle type? Company Commanders are still allowed to order Veterans same as Heavy Weapons Teams same as Infantry Squads so long as they share a <Regiment>, right? Just do something similar for TCs - "Unit may issue orders to any <Regiment> <Vehicle>".

 waefre_1 wrote:
Why lock it by vehicle type? Company Commanders are still allowed to order Veterans same as Heavy Weapons Teams same as Infantry Squads so long as they share a <Regiment>, right? Just do something similar for TCs - "Unit may issue orders to any <Regiment> <Vehicle>".

Which is already in the balance dataslate. So I suspect it will be in the actual codex. Though it does exclude TITANIC vehicles from receiving Orders, for "REASONS".

Jarms48 wrote:
- Hydras: Their statline and weapons are fine, all that needs to change is their weapon ability. Get rid of the debuff against non-flyers. Keep the +1 against flyers and they'd be fine.

Ummm... what? 4 Autocannons is fine? For 115 points? With AP1? On a T6 chassis?

You're better off with 4 heavy bolters, for like 80 points. Anything that gets exposed in 9th is dead, and it's not like the Hydra is arty that stays hidden. The hydra has to pop out... and survive.

4 Predator ACs with 2d3 shots at D3, with +1 to hit vs. fliers while ignoring 'Hard to Hit' penalties, then 115 points is still overpriced, because the hydra is a niche unit whose primary target is flyers who can move 12-18" (or more) and hide behind cover. Anything with a 4+ save gets ~2-3 hits. At D3 that's respectable for the DE-era meta, but flyers are T7, and T8 now. Even that needs to be upped for the Eldar & Bug meta.

That's why I proposed the strat to let the a Hyrda platoon fire in the opponent's movement and/or charge phase. At least then the Hydra can disrupt enemy movement, and potentially pick off key unit(s) at inopportune times.

brainpsyk wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
- Hydras: Their statline and weapons are fine, all that needs to change is their weapon ability. Get rid of the debuff against non-flyers. Keep the +1 against flyers and they'd be fine.

Ummm... what? 4 Autocannons is fine? For 115 points? With AP1? On a T6 chassis?

You're better off with 4 heavy bolters, for like 80 points. Anything that gets exposed in 9th is dead, and it's not like the Hydra is arty that stays hidden. The hydra has to pop out... and survive.

brainpsyk wrote:
That's why I proposed the strat to let the a Hyrda platoon fire in the opponent's movement and/or charge phase. At least then the Hydra can disrupt enemy movement, and potentially pick off key unit(s) at inopportune times.

But.... wouldn't the Hydra need to be exposed, & somehow still alive, to manage that disruption?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My solution to IG has been to play 4th edition with the excellent 3.5 book, as well as the sub lists like Armored Company and the artillery company lists, Armored Battlegroup (the dilemmas for a tank lover!), Elysians, etc.

If only Stormtroopers had AP 3 guns back then

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My solution to IG has been to play 4th edition with the excellent 3.5 book, as well as the sub lists like Armored Company and the artillery company lists, Armored Battlegroup (the dilemmas for a tank lover!), Elysians, etc.

If only Stormtroopers had AP 3 guns back then

You'll be AP 5 ripping through those fierce eldar guardians and guardsmen with their 5+ saves! Unless they're in cover.

I'll not be doing anything since there was no way to run Stormtroopers on their own, now that I think about it, lol. But I do think making them AP 3 was a really good design choice, to make Stormies more than just Tac Marines -1.

Three fixes?

1) Get rid of orders and make officers have simple auras.

B) Basic Infantrymen should be basic. No shots and rerolls for days just lasguns and weight of numbers.

iii) Make Ogryns cool and deadly and nerf Bullgryns because Bullgryn is a stupid word.

Bonus round: bring back Rough Riders. Just because.

 JohnnyHell wrote:


B) Basic Infantrymen should be basic. No shots and rerolls for days just lasguns and weight of numbers.

And do you realistically expect people to buy enough guardsmen to even make that possible? We've looking at a situation where cadians are $50 a kit for 60 points of standard guardsmen. Kreig are $60 for that same point value as well. How many people are actually going to want to pay that kind of price, assemble them, paint them, and field them when you know for certain that $150 dollars isn't even enough to scratch the surface of an enemy unit.

I can get a lrbt for $60 dollars right now. Why the hell would i ever want to buy guardsmen and waste my money.

ccs wrote:

brainpsyk wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
- Hydras: Their statline and weapons are fine, all that needs to change is their weapon ability. Get rid of the debuff against non-flyers. Keep the +1 against flyers and they'd be fine.

Ummm... what? 4 Autocannons is fine? For 115 points? With AP1? On a T6 chassis?

You're better off with 4 heavy bolters, for like 80 points. Anything that gets exposed in 9th is dead, and it's not like the Hydra is arty that stays hidden. The hydra has to pop out... and survive.

brainpsyk wrote:
That's why I proposed the strat to let the a Hyrda platoon fire in the opponent's movement and/or charge phase. At least then the Hydra can disrupt enemy movement, and potentially pick off key unit(s) at inopportune times.

But.... wouldn't the Hydra need to be exposed, & somehow still alive, to manage that disruption?

Depends. With the strat you can be behind cover and shoot at a charging unit. If the Hydra is exposed, then it can shoot in the opponent's movement phase before being picked up. In either case it's not strong in terms of overall output, but strong in that it can force opponents to make longer charges if they don't want to get shot, or get shot and charge with weakened unit, or play cagey to avoid LoS which buys time and allows counter-play.

Think of it this way. If a DE player is planning on charging with Incubi and their raider, but using the raider first to soak overwatch, and there's a Hydra sitting there. How would that strat impact your plans? Alternatively, how do these units now have to change their playstyle:
- Swooping Hawks
- Voidweavers
- Flying Hive Tyrants that pop-in and then retreat on their own turn
- all jump pack units
- etc.

Just the threat of "going hot" with 8d3 shots is terrifying, even if it's normally 2-3 models. That threat, regardless of how effective it really is with AoC essentially ignoring the AP1, and big bugs being T8, will force opponents to play around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Three fixes?

1) Get rid of orders and make officers have simple auras.

B) Basic Infantrymen should be basic. No shots and rerolls for days just lasguns and weight of numbers.

iii) Make Ogryns cool and deadly and nerf Bullgryns because Bullgryn is a stupid word.

Bonus round: bring back Rough Riders. Just because.

Have to disagree here on #1 and #2. Auras are good for a lot of armies, because those characters (SM captains for example) lead from the front. Guard commanders, and the hallmark of a good commander is they don't lead with their fists. Having an aura would mean they're in the thick of things, rather than directing the battle. However, if we bring back platoons, then Lts should have a RR1s to wound aura, since they will be leading from the front. Tanks in squadrons would get the RR1sTW aura from their platoon leader. Arty squadrons get RR1sTW from the Master of Ordinance, Master of the Fleet gives RR1sTW to Hydras.

My idea, rather than an aura, was to have the Warlord pick an objective marker, and AM units get to RR1s to hit against any unit within 3" of that Objective Marker. Now the entire AM army is focused on a singular purpose. (Inspiration: Movie 'Patton' - "Hit them hard on the right flank. We've got them by the nose, kick them in the ").

Totally agree on the Rough Riders, or some kind of Cavalry unit. Horse riders, wolf riders, mechanical hounds, something! Sooooo cool and thematic.

Making chimeras open-topped, ObSec(5) and semi-durable means we can put infantry in them and have some durability to contest the point. Being open topped means infantry can pluck wounds off anything that gets close freeing up heavy-hitters to go splatter something else. It's just that right now, guard stuff is too expensive, lacks ObSec and/or the firepower to actually accomplish anything. But taking away their weapons and orders means we take away their firepower, and any reason to take them.

What about instead of FRFSRF, they instead made Infantry squads and any las unit, Scions, etc. (Must be all Lasrifles) have a dual shooting by unit profile?

All Lasguns are RF1 on "aimed" fire, and RF3 on "Full Auto". Balance it out by making full auto BS5. thematic, practical, and removes a stupid mechanic of having to order soldiers to make them shooty. Just have them Full Auto, or aimed shooting.

Agree with dropping re-rolls for las. Just make it a strat. or an Aura.

Expand the Aura units.

Commissars give Ld10, and +1 to BS. Infantry only.

Priests give +1 to Armor and +1 to attacks. Infantry only.

Company Commanders give Re-roll 1s, and +6" Range. Infantry only.

Platoon leaders give Re-roll 1s and double movement distance. Infantry Only.

Tank Commanders give +1 to wound other vehicles, and Extra 6" range. Vehicles only.

Tempestor Primes give +1 to BS and double shoot to Las weapons only. Infantry and Taurox Primes.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I'll not be doing anything since there was no way to run Stormtroopers on their own, now that I think about it, lol. But I do think making them AP 3 was a really good design choice, to make Stormies more than just Tac Marines -1.

Yes there was. Run a command squad in carapace Armor with plasma guns, a Senior Officer in carapace Armor with whatever, and take the Grenadiers doctrine to put Storm Troopers in the army as troops choices, then fill your Elites with storm Troopers as well. Then ally in some Inquisitorial Storm Troopers for the lulz.

Oh right, I forgot about that.

Just a bit sad that you might as well be playing Space Marines with that set up, still, point taken.

(I really like the AP on the hotshots, lol)

 Bobthehero wrote:
Oh right, I forgot about that.

Just a bit sad that you might as well be playing Space Marines with that set up, still, point taken.

(I really like the AP on the hotshots, lol)

I would actually use storm troopers if their weapons had a range of 24inchs...

I mean the range is basically the same as an airsoft gun...

There's a Stormtrooper regiment for that

Bring back easy build guardsmen at a low price point. Make it less economically challenging to build a 200+ infantry army.

brainpsyk wrote:

Ummm... what? 4 Autocannons is fine? For 115 points? With AP1? On a T6 chassis?

You're better off with 4 heavy bolters, for like 80 points. Anything that gets exposed in 9th is dead, and it's not like the Hydra is arty that stays hidden. The hydra has to pop out... and survive.

4 72 inch Autocannons, with +1 or +2 to Hit against Aircraft. That way no debuff against ground targets. You’re also forgetting it also has a Heavy Bolter as well. It’s also 110 points, not 115. The only thing making it bad now is the fact you’re hitting everything without Fly on a 5+, remove that and it’s actually not too bad. It’s 10 points per T6 wound, and has 5 heavy weapons.

Where are you getting 4 Heavy Bolters for 80 points from? A 3 Heavy Bolter HWS is 50 points, 2 of them is 100 for 6.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:


B) Basic Infantrymen should be basic. No shots and rerolls for days just lasguns and weight of numbers.

And do you realistically expect people to buy enough guardsmen to even make that possible? We've looking at a situation where cadians are $50 a kit for 60 points of standard guardsmen. Kreig are $60 for that same point value as well. How many people are actually going to want to pay that kind of price, assemble them, paint them, and field them when you know for certain that $150 dollars isn't even enough to scratch the surface of an enemy unit.

I can get a lrbt for $60 dollars right now. Why the hell would i ever want to buy guardsmen and waste my money.

We’ve seen people buying over 100 Gaunts. Also you’re assuming the Codex wouldn’t support different playstyles instead of only “spam so many wounds the enemy can’t kill them all”.

People already field hundreds of basic infantry, and that’s not even what I’m advocating here. Just that Guardsmen who can run faster than a Skimmer, or put out more shots than an army, is daft. Dial it back. Keep any buffs or rules simple instead of Guardsmen somehow being able to do everything all of the time.

The FW hydra was best hydra--and the appropriate route for all AA chassis to take.

Jarms48 wrote:

brainpsyk wrote:

Ummm... what? 4 Autocannons is fine? For 115 points? With AP1? On a T6 chassis?

You're better off with 4 heavy bolters, for like 80 points. Anything that gets exposed in 9th is dead, and it's not like the Hydra is arty that stays hidden. The hydra has to pop out... and survive.

4 72 inch Autocannons, with +1 or +2 to Hit against Aircraft. That way no debuff against ground targets. You’re also forgetting it also has a Heavy Bolter as well. It’s also 110 points, not 115. The only thing making it bad now is the fact you’re hitting everything without Fly on a 5+, remove that and it’s actually not too bad. It’s 10 points per T6 wound, and has 5 heavy weapons.

Where are you getting 4 Heavy Bolters for 80 points from? A 3 Heavy Bolter HWS is 50 points, 2 of them is 100 for 6.

A 4xAC hydra plus HB does about 2.5 damage vs. Intercessors (not including the +1 vs. flyers, but including HotE). A decent unit gets a 40% return on it's points value brings the Hydra up to 62.5. 80 points is almost 25% overcosted compared to the output and durability of a Tau hammerhead with an Ion Cannon and 2xACB, even accounting for the points differential.

It's so easy to underestimate how far Guard are behind other units. We need more than a few points tweaks, because with BS4, and being 50% of the output of other units means we need to double the number of shots, and then boost the durability.

For example, for every 50 points, a Hydra and Voidweaver have roughly the same output vs. Intercessors. (2.5W vs 2.9 for the VW). For and giggles, if you get the +1 to hit vs. the Intercessors, the units are even at 2.9W each. Yet the Hydra has 40% of the durability of the Voidweaver for it's points, and that's entirely ignoring the mobility advantage of the voidweaver, in a game that's won in the movement phase.

So let's take the Tau hammerhead instead. For every 50 points, a HH with Ion Cannon and 2ACB does ~6.3W to Intercessors compared to the 1.2 of the Hydra, and for it's points, the Hydra is ~20% less durable, and still FAR less manueverable, with FAR worse strats, and the Hammerhead isn't even that good!

When you start looking at all these factors, a 10% points reduction just won't cut it, we're really talking 40-50%, or more.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Three fixes?

1) Get rid of orders and make officers have simple auras.

B) Basic Infantrymen should be basic. No shots and rerolls for days just lasguns and weight of numbers.

iii) Make Ogryns cool and deadly and nerf Bullgryns because Bullgryn is a stupid word.

Bonus round: bring back Rough Riders. Just because.

No real comments on the substance but bonus points for 1, B, iii. You could write a GW rulebook with skills like that.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Three fixes?

1) Get rid of orders and make officers have simple auras.

B) Basic Infantrymen should be basic. No shots and rerolls for days just lasguns and weight of numbers.

iii) Make Ogryns cool and deadly and nerf Bullgryns because Bullgryn is a stupid word.

Bonus round: bring back Rough Riders. Just because.

No real comments on the substance but bonus points for 1, B, iii. You could write a GW rulebook with skills like that.

Isn't that sorta like saying you have the face for radio?



Anyway my three changes

1) Give them a army wide rule that give all infantry a 7+ cover save. If they don't move in their turn they get all covers saves increased by +2. This would represent the squads digging and/or improving the cover around them.

2)Give frag grenades and missiles, all flamers and all other weapons designed to flushing enemy out of cover a rule that if an unit takes wound from it then then the unit taking the would has to take a leadership test and if the fail then they fall back.

3) Give tanks an armour thickness stat that reduces the strength of weapons firing on it. So say a Chimera might have a stat 2 so an autocannon firing on it would be strength of 5. Weapons with the anti armour trait would ignore this. This might need a re gigging of weapons and maybe a reduction of the toughness trait for tanks.

I think it's funny that the majority of posts here agree with my earliest sentiments on Guard. The only way to save them is to radically alter 40k, or invent new super special rules for JUST them.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think it's funny that the majority of posts here agree with my earliest sentiments on Guard. The only way to save them is to radically alter 40k, or invent new super special rules for JUST them.

To be fair I'm general unhappy with how limited our choices are with interacting with the other army. It's pretty much just killy actions. Why can't have stuff like a glue spore mine that stop a unit from moving for a turn or a suppressing fire rule that debuffs a unit in some way or a weapon the can be used to turn an area of terrain into difficult terrain and other things like that? Right now that sort of thing is really just limited to pykers and even then you can't do much.

Like I said, the best chance for Guard to ever get a playable faction in this new style of 40k, is to make them a faction that can soup free of charge, like the Free cities faction in AoS. Give them the ability to soup, without losing any CP or abilities. Make them able to take units, but not entire formations. Want to add a squad of devestators, go ahead. Want to add two Whirlwinds and a Thunderhawk? Go for it. Want to add a full squad of Custodian Guard? Awesome. Here's the kicker: Those units Get NONE of their chapter goodies, strats, or abilities. Blood Angles don't get +1 to wound in melee, or Black Rage. That nice squad of Eradicators don't get shoot twice.
You get the statlines, and pay the cost, but you don't get all the cool toys.

There, I fixed soup.

brainpsyk wrote:
A 4xAC hydra plus HB does about 2.5 damage vs. Intercessors (not including the +1 vs. flyers, but including HotE). A decent unit gets a 40% return on it's points value brings the Hydra up to 62.5. 80 points is almost 25% overcosted compared to the output and durability of a Tau hammerhead with an Ion Cannon and 2xACB, even accounting for the points differential.

I didn't say it was good, just that in terms of everything else in the codex it'd be okay if it was able to shoot at ground targets without the debuff. Comparing it to anything outside the codex is of course going to show how bad Imperial Guard in general need a new codex.

Though, I could imagine GW making it D3 damage. Look at the size of those autocannons. Should have similar damage to the Predator one.

Many, many things in the IG codex need rebalancing, and I really don't want to have to reinvent the wheel for them. Keep it Simple Stupid.

Many of the things in the book are radically over costed for what they do, but we can't just slash points. They do need some amount of synergy and design flow.

In the Hydra example above, those are all ready NOT standard autocannons. If normal autocannons still stayed at Damage 1 for game consistency, would it be too much to make those bespoke autocannons D-2? That would make a huge improvement to the Hydra.

From the new Knight codex profiles. Looks like Multi-laser is moving to Heavy 4 and Battle Cannon definitely looks like it will be S8 AP-2 D3

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think it's funny that the majority of posts here agree with my earliest sentiments on Guard. The only way to save them is to radically alter 40k, or invent new super special rules for JUST them.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Like I said, the best chance for Guard to ever get a playable faction in this new style of 40k, is to make them a faction that can soup free of charge, like the Free cities faction in AoS. Give them the ability to soup, without losing any CP or abilities. Make them able to take units, but not entire formations. Want to add a squad of devestators, go ahead. Want to add two Whirlwinds and a Thunderhawk? Go for it. Want to add a full squad of Custodian Guard? Awesome. Here's the kicker: Those units Get NONE of their chapter goodies, strats, or abilities. Blood Angles don't get +1 to wound in melee, or Black Rage. That nice squad of Eradicators don't get shoot twice.
You get the statlines, and pay the cost, but you don't get all the cool toys.

There, I fixed soup.

Not at all, and I don't think soup is the right/only answer. I think Guard can easily be a playable faction again. Yes, the ultimate fix is a new codex, but we don't need to revamp the entire game. If you look at most of the ideas, they're about durability buffs and output, rightfully so for a 5-year-old codex.

Personally, I think Jarms48 points costs are about right (still slightly high, but now in the range of 5-10 points, not 50), IF you remove most of the 8th edition static-gunline limiters.

* Fall back and shoot with tanks so they're not touched and out of the game with *ZERO* damage against them, and/or let tanks ignore infantry when moving.
* Drop Grinding advance, let turrets fire twice by default (even with Grinding Advance, LRBTs have HALF the firepower of similarly costed units).
* Strat cost reductions. Our strats have early 8th edition static-gunline costs. "Fire on My Position" for 3CP?!?!? Make that 1 CP, and usable by units prevented from falling back, and have it affect both units!
* Point cost reductions as mentioned.

Do we really think that at 1CP "FOMP" is any more powerful than any of the new Nid strats, like doing psychic actions AND an additional 3MW? Gargoyles disappearing and reappearing next turn? Even Overlapping Fields of Fire for 0CP. So we can pick off ONE unit, is that OP in any way? Most other armies have some form of fall-back-and-shoot, why can't our overcosted tanks do the same?

FOMP is soooo powerful for 1CP. Prevented from falling back? Just pluck a model to be out of coherency, then pluck until you're out of engagement range, then pluck until you're back in coherency.

If tanks ignore infantry, then after the opponent charges & wipes our screens, then piles/consolidates into the tank, the tank just moves 12" away and blasts them.

Guard isn't hard to get back in the game, Guard just need to break out of the 8th edition paradigm.