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Made in de
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




T2 BS/WS6+, 1W, 4LD 6+Sv?

I think you just have to make the "no more than X troops choice" rule for them. You can't have more conscripts than Commissars or 1 to 1, would be my change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/27 17:27:39


 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
T2 BS/WS6+, 1W, 4LD 6+Sv?

I think you just have to make the "no more than X troops choice" rule for them. You can't have more conscripts than Commissars or 1 to 1, would be my change.


I know you mean 1 UNIT of conscripts per Commissar, but I just had a good laugh picturing a real 1:1 ratio in mind. Each Conscript having his/her very own Commissar looking over their shoulder with grim determination...

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
Frankly, I've said it hundreds of times...

The solution is and always will be making Infantry Squads better. Make Conscripts trash, like they should be. They should be the "Cultist"/"Grot" equivalent of the book.

Conscripts *are* trash. They're only "doing well" because most opponents aren't prepared to deal with 300 of them. They're just a skew list, not a good army. Anybody getting around AoC with volume over AP (quantity over quality) will wipe those 300 conscripts like nothing.

The thing we have to remember is not that conscripts are so good, it's that comparatively, everything else is so bad. The rest of the codex is massively overpriced and underpowered. It's the same as a TC or FP Manticore. Those units haven't been good in a long time, it's just that they were better than the alternatives.

I disagree that the solution is to make generic infantry squads better. At 60 points with free upgrades, they're about as good as they are going to get. Even AV3 was getting so bad that they needed AoC to boost it, so AV4 isn't going to cut it, and there is sooo much that ignores cover that a bonus to cover save isn't worth it either.

So the real solution is to free up infantry from trying to do too much (ref: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/804449.page#11361237 ) and bringing other units up to the point where they are worth taking. Then there will be less conscript spam. A nerf (of any kind) is the last thing Guard needs right now.

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

You can disagree all you want.
Infantry Squads need to be broken into archetypes and they need to be given specific roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
1. Break Infantry Squads into 3 distinctive entities. Veteran status is conferred when building your army, not by a unit choice.
1A. "Raider"/"Skirmisher" archetype, with a 5+ save and a bonus in terrain. No Heavy Weapon Teams, Lascarbines as standard. Special Weapons are able to be doubled up if no Heavy Weapon taken.
2A. "Line Infantry" archetype, the "Cadian look". 4+ save, no bonus in terrain. Heavy Weapon Teams as an option. Lasguns or Lascarbines as options. Single special weapon and single Heavy Weapon if no HWT.
3A. "Heavy Infantry" archetype, the "Grenadier" or "Kasrkin" look. 3+ save or a 4+ with an additional wound or something. Hellguns as standard. No HWT, doubling up Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons.

2. Heavy Weapon and Special Weapon list is revised, as are Heavy Weapon Teams themselves. HWTs are able to be deployed separately to the unit drawn from. HWTs get a bonus save while stationary in cover. Mortars are their own independent team, restricted to a Heavy Support option but gaining a "variable fire mode". Smoke rounds, incendiary/airburst rounds, HE rounds, etc. Fire mode is decided immediately after you fire the preceding round so thought is necessary for how you want to use them.
HWTs get a rule that effectively gives them their own version of autocannons, heavy bolters, lascannons, and twin heavy-stubbers by doubling their ROF at the expense of becoming fire OR move. Missile Launchers become a Heavy Weapon option alongside of a Heavy Stubber, Hellshot Rifle(lorewise they're cutdown lascannons intended to be used similar to an AT rifle), single operator capable AC/HB .
Plasma Guns become a separate choice in and of themselves.

3. Sergeants and Officers gain a pseudo-special weapon list. Plasma Guns, Lasguns, Hellguns, Boltguns, Shotguns. Things like this go into the "Officer/Veteran" armory pool.

I could go on, but y'all said 3.

Reiterating, again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/27 19:22:33


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:
You can disagree all you want.
Infantry Squads need to be broken into archetypes and they need to be given specific roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
1. Break Infantry Squads into 3 distinctive entities. Veteran status is conferred when building your army, not by a unit choice.
1A. "Raider"/"Skirmisher" archetype, with a 5+ save and a bonus in terrain. No Heavy Weapon Teams, Lascarbines as standard. Special Weapons are able to be doubled up if no Heavy Weapon taken.
2A. "Line Infantry" archetype, the "Cadian look". 4+ save, no bonus in terrain. Heavy Weapon Teams as an option. Lasguns or Lascarbines as options. Single special weapon and single Heavy Weapon if no HWT.
3A. "Heavy Infantry" archetype, the "Grenadier" or "Kasrkin" look. 3+ save or a 4+ with an additional wound or something. Hellguns as standard. No HWT, doubling up Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons.

2. Heavy Weapon and Special Weapon list is revised, as are Heavy Weapon Teams themselves. HWTs are able to be deployed separately to the unit drawn from. HWTs get a bonus save while stationary in cover. Mortars are their own independent team, restricted to a Heavy Support option but gaining a "variable fire mode". Smoke rounds, incendiary/airburst rounds, HE rounds, etc. Fire mode is decided immediately after you fire the preceding round so thought is necessary for how you want to use them.
HWTs get a rule that effectively gives them their own version of autocannons, heavy bolters, lascannons, and twin heavy-stubbers by doubling their ROF at the expense of becoming fire OR move. Missile Launchers become a Heavy Weapon option alongside of a Heavy Stubber, Hellshot Rifle(lorewise they're cutdown lascannons intended to be used similar to an AT rifle), single operator capable AC/HB .
Plasma Guns become a separate choice in and of themselves.

3. Sergeants and Officers gain a pseudo-special weapon list. Plasma Guns, Lasguns, Hellguns, Boltguns, Shotguns. Things like this go into the "Officer/Veteran" armory pool.

I could go on, but y'all said 3.

Reiterating, again.


I like these I think they're fluffy as heck.

1A & 1B could just be an infantry squad can take 2 special weapons. For each special weapon not taken, 2 members can form a HWT. The difference in saves/wounds doesn't add a whole lot of value, especially when we're talking a model is worth 5/6/7 points.

 Kanluwen wrote:

HWTs (snip...)by doubling their ROF at the expense of becoming fire OR move


Now THAT'S an idea!

I'm of the mind that we should bring platoons back, each platoon is 2-3 infantry/conscript/veteran squads. For each squad taken we can take a 'detached' HWT. Very similar to your idea, except with the platoon, the Lt. grants orders and RR1sTW. Cadian mortar pits shooting twice with full RRs to hit and RR1s to wound..

Both your idea and mine have the same issue - there's nothing stopping the HWTs from being targed and wiped. Even with a cover save, anything AP-1 will just clear a 6W HWS as easily as a 10W infantry squad. They need something to prevent them from being targeted in the first place. Without something to prevent them from being targeted, no amount of cover or -1 to hit will help them, they're still in a "Call them an Uber" situation, as they're going to get picked up.

I'm of 2 minds to fix this:

1 - Give HWTs (and Infantry units in general) Look Out Sir! If LRBTs/Chimeras were halfway decent, we'd take those to cover the units pushing up the board, then the units in the back would be protected by Basilisks/manticores/wyverns or even hydras and fire support LRBTs.

2 - Make smoke launchers create a whole Obscuring cloud. Something like "smoke launchers create a cloud of Obscuring mist that makes shooting at a unit within X" (~3-6") -1 to be hit. LOS cannot be traced thru the cloud, only to units within the cloud". This would wreak havoc on enemy shooting, while being a massive durability buff to the whole Guard army.

I'm kinda against trading shooting for popping smoke. Nowadays smoke and -1 to be hit is a Strat, so I'd keep it that way.


I guess in my mind, a unit comes down to 3 purposes:
1 - holding an objective
2 - clearing an objective
3 - specialty units for tasks like RND, Engage On All Fronts, etc.

The next problem is that most of our ideas are focusing on #2, but #1 and #3 are equally as valid, and require just the cheapest units they can be. We don't load those units up with goodies, as they're just there to accomplish 1 task and then die. For example, a Chimera pushing up to the mid board is going for #1. But the Iotan scions dropping within 5" is aiming for #3. Right now, we have to focus on #2, simply because Guard is so bad at it.

So when we talk about boosting units, let be sure to talk about #1 and #3 as well, as those allow Guard to play the game, and not just kill things.



   
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Regarding Heavy Weapon Teams, for a long time I’ve though they should have higher toughness, perhaps a better save too. To represent them hiding behind their heavy weapons. Not sure it would make much difference in the current state of the game though.
   
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I feel like any changes to the standard troops choice pretty much has to take into effect the fact that, in 9th at least, Troops are the only units that can hold Objectives.

My suggestion stands.

Make all Guard units dependent on symbiosis with other units. Troops need Commissars and Company Commanders, or they break and run, and can't get special orders.

Tanks/vehicles need Enginseers and some form of command vehicle, bet it a Command Chimera, or a Command Sentinel, not JUST a TC. They should be able to convert the current Strats into flat out orders.

Max Payload is now an order for all artillery units.

Steel PHalanyx should be an order?

Sanctimonious charge?
Suppresive Fire?
Pounding Barrage?
Defensive Gunners?

You name it. It should be orders. That's how you fix Guard. You remove them from the CP system.
   
Made in us
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I feel like any changes to the standard troops choice pretty much has to take into effect the fact that, in 9th at least, Troops are the only units that can hold Objectives.

I like it. But, since our troops have no durability, if we make Chimeras ObSec(5) while they contain an ObSec unit we've added durability to that infantry to hold the Objective.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

My suggestion stands.

Make all Guard units dependent on symbiosis with other units. Troops need Commissars and Company Commanders, or they break and run, and can't get special orders.

I kinda see where you're going here, but I think the problem is that this is too much of a limitation on basic troops so commanders & commissars become a tax, rather than a buff. If we shift the idea a little, let the commissars be a leadership buff (Ld9, plus some kind of bonus like ignoring attrition modifiers for units within 6"). Let Company Commanders have a special aura/ability/order, or let the Company Commander Order stack with other Orders.

Just throwing out an idea here, but what if the CC gave out double-ObSec to an infantry unit, or some form of "can't take away ObSec" from an infantry unit. Then medpacs give a 6++ (from Jarms48), and Commissars giving Ld buffs and ignoring attrition modifies, in an ObSec(5) Chimera and infantry become tough to shift.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Tanks/vehicles need Enginseers and some form of command vehicle, bet it a Command Chimera, or a Command Sentinel, not JUST a TC.

YES!! Let the LRBTs/Hellhounds/Sentinels/Arty be taken in squadrons, and the lead tank in the platoon gives the orders which affect all units in that platoon within 6". Then a TC can give a special aura/ability/order that stacks with the platoon order.


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

They should be able to convert the current Strats into flat out orders.

Max Payload is now an order for all artillery units.

Steel PHalanyx should be an order?

Sanctimonious charge?
Suppresive Fire?
Pounding Barrage?
Defensive Gunners?

You name it. It should be orders. That's how you fix Guard. You remove them from the CP system.

Again, I like where you're going (we're too reliant on the 8th edition strats), but I would tweak it a bit.

- Max Payload/Pounding Barrage - unnecessary if we fix weapon profiles. Double shooting just leads to either underpowered or overpowered units, with nothing in-between. Just give units a solid profile instead of random+random+random
- Defensive Gunners - unnecessary if tanks get cover, which then gives Defensible and overwatch on 5s.

I'm torn on Steel Phalanyx. It's too weak in it's current incarnation, but might be too powerful if baked in. But I would be in favor of dropping the attacks of a tank down to 0 and just giving tanks Steel Phalanx or 'Breaking Through' by default. It's stupid IMHO that a tank is just going to sit there and try to slap somebody with it's battle cannon rather than just run them over and/or just drive away and shoot them. Tanks are not infantry, and tanks are not Monstrous Creatures looking for lunch.

100% agree on Suppressive Fire & Sanctimonious Charge. I'd even build Suppressive Fire into the Basilisk profile by default. I suggested a long time ago that the Specialist Detachments from Vigilus should be applied to units instead of detachments. So I think you're idea of baking them into the profile is spot-on.
   
Made in de
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




brainpsyk wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I feel like any changes to the standard troops choice pretty much has to take into effect the fact that, in 9th at least, Troops are the only units that can hold Objectives.

I like it. But, since our troops have no durability, if we make Chimeras ObSec(5) while they contain an ObSec unit we've added durability to that infantry to hold the Objective.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

My suggestion stands.

Make all Guard units dependent on symbiosis with other units. Troops need Commissars and Company Commanders, or they break and run, and can't get special orders.

I kinda see where you're going here, but I think the problem is that this is too much of a limitation on basic troops so commanders & commissars become a tax, rather than a buff. If we shift the idea a little, let the commissars be a leadership buff (Ld9, plus some kind of bonus like ignoring attrition modifiers for units within 6"). Let Company Commanders have a special aura/ability/order, or let the Company Commander Order stack with other Orders.

Just throwing out an idea here, but what if the CC gave out double-ObSec to an infantry unit, or some form of "can't take away ObSec" from an infantry unit. Then medpacs give a 6++ (from Jarms48), and Commissars giving Ld buffs and ignoring attrition modifies, in an ObSec(5) Chimera and infantry become tough to shift.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Tanks/vehicles need Enginseers and some form of command vehicle, bet it a Command Chimera, or a Command Sentinel, not JUST a TC.

YES!! Let the LRBTs/Hellhounds/Sentinels/Arty be taken in squadrons, and the lead tank in the platoon gives the orders which affect all units in that platoon within 6". Then a TC can give a special aura/ability/order that stacks with the platoon order.


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

They should be able to convert the current Strats into flat out orders.

Max Payload is now an order for all artillery units.

Steel PHalanyx should be an order?

Sanctimonious charge?
Suppresive Fire?
Pounding Barrage?
Defensive Gunners?

You name it. It should be orders. That's how you fix Guard. You remove them from the CP system.

Again, I like where you're going (we're too reliant on the 8th edition strats), but I would tweak it a bit.

- Max Payload/Pounding Barrage - unnecessary if we fix weapon profiles. Double shooting just leads to either underpowered or overpowered units, with nothing in-between. Just give units a solid profile instead of random+random+random
- Defensive Gunners - unnecessary if tanks get cover, which then gives Defensible and overwatch on 5s.

I'm torn on Steel Phalanyx. It's too weak in it's current incarnation, but might be too powerful if baked in. But I would be in favor of dropping the attacks of a tank down to 0 and just giving tanks Steel Phalanx or 'Breaking Through' by default. It's stupid IMHO that a tank is just going to sit there and try to slap somebody with it's battle cannon rather than just run them over and/or just drive away and shoot them. Tanks are not infantry, and tanks are not Monstrous Creatures looking for lunch.

100% agree on Suppressive Fire & Sanctimonious Charge. I'd even build Suppressive Fire into the Basilisk profile by default. I suggested a long time ago that the Specialist Detachments from Vigilus should be applied to units instead of detachments. So I think you're idea of baking them into the profile is spot-on.


I agree with 100% of what you're suggesting. The weapon profiles would be a better target. I think Basalisks, and I'm sorry to say this, are a relic of a bygone era, if there ever was one. Who needs 240"? Like, that's 3 times the length of any table currently used for actual play. Give it a realistic window, and just say yeah, it's got 72" range, or anything currently on the map is legally within range, the end. We don't need magical numbers like 300
" that will never actually be relevant.

Also, make Guard artillery something that can actually be "Bracketed" so fluff wise, you make everything within 36" of the weapon difficult terrain, or do mortals against chargers within a certain distance. You shouldn't be able to walk up a punch a basalisk driver in the face. It should be extremely difficult to get up close to an IDF weapon.

I personally like the idea of making the Tremor cannon the rule for all IDF. All terrain within range is half movement, or difficult terrain.
   
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Denison, Iowa

Opinions Needed:

I mentioned this pages ago, and I'd really like to know what you guys think. Commissars suck right now, especially as they take up slots. How would you guys feel about making them unit upgrades like in 3rd-7th edition?

For example, Infantry squad: 9 Imperial Guard Infantry, 1 Sergent, 0-1 Commissar.

You could keep the lesser Commissars kinda sucky, but there would be more of them, they could hide in squads, and in combat the Sergent and the Commissar working together would at least be somewhat of a threat to other race's squad leaders.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 cuda1179 wrote:
Opinions Needed:

I mentioned this pages ago, and I'd really like to know what you guys think. Commissars suck right now, especially as they take up slots. How would you guys feel about making them unit upgrades like in 3rd-7th edition?

For example, Infantry squad: 9 Imperial Guard Infantry, 1 Sergent, 0-1 Commissar.


Ideally I would go back to 3rd edition. Where Command Squads were HQ choices that included the Officer, 4 Veterans, and could take a regular Commissar as an additional model. I also wouldn't mind other regimental advisors becoming unit upgrades to the Command Squad again as well. Such as Astropaths, Officers of the Fleet, and the Ogryn Bodyguard. What does this do:

- It forces players to be more conservative with their Command Squads instead of using them as better Special Weapon Squads. Because now you're also risking your Officer's lives, as well as any additional models you purchased.
- It would give Command Squads character protection, as they character ability applies to an entire unit not just a single model.
- It would cutdown on our Elite slot bloat. That's minimum 2 Elite choices foldered into a single HQ choice, potentially 5 if you extend it to the others suggested.

Sadly though, I don't think GW will do that. What I think GW will do with Commissars is:
- Make Commissars HQ choices, rather than Elites.
- Remove Lord Commissars as a datasheet, instead that will become a character upgrade like Chapter Command. Likely called something like Regimental Command.
- Buff the Commissars datasheet to be similar to the current Lord Commissar one.
- No change to their morale abilities, look at Orks, another horde army who lost all their morale abilities. Commissars morale buffs will remain as they are, but their combat ability will probably get better. To a point where they're the best human fighters in our codex. Imagine the Canoness statline except with a 4+ save and 5++ invul.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
5 point floor is sort of a silly concept, I’m all for removing it.


I don’t mind the 5 point floor. The issue is the difference between single digit point models, IE: 5 point model against a 6 or 7 point model is a massive jump in power level. What GW needs to do to actually make the 5 point floor viable is to start pushing unit point costs up, anything that’s underperforming gets either no point increase or a smaller one.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/28 06:22:35


 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:
size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size]
 Kanluwen wrote:
1. Break Infantry Squads into 3 distinctive entities. Veteran status is conferred when building your army, not by a unit choice.
1A. "Raider"/"Skirmisher" archetype, with a 5+ save and a bonus in terrain. No Heavy Weapon Teams, Lascarbines as standard. Special Weapons are able to be doubled up if no Heavy Weapon taken.
2A. "Line Infantry" archetype, the "Cadian look". 4+ save, no bonus in terrain. Heavy Weapon Teams as an option. Lasguns or Lascarbines as options. Single special weapon and single Heavy Weapon if no HWT.
3A. "Heavy Infantry" archetype, the "Grenadier" or "Kasrkin" look. 3+ save or a 4+ with an additional wound or something. Hellguns as standard. No HWT, doubling up Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons.

So, basically, have the Imperial Guard take up the old Tactical/Assault/Devastator/Scout layout the SM used to have and the SoB is currently having? I'm all in for that!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/28 09:06:41


My armies:
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Jarms48 wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
Opinions Needed:

I mentioned this pages ago, and I'd really like to know what you guys think. Commissars suck right now, especially as they take up slots. How would you guys feel about making them unit upgrades like in 3rd-7th edition?

For example, Infantry squad: 9 Imperial Guard Infantry, 1 Sergent, 0-1 Commissar.


Ideally I would go back to 3rd edition. Where Command Squads were HQ choices that included the Officer, 4 Veterans, and could take a regular Commissar as an additional model. I also wouldn't mind other regimental advisors becoming unit upgrades to the Command Squad again as well. Such as Astropaths, Officers of the Fleet, and the Ogryn Bodyguard. What does this do:

- It forces players to be more conservative with their Command Squads instead of using them as better Special Weapon Squads. Because now you're also risking your Officer's lives, as well as any additional models you purchased.
- It would give Command Squads character protection, as they character ability applies to an entire unit not just a single model.
- It would cutdown on our Elite slot bloat. That's minimum 2 Elite choices foldered into a single HQ choice, potentially 5 if you extend it to the others suggested.

Sadly though, I don't think GW will do that. What I think GW will do with Commissars is:
- Make Commissars HQ choices, rather than Elites.
- Remove Lord Commissars as a datasheet, instead that will become a character upgrade like Chapter Command. Likely called something like Regimental Command.
- Buff the Commissars datasheet to be similar to the current Lord Commissar one.
- No change to their morale abilities, look at Orks, another horde army who lost all their morale abilities. Commissars morale buffs will remain as they are, but their combat ability will probably get better. To a point where they're the best human fighters in our codex. Imagine the Canoness statline except with a 4+ save and 5++ invul.

Unfortunately, the game has changed since 3rd edition. Having a squad means the character is targetable, and with the lethality of 9th, that squad will just get picked up. So people will either 1 - just hide them all game so the extra models become a tax or b - just not take them.

I'm fully in favor of giving the command squad bonuses, like Bodyguard, not take up a Force Org slot, and even a limitation where they have to be within 3" of an officer. But making the character part of the squad just means a dead character.

One thing I would like to change is not give most of our single-models the 'CHARACTER' keyword, but just give them the 'OFFICER' keyword. An OFFICER is, for all intents and purposes a CHARACTER, but an OFFICER doesn't count toward Assassinate. The Company Commanders, Primaris Psykers, Tempestor Primes, and even a TC should count toward Assassinate, and even a Lord Commissar. Probably even the Priests. But Lieutenants, main-line Commissars, Officers of the Fleet and Masters or Ordinance I think should just remain Officers.
   
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brainpsyk wrote:


I'm fully in favor of giving the command squad bonuses, like Bodyguard, not take up a Force Org slot, and even a limitation where they have to be within 3" of an officer. But making the character part of the squad just means a dead character.

One thing I would like to change is not give most of our single-models the 'CHARACTER' keyword, but just give them the 'OFFICER' keyword. An OFFICER is, for all intents and purposes a CHARACTER, but an OFFICER doesn't count toward Assassinate. The Company Commanders, Primaris Psykers, Tempestor Primes, and even a TC should count toward Assassinate, and even a Lord Commissar. Probably even the Priests. But Lieutenants, main-line Commissars, Officers of the Fleet and Masters or Ordinance I think should just remain Officers.


Actually I'm fairly certain that if the UNIT has the CHARACTER rule, Look Out, Sir applies. So in this hypothetical situation, the unit should still be protected.
   
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In My Lab

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
brainpsyk wrote:


I'm fully in favor of giving the command squad bonuses, like Bodyguard, not take up a Force Org slot, and even a limitation where they have to be within 3" of an officer. But making the character part of the squad just means a dead character.

One thing I would like to change is not give most of our single-models the 'CHARACTER' keyword, but just give them the 'OFFICER' keyword. An OFFICER is, for all intents and purposes a CHARACTER, but an OFFICER doesn't count toward Assassinate. The Company Commanders, Primaris Psykers, Tempestor Primes, and even a TC should count toward Assassinate, and even a Lord Commissar. Probably even the Priests. But Lieutenants, main-line Commissars, Officers of the Fleet and Masters or Ordinance I think should just remain Officers.


Actually I'm fairly certain that if the UNIT has the CHARACTER rule, Look Out, Sir applies. So in this hypothetical situation, the unit should still be protected.
I think every model needs the Character Keyword to benefit from it.

Not 100% sure, though.

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Rhine and Raus are the only two model unit that has character protection I think, I can't for the life of me think of a second. Maybe Eisenhorne and Cherubael? What other units have multiple named characters in them?
   
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Main rulebook, page 219. Look Out, Sir:

"Models cannot target a unit that contains any CHARACTER models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any other friendly VEHICLE or MONSTER unit, or while it is within 3" of any other friendly units that have 3 or more models, unless that CHARACTER unit is both visible to the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model..."

So an old fashioned Command Squad should benefit from Look Out, Sir, as long as at least one of the models in it has the CHARACTER keyword and that model has 9 or fewer wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/28 19:16:41


 
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Rhine and Raus are the only two model unit that has character protection I think, I can't for the life of me think of a second. Maybe Eisenhorne and Cherubael? What other units have multiple named characters in them?


Gaunts Ghosts
Ephrael Stern and Kyganil (SoB)
Celestine and Geminae Superia
Aestred Thurga and Agathae Dolan

Might even be more of them

~7000 build and painted 
   
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In My Lab

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Main rulebook, page 219. Look Out, Sir:

"Models cannot target a unit that contains any CHARACTER models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any other friendly VEHICLE or MONSTER unit, or while it is within 3" of any other friendly units that have 3 or more models, unless that CHARACTER unit is both visible to the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model..."

So an old fashioned Command Squad should benefit from Look Out, Sir, as long as at least one of the models in it has the CHARACTER keyword and that model has 9 or fewer wounds.
Huh. Would you look at that.

Thanks for the knowledge!

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Regular Dakkanaut




 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Main rulebook, page 219. Look Out, Sir:

"Models cannot target a unit that contains any CHARACTER models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any other friendly VEHICLE or MONSTER unit, or while it is within 3" of any other friendly units that have 3 or more models, unless that CHARACTER unit is both visible to the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model..."

So an old fashioned Command Squad should benefit from Look Out, Sir, as long as at least one of the models in it has the CHARACTER keyword and that model has 9 or fewer wounds.


Yep, I read that wrong. Good catch!
   
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Denison, Iowa

brainpsyk wrote:
 CommunistNapkin wrote:
Main rulebook, page 219. Look Out, Sir:

"Models cannot target a unit that contains any CHARACTER models with a Wounds characteristic of 9 or less with a ranged weapon while that unit is within 3" of any other friendly VEHICLE or MONSTER unit, or while it is within 3" of any other friendly units that have 3 or more models, unless that CHARACTER unit is both visible to the firing model and it is the closest enemy unit to the firing model..."

So an old fashioned Command Squad should benefit from Look Out, Sir, as long as at least one of the models in it has the CHARACTER keyword and that model has 9 or fewer wounds.


Yep, I read that wrong. Good catch!


So, with that in mind, with the addition of bringing an extra couple wounds, and a couple power weapon attacks, adding a Commissar would make an Infantry Squad tougher to shoot. Take them back to "execute a guy and they won't run away".

This would make Infantry squads still fragile in close combat, but they will stick around longer until they get assaulted. Other gunline armies might be forced to actually maneuver and get closer.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




What if Commissars allowed nearby units to take morale tests on a d3 instead of a d6, just like our current strat.

Combine that with the Ld9 aura, then even after losing 6 models, an infantry squad still only fails morale on a 5-6.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 16:49:05


 
   
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

what if commissars got removed from the book?

I like that idea better.
   
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brainpsyk wrote:
What if Commissars allowed nearby units to take morale tests on a d3 instead of a d6, just like our current strat.

Combine that with the Ld9 aura, then even after losing 6 models, an infantry squad still only fails morale on a 5-6.


That would certainly make them better than they are now, although I feel it would remove some of their flavor. Commissars have been executing men to pass morale for ages, so I think that you've gotta tie the executor in there somewhere. There has to be a middle point between "execute a guy and ignore the morale mechanic completely" and "commissars are an actual detriment to your army because more often than not, you're executing a model and still failing morale anyway." Just spitballing, but what if the rule was more like...

"Prior to taking a Morale test on a unit, a Commissar within 6" may execute one or more models from that unit. For every model removed this way, subtract 3 from the total result of the next Morale test."

A couple examples:

An Infantry Squad lost 5 men this turn. With a Leadership 7 sergeant, the squad would normally have to roll a 1 or 2 to pass (ignoring any leadership buffs that Commissars might provide for this example). So in this situation, a player could have his nearby commissar execute a single model, making it so a 1-5 passes, but a 6 would still fail. Alternatively, that player could just go ahead and execute two models instead, and guarantee the unit will pass, however at a higher cost.

I suppose you could also have the execution apply after taking and failing a Morale test, but that kind of completely removes the gamble from it. "Oh, I rolled a 4 but I needed a 2 or less? Guess I just execute a single model." "Oh, I rolled a 6 but needed a 2 or less? Guess I can just execute 2 models."
   
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Dakka Veteran




Execute with a RR on a D3. Then we can get rid of the Fight to the Death stratagem.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
brainpsyk wrote:

Unfortunately, the game has changed since 3rd edition. Having a squad means the character is targetable, and with the lethality of 9th, that squad will just get picked up. So people will either 1 - just hide them all game so the extra models become a tax or b - just not take them.


Having a single character in a unit gives the entire unit LoS. Which is why bringing back old school command squads would work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/30 00:15:26


 
   
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South Africa

The problem with putting the officer in the command squad is that it will give the whole squad the characther keyword as well.

As was pointed out this will give the squad 'look out sir' but will also give the easiest 15 victory points ever. 7 t3 +5 wounds for 15 victory points? Who would say no to that?
   
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Dakka Veteran




No, you have split keywords. All you need is something like:

- KEYWORDS (COMPANY COMMANDER): CHARACTER, INFANTRY, OFFICER, COMPANY COMMANDER
- KEYWORDS (VETERANS): INFANTRY, VETERANS, COMMAND SQUAD

Done, now the CC provides the entire squad LoS and only counts as 3 VP for assassinate. Datasheets with split keywords like this already exist such as Commander Shadowsun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/30 07:05:57


 
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Honestly, how about we just remove morale from the game? It's a dumb system that hasn't worked properly since 8th, and no one mains horde armies anymore. It's a relic play style.

Remove Commissars
Remove Conscripts
Make infantry squads 5-10 now.
Remove Morale from vehicles and characters. It's dumb. Remove from game.
   
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honestly, how about we just remove morale from the game? It's a dumb system that hasn't worked properly since 8th, and no one mains horde armies anymore. It's a relic play style.

Remove Commissars
Remove Conscripts
Make infantry squads 5-10 now.
Remove Morale from vehicles and characters. It's dumb. Remove from game.


Or, make it actually work. Forcing units that failed morale to lose 1 BS/WS that turn or move away from the enemy would already be more interesting than just losing more models

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/30 12:47:19


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Jarms48 wrote:
No, you have split keywords. All you need is something like:

- KEYWORDS (COMPANY COMMANDER): CHARACTER, INFANTRY, OFFICER, COMPANY COMMANDER
- KEYWORDS (VETERANS): INFANTRY, VETERANS, COMMAND SQUAD

Done, now the CC provides the entire squad LoS and only counts as 3 VP for assassinate. Datasheets with split keywords like this already exist such as Commander Shadowsun.

or even simpler and more in line with what we have now, a "Command Squad" is a rule that lets you take, without using up a FOC slot, for each officer taken in your army:

-1x Signals Officer
-1x Standard
-2x Veteran Bodyguards

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/30 13:35:51


 
   
 
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