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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is what the people wanted...

"Let Guard auto-wound everything on a 6" is not what the "people wanted", Kan.

96 Conscripts are almost 500 points... that got weithin 12 inch unmolested, received 4 orders by commander that cost additions points. O can live with that removing a Knight...

Like I said I basically think the 5 heavy weapons are well balanced choices. I would only add the heavy flamer but with the same loader requirement as the other weapons.

Special weapons however I think need work, the plasma gun is just too much better than any of the others.

I would go with:
Plasma Gun - S8, AP-3, 24" range, Assault 1, 2 damage, gets hot
Melta Gun - S10, AP -4, 8" range, Assault 1, d6 damage
Flamer - S4, AP -, 12" range, Assault d6, 1 damage, auto hit
Grenade Launcher (Frag) - S3, AP -, 24" range, Blast d6, 1 damage, indirect fire
Grenade Launcher (Krak) - 6, AP -1, 24" range, Assault 1, d3 damage, indirect fire
Sniper Rifle - S5, AP -2, 36" range, Heavy 1, 2 damage, Shooter chooses model hit
Heavy Stubber - S4, AP -, 36" range, Heavy 3, 1 damage

Obviously since IG are the closest to a real world army we can keep going adding LAW rockets and SAWs and Stingers and whatever else but I think 6 guns each with a unique role does the job. Plus this would give heavy weapon something that synergizes with it.

Right now the 24" plasma gun is the only thing that really synergizes with anything.

I changed the melta gun to having one profile at 8" to cut bookkeeping and make it a genuinely scary anti tank gun. The sniper rifle also got a buff.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Assuming you get the FRFSRF order off on them, per 30 (in Rapid Fire range):
120/3=40, 20 auto wound so 20/6=3
Roughly 23, so 23/3 is roughly 7.6666667 Unsaved wounds. Per Conscript: just over .25 wounds per.

So that's just under 48 per Armiger, 96 per Crusader, and 112 per Castellan.

So if you have 4 Squads of Conscripts within Rapid Fire range, and can get off the FRFSRF order, you can delete any Knight in one round of shooting.

That is cursed.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Like I said I basically think the 5 heavy weapons are well balanced choices. I would only add the heavy flamer but with the same loader requirement as the other weapons.

No thanks. It's already dumb that Mortars and Missile Launchers are available to every infantry/veteran squad. Or that these squads are carrying the equivalent of a dug-in and emplaced weapons team with them.

Special weapons however I think need work, the plasma gun is just too much better than any of the others.

Because the others are garbage on a T3 BS4+ 5+ save platform.

There's literally no getting around that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

No thanks. It's already dumb that Mortars and Missile Launchers are available to every infantry/veteran squad. Or that these squads are carrying the equivalent of a dug-in and emplaced weapons team with them.

You literally chose the worst examples. Missile Launchers are shoulder fired. Mortars don’t weight that much. You’re thinking of the tripod weapons HB, autocannon, and lascannon.

Mortars are specialized weapons that shouldn't be on Infantry Squads.

Missile Launchers are stupid as heavy weapons. They should be specials, or upgraded to a higher profile across the board if not meant to be disposable AT4 styled launchers.

Additionally, I literally called out the tripod bits immediately after.

I've said all this before man. You know this.

So literally in my unit, every squad has at MINIMUM a HW guy with either a M203 or a AT4, and at least 1 guy with a heavy machine gun, 240B, and likely 2 guys with DMRs or SAWs. Then we have 60mms that we carry with us in our kit usually dispersed among the squad. Thats a standard Infantry squad of 12 guys. 4 squads to a platoon, 5 if you count the PLs team. 4/5 platoons to a company. Thats a gak ton of HWs. It's also kinda sorta how Guard operate. They have an explosive trooper, and two guys dedicated to a HW, in a single squad.

It's completely practical for a infantry squad to control self contained Indirect fire weapons, or heavy machine guns, and sniper weapons (lite)

Also, sometimes that AT4 is a TOW. And sometimes that soldier retires with back problems.

HMGs aren't considered a two person gig though, right?
Nor are the SAWs?

DMRs, IIRC, usually at least have someone spotting with them yeah?

And while we're at it, your squad gets broken down into how many person fireteams?

And IIRC, that kind of loadout isn't always used is it?

My three fixes for Guard (one of which will affect other armies as well):

1) Imperial Guard units firing BLAST weapons double the number of models in the target unit for the purposes of determining how many shots they get. ie, 3 models = min 3 shots, 6 models = max shots.

2) Vehicles roll armor saves on a D12 instead of a D6. 4+ save becomes 7+ save, on a D12. 2+ save becomes 3+ save on a D12, and AP is unchanged. A vehicle with a 5+ save (on D12) hit by an AP-4 weapon now saves on a 9, 10, 11, or 12. Baneblades now have 3+ saves on D12, and AP-4 weapons reduce that to 7+ on D12, effectively halving the effectiveness of AP vs vehicles. Leman Russes get 4+ saves instead, so they're a little less tough. Adds granularity and doesn't require rolling each save independently on 2D6. Include a free branded D12 in every model package that includes a vehicle!

3) Bring back platoons and allow them to "combat squad" into one big unit. As long as the Platoon Leader is alive, halve the number of casualties when determining morale results. Adding a Commissar allows a re-roll or +1 to the roll (+2 if the PL is also alive) or summat.

Ditch the stupid 6's auto-wound, though. That's redonkulus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
HMGs aren't considered a two person gig though, right?
Nor are the SAWs?

DMRs, IIRC, usually at least have someone spotting with them yeah?

And while we're at it, your squad gets broken down into how many person fireteams?

And IIRC, that kind of loadout isn't always used is it?

Heavy Machine guns (.50 cals) are definitely 2-man or 3-man operations (especially since they're usually vehicle mounted anymore). A 240B is a light machinegun, and is still usually assigned an assistant gunner.

 Kanluwen wrote:

ccs wrote:
Fix #1: remove the new auto-wound on hit rolls of 6.

Nope. This is what the people wanted, clamoring for horde Guard to be the only Guard.

Anyone who actually wants & supports this auto-wounding on 6s to hit just because Guard being Guard non-sense are people who's opinions need not be taken seriously.
Hopefully there aren't very many of them....

Fortunately, as I don't play I'm tournies, I don't have to entertain such people IRL. I'll just decline to play them.

It's pretty simple tbh.


1. Guard units now auto hit and wound on 6's
2. Guard units now ignore the new artillery rule
3. Guard units now auto pass armor saves on 6's

 Kanluwen wrote:
Mortars are specialized weapons that shouldn't be on Infantry Squads.

Missile Launchers are stupid as heavy weapons. They should be specials, or upgraded to a higher profile across the board if not meant to be disposable AT4 styled launchers.

Additionally, I literally called out the tripod bits immediately after.

I've said all this before man. You know this.

True, guardmens should only have Lasguns (and Laspistols for the Sergeant). The humble flashlight has a 1/6 chance of instantly killing anything so why invest in heavier weapons. It doesn't make sense fluffwise why the Departmento Munitorum would waste all those resources more valuable than human life when a lasgun or pistol is so much better.

Overall, this dataslate was meh, as overall Guard is flat-to-down after the changes.

- Auto-wounding on 6s was a good change for the army, but far from the best. Between the free upgrades and wounding on 6s, it increases overall output of Infantry squads. Agreed that wounding Knights and tanks seems quite wacky, but it does relieve the pressure on the tanks to kill EVERYTHING. Now infantry stand a chance of plucking those couple wounds off units with something besides the TCs, and are actually worth shooting.

- Manticores, LRBTs and TCs actually got worse, because of the Armor of Contempt affects all the heavy hitters, and every shot that used to hit now takes an AP penalty. While 1/4 shots auto wounds, it used to wound on a 2 or 3 anyway. This wouldn't be so bad, but the majority of the armies in the game are powered armor. In fact, the Basilisk got hit the hardest, as it was already a steaming pile of poop, this change just gave it a warm diarrhea gravy.

- Guard is more effective against non-Powered Armor armies, but to be honest, this isn't going to help Guard against Custodes, Tau, Eldar or Nids, or even DE as those armies are playing an entirely different game than Guard.

Jeez, it's like the bloody War Convocation all over again when it comes to the "free upgrades".

When there's basically one must-take option that is extremely expensive, that's what is going to be taken. It was going to be taken whether it was free or paid for.

For those of us taking notes, what is this best choice Infantry Squad that everyone will be taking

 alextroy wrote:
For those of us taking notes, what is this best choice Infantry Squad that everyone will be taking

The best choices are:
- Special: Plasma/Melta
- Heavy: Heavy bolter/Lascannon
- Sergeant: Plasma pistol and power sword
- Take the vox

 Kanluwen wrote:
Jeez, it's like the bloody War Convocation all over again when it comes to the "free upgrades".

When there's basically one must-take option that is extremely expensive, that's what is going to be taken. It was going to be taken whether it was free or paid for.

I really hate this change. It basically made every <Regiment> infantry unit that's not an Infantry Squad useless. Why should I bother taking a Veteran Squad now? After factoring in all the costs for their upgrades that's basically 2 Infantry Squads with all the free wargear options. Command Squads might still be situationally viable, but I'd have like to see their Regimental Standard and Medi-kit become free too.


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brainpsyk wrote:
Overall, this dataslate was meh, as overall Guard is flat-to-down after the changes.

- Auto-wounding on 6s was a good change for the army, but far from the best. Between the free upgrades and wounding on 6s, it increases overall output of Infantry squads. Agreed that wounding Knights and tanks seems quite wacky, but it does relieve the pressure on the tanks to kill EVERYTHING. Now infantry stand a chance of plucking those couple wounds off units with something besides the TCs, and are actually worth shooting.

- Manticores, LRBTs and TCs actually got worse, because of the Armor of Contempt affects all the heavy hitters, and every shot that used to hit now takes an AP penalty. While 1/4 shots auto wounds, it used to wound on a 2 or 3 anyway. This wouldn't be so bad, but the majority of the armies in the game are powered armor. In fact, the Basilisk got hit the hardest, as it was already a steaming pile of poop, this change just gave it a warm diarrhea gravy.

- Guard is more effective against non-Powered Armor armies, but to be honest, this isn't going to help Guard against Custodes, Tau, Eldar or Nids, or even DE as those armies are playing an entirely different game than Guard.

Completely agreed. This basically just reinforces the fact that Demolishers are the only good Russ type.

Honestly, I'm just going to keep play my pure infantry Scion lists. They're loving Hammer of the Emperor, and Lambdan Lions don't really care about the marine armour buff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dirk Reinecke wrote:

Wait what, they could always take 4 special weapons <confused face>

If Scion Squads number 10 models they get 4 special weapon slots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
In all seriousness, why exactly do so many folks want to bring back platoons? I remember in 5-7th editions, I loved using platoons and thought they were great in the context of those editions. But in 9th, I don't really understand what problem would be fixed by recreating platoons. We can take lots of every force organization slot very easily with the current detachment system.

Many players play pure infantry Guard. That requires 3 battalions to field 18 infantry squads, which costs 6 CP and requires a minimum of 6 mandatory HQ slots.

Bringing back Platoons means you could fit that into a single detachment. Meaning you've just saved a ton of CP and points from HQ tax. Though I would prefer we bring back the old 3rd - 3.5 edition Platoons. Not the 5th - 7th edition ones.

If I did my math right, firing at Marine Intercessors within 12", assuming the sarge has a plasma pistol (overcharged), then 8 lasguns@2shots (no FRFSRF) each plus

- 1 Lasgun (no special/heavy weapons): 0.4W
- 1 Meltagun: 1.9W (note, this includes the damage that waaaayyy overkills the marine)
- 1 Plasmagun (overcharged): 1.3W
- 1 Lascannon: 1.3W
- 1 HB: 1.0W

So I'd say best shooting loadout within 12" is:
- Sarge with Plasma Pistol
- 1xMeltagun
- 1xlascannon (includes the Lasgun)
- 6xLasguns

which yields about 2.3 mean wounds.

so under FRFSRF, that would be 2.5W. However, the math changes because of the MG & LC, where Take Aim! would be a bigger buff to those weapons, so the total damage goes to ~2.8 (remember the MG way overkills the marine). Now if you're Cadian and don't move, so you re-roll all hits, then the average damage of MG/LC/PP/7xLG goes to about 3.5.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Jeez, it's like the bloody War Convocation all over again when it comes to the "free upgrades".

When there's basically one must-take option that is extremely expensive, that's what is going to be taken. It was going to be taken whether it was free or paid for.

So, exactly what happens when one uses Power Levels over points?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Jeez, it's like the bloody War Convocation all over again when it comes to the "free upgrades".

When there's basically one must-take option that is extremely expensive, that's what is going to be taken. It was going to be taken whether it was free or paid for.

So, exactly what happens when one uses Power Levels over points?

Zinger

1) Make Heavy Weapon teams Elite. Buff to moving and shooting with missiles and maybe heavy stubbers. They shouldnt be so static unless its a mortar team

2) Give vehicles armor facing values again / 10th edition change to 5th ed vehicle rules

3) Give Imperial Guard access to blast templates again, less random D6 shots, more blast rules similar to 4th edition

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So, exactly what happens when one uses Power Levels over points?

Not in my experience. If someone is playing with a competitive or tournament mindset it doesn't matter what is used because they're going to use that system to their advantage regardless. The game balance is scuffed to the point where Power vs Points doesn't matter because some armies are just utterly amazing in both systems. T'au in Power and T'au in points are still going to turn you into soup.
My group isn't competitive but in a 2v2 game, the T'au and Custodes players still both dropped horrendous amounts of damage on each other while I and the other player just kinda watched the fireworks. Neither was playing the meta lists, were essentially learning their new tactics and profiles, all while taking stuff that wouldn't be unexpected in their respective armies but yet they still wiped the floor with each other.

Jarms48 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
For those of us taking notes, what is this best choice Infantry Squad that everyone will be taking

The best choices are:
- Special: Plasma/Melta
- Heavy: Heavy bolter/Lascannon
- Sergeant: Plasma pistol and power sword
- Take the vox

As opposed to when points are used, when exactly that same loadout is taken...

 Kanluwen wrote:
Jeez, it's like the bloody War Convocation all over again when it comes to the "free upgrades".

When there's basically one must-take option that is extremely expensive, that's what is going to be taken. It was going to be taken whether it was free or paid for.

I really hate this change. It basically made every <Regiment> infantry unit that's not an Infantry Squad useless. Why should I bother taking a Veteran Squad now? After factoring in all the costs for their upgrades that's basically 2 Infantry Squads with all the free wargear options. Command Squads might still be situationally viable, but I'd have like to see their Regimental Standard and Medi-kit become free too.

I love and hate this change for exactly this reason.

It's a great showcase of exactly why I keep saying they need to split out Infantry Squads into being different types.
It's a great showcase of exactly why I keep saying they need to really do something to make Command Squads into more of a bodyguard-esque unit than a Special Weapons Squad replacement like most people run them.
It's a great showcase of exactly why I keep saying that opening up some design space for different types of units(infantry and otherwise!) in different slots would be great.

I hate that it basically took them having a moment of saying "Screw it! Do whatever!" to finally get it into some of the thick skulls on here.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
For those of us taking notes, what is this best choice Infantry Squad that everyone will be taking

The best choices are:
- Special: Plasma/Melta
- Heavy: Heavy bolter/Lascannon
- Sergeant: Plasma pistol and power sword
- Take the vox

As opposed to when points are used, when exactly that same loadout is taken...

....Where? Plasma I'll grant you, but I'm pretty sure Sergeant melee upgrades aren't taken outside fluff/meme lists, voxes aren't always taken as that's a significant point investment when you start getting into lists above ~1k points, and the last I heard a lot of people were opting for completely naked Infantry Squads (where they bother to take Infantry Squads at all) so they could squeeze out points for Manticores/TCs/allied detachments/etc.

I would like

1. As said before return to the platoon command structure meaning something. Easier or better orders only allowed in command chain of platoon.

2. Option to choose to be defensive or offensive, at start of battle. Defensive and you get a “dug in” bonus to saves until you move. Offensive you get a bonus to advance and a preliminary barrage. Or something like that.

3. A boost for taking tank squadrons. Like a combined fire, or all random number of shots weapons fire at max number if squadron in coherency (6”)

Why not have Infantry Squads function in the same way as Leman Russ's?
Change the unit name to Infantry Platoon or Infantry Squads and have it as a one-unit base then up to two additional units added on. That way you still need to fill out the basic slots with single squad units but then have the option to expand without going over the limit.

I still think Command Squads should be split like the Marine version, and change how the various Commanders can be taken in a list to a manner similar to Marines. So it would be something like:

For every Company Commander, you make take two Platoon Commanders without taking up a force org slot (that being an HQ slot).
For every <Officer> model you may include a unit of Guard Veterans (change it so they start at 2 models) without taking up a force org slot (that slot being Elites).
For every unit of Guard Veterans, you may include a Standard Bearer/Medic/Regimental Advisors without taking up a force org slot (again being Elites).

That way if you only want the Banner or a Master of Signals you still can but if you want it all then you don't waste all the slots.

 Gert wrote:
Why not have Infantry Squads function in the same way as Leman Russ's?
Change the unit name to Infantry Platoon or Infantry Squads and have it as a one-unit base then up to two additional units added on. That way you still need to fill out the basic slots with single squad units but then have the option to expand without going over the limit.

This is an avenue I could support, but expand upon more.

Re-introduce platoons as a troop option with these caveats.
1-5 Infantry Squads
*0-1 Command Squad (including Platoon commander)
**0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads
**0-3 Special Weapon Squads
**0-1 Conscripts

*You can only include these units if this platoon contains 2 or more Infantry Squads
**You can only include these units if your platoon contains a command squad. No more than 1 Heavy/Special squad per infantry squad included in the platoon.

Along with this make veterans a troop option outside of the platoon

Because the 40k "engine" doesn't work like that.
It's fine for Leman Russes because they're single model units, you can just say every unit goes it's own way.

If you tried that with infantry squads, it'd be an absolute word salad trying to constrain people to splitting the super-unit they've bought into actual Infantry Squads.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Because the 40k "engine" doesn't work like that.
It's fine for Leman Russes because they're single model units, you can just say every unit goes it's own way.

If you tried that with infantry squads, it'd be an absolute word salad trying to constrain people to splitting the super-unit they've bought into actual Infantry Squads.

Word salad has never been a design constraint for GW B team.

I'm not so sure it would. Something like this:

This unit contains one Infantry Squad. It can include an additional Infantry Squad (X Power Rating) or two additional Infantry Squads (X Power Rating)
Each Infantry Squad consists of 1 Sergeant and 9 Guardsmen.
- Each Guardsman is armed with a Lasgun and Frag Grenades
- Each Sergeant is armed with a Laspistol and Frag Grenades.
Wargear options:
- A single Guardsman in each squad may be equipped with a Vox Caster.
- Two Guardsmen in each squad may form a HWT who must take an item from the HW list.
- A single Guardsman in each squad may exchange their Lasgun with an item from the SW list.
- Each Sergeant may replace their Laspistol with an item from the Ranged Weapons list.
- Each Sergeant may take a Chainsword or Power sword.

Then put in the Vox caster ability at the bottom.
If not that then an army rule called "Massed Ranks" or something where Infantry Squads ignore the limitations on Troop force org slots. You'd still get Conscripts and Scions with limits but you could do your platoons to the heart's content.