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So according to information online, Tau pulse weaponry fires plasma projectiles (accelerating and ionising solid matter cartridges in order to do so). Unlike other plasma weapons in the game though, pulse weapons lack serious AP (the blaster can achieve AP2 at short-range, but is otherwise AP1 alongside the pulse rifle, and weapons like the pulse carbine, pulse pistol and burst cannon are AP0).

They also fire much more slowly in the lore, yet this isn't really reflected on the tabletop either.

Part of me wonders (especially with AoC) if pulse weapons should gain AP to represent the fact that they're firing high-velocity plasma... so pulse rifles, carbines, pistols, burst cannons and long-range blasters would all be AP2 (or at least AP1), close-range blasters could be AP3, etc. These AP values would still fall short of Tau plasma rifles (Strength 8, AP4).

They could also have their RoF reduced. E.g. pulse rifles could go back to Heavy 1 (not as big a deal in 9th Ed., since you can still move and fire), pulse carbines and blasters could be Assault 1, burst cannons could lose a shot or two, etc.

Aren't Ion weapons the Tau equivalent of Plasma weapons, not pulse weapons? (stat-wise not lore wise).

A few things:
* "Plasma" in 40k doesn't really act like plasma. If it did, you'd expect it to "wound" a slapped together ork truk more reliably than it does. It's just abstract "pretty lethal but not melta lethal" stuff.

* Despite the weapon description, tau pulse weapons aren't really treated like plasma. They're more like generic Star Wars blasters. Just like how lasguns don't seem to operate on the same principles as lasers. Tau plasma rifles *are* treated like plasma and are consistent with other "safe" plasma profiles like that of the eldar starcannon.

* Please, please, please do not give an AP buff to pulse weapons. Maybe consider taking away the AP buff they just got. This is classic arms race stuff. Marines ignore some AP because there's too much AP-1/-2 floating around. There's a bunch of AP-1/-2 floating around probably partly because marines got a power (and wounds) boost in early 9th/late 8th. We must break the cycle, noble spoon. We must.

Yes, Tau should be even deadlier at range combat. Add AP to everything!

Mariongodspeed wrote:
Aren't Ion weapons the Tau equivalent of Plasma weapons, not pulse weapons? (stat-wise not lore wise).

Pretty much. Ion weapons can be overcharged and "get hot" like imperial plasma. Plasma rifles are the actual "plasma" weapons and are treated similarly to eldar plasma weapons.

Mariongodspeed wrote:Aren't Ion weapons the Tau equivalent of Plasma weapons, not pulse weapons? (stat-wise not lore wise).

Apparently ion weapons function more like particle beam weapons.

Tau have actual plasma rifles, and they're more powerful than Imperial plasma guns (higher Strength, AP, and Damage... 1 Damage higher than even supercharged plasma guns).

Wyldhunt wrote:"Plasma" in 40k doesn't really act like plasma. If it did, you'd expect it to "wound" a slapped together ork truk more reliably than it does. It's just abstract "pretty lethal but not melta lethal" stuff.

Why a trukk? Aren't most plasma weapons already wounding trukks on 3s?

Wyldhunt wrote:Despite the weapon description, tau pulse weapons aren't really treated like plasma. They're more like generic Star Wars blasters. Just like how lasguns don't seem to operate on the same principles as lasers. Tau plasma rifles *are* treated like plasma and are consistent with other "safe" plasma profiles like that of the eldar starcannon.

I know, that's the problem. But you get hit by a pulse weapon, you're being hit by high-velocity plasma. They're 100% plasma weapons in practice.

How are lasguns not lasers?

Wyldhunt wrote:Please, please, please do not give an AP buff to pulse weapons. Maybe consider taking away the AP buff they just got. This is classic arms race stuff. Marines ignore some AP because there's too much AP-1/-2 floating around. There's a bunch of AP-1/-2 floating around probably partly because marines got a power (and wounds) boost in early 9th/late 8th. We must break the cycle, noble spoon. We must.

EviscerationPlague wrote:Yes, Tau should be even deadlier at range combat. Add AP to everything!

If that better represents them on the tabletop, why not? Also compensated by a reduction in shots, surely?

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Mariongodspeed wrote:Aren't Ion weapons the Tau equivalent of Plasma weapons, not pulse weapons? (stat-wise not lore wise).

Apparently ion weapons function more like particle beam weapons.

Tau have actual plasma rifles, and they're more powerful than Imperial plasma guns (higher Strength, AP, and Damage... 1 Damage higher than even supercharged plasma guns).

Wyldhunt wrote:"Plasma" in 40k doesn't really act like plasma. If it did, you'd expect it to "wound" a slapped together ork truk more reliably than it does. It's just abstract "pretty lethal but not melta lethal" stuff.

Why a trukk? Aren't most plasma weapons already wounding trukks on 3s?

Wyldhunt wrote:Despite the weapon description, tau pulse weapons aren't really treated like plasma. They're more like generic Star Wars blasters. Just like how lasguns don't seem to operate on the same principles as lasers. Tau plasma rifles *are* treated like plasma and are consistent with other "safe" plasma profiles like that of the eldar starcannon.

I know, that's the problem. But you get hit by a pulse weapon, you're being hit by high-velocity plasma. They're 100% plasma weapons in practice.

How are lasguns not lasers?

Wyldhunt wrote:Please, please, please do not give an AP buff to pulse weapons. Maybe consider taking away the AP buff they just got. This is classic arms race stuff. Marines ignore some AP because there's too much AP-1/-2 floating around. There's a bunch of AP-1/-2 floating around probably partly because marines got a power (and wounds) boost in early 9th/late 8th. We must break the cycle, noble spoon. We must.

EviscerationPlague wrote:Yes, Tau should be even deadlier at range combat. Add AP to everything!

If that better represents them on the tabletop, why not? Also compensated by a reduction in shots, surely?

No, double the shots. If we're doing something stupid for a purely fluff reason, then go all the way with it.

ERJAK wrote:
No, double the shots. If we're doing something stupid for a purely fluff reason, then go all the way with it.

You're going the wrong way tho. Zero shots maybe?...

It's because they're lower-yield (and much safer) then Imperial plasma tech.

Jesus Christ AP-2 on standard infantry? The game is already in a terrible state because of AP madness.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:"Plasma" in 40k doesn't really act like plasma. If it did, you'd expect it to "wound" a slapped together ork truk more reliably than it does. It's just abstract "pretty lethal but not melta lethal" stuff.

Why a trukk? Aren't most plasma weapons already wounding trukks on 3s?

Went with trukk to take super special space metal out of the equation and to give an example of a vehicle that's vaguely similar to a real-world vehicle we're all familiar with. Plasma wounds on 3s. Meaning that whatever 40k "plasma" is, it fails to burn a hole through the scrap metal that a trukk is made of 1 out of 3 times. And like, sure, abstraction is a thing. But non-overcharged imperial plasma is apparently low-energy enough that it only does 1 damage meaning it isn't sufficient to kill something like a drukhari grotesque or a kroot rider in a single shot. So while in-universe it's "plasma," what that means doesn't have to line up with our expectations of real-world plasma. Like how pistol rounds in some movies can send people spinning off into the distance or how normal people in superhero settings can survive seemingly lethal harm or kick each other across the room. Basically, 40k "plasma" behaves however the writers want it to at that moment, so exactly how a tiny bit of pulse rifle plasma behaves can be wildly inconsistent with other real-world and in-universe plasma.

Wyldhunt wrote:Despite the weapon description, tau pulse weapons aren't really treated like plasma. They're more like generic Star Wars blasters. Just like how lasguns don't seem to operate on the same principles as lasers. Tau plasma rifles *are* treated like plasma and are consistent with other "safe" plasma profiles like that of the eldar starcannon.

I know, that's the problem. But you get hit by a pulse weapon, you're being hit by high-velocity plasma. They're 100% plasma weapons in practice.

See above. Basically, plasma's behavior is wildly inconsistent in-universe. We don't need pulse weapons to match imperial plasma weapons. And if we do, then we should probably talk about overhauling all plasma-fluffed weapons. (Although that might be bad for gameplay.)

How are lasguns not lasers?

They're described as shooting discrete "bolts" of energy similar to Star Wars blasters. A laser would be more about keeping a continuous beam focused on more or less the same spot. Like a sentinel beam from Halo. That's just not how lasguns are depicted as working.

If that better represents them on the tabletop, why not? Also compensated by a reduction in shots, surely?

Basically, 40k is full of weapons whose rules don't necessarily match the hypothetical physics of the weapons' lore if you think about them too hard. The pulse rifle is meant to be a pew pew Star Wars style blaster rifle that fire warriors are comfortable firing while on the move. You could change them to Heavy 1 weapons that pack more of a punch and make it balanced. Heck, you could maybe even argue that that makes pulse rifles and pulse carbines more interesting, but it's clearly not the behavior the designers had in mind nor does it necessarily lead to better gameplay. (It could, but we're kind of in don't fix it if it ain't broke territory. And error injection is always a consideration.)

 blood reaper wrote:
Jesus Christ AP-2 on standard infantry? The game is already in a terrible state because of AP madness.

Just buff Armour of Contempt more, IDK. /s

 blood reaper wrote:
Jesus Christ AP-2 on standard infantry? The game is already in a terrible state because of AP madness.

Intercessors have been firing at AP-2 in Tactical Doctrine for a while now.

Yes it's bad. Just pointing it out.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Jesus Christ AP-2 on standard infantry? The game is already in a terrible state because of AP madness.

Intercessors have been firing at AP-2 in Tactical Doctrine for a while now.

Yes it's bad. Just pointing it out.

You mean AP-3 with Stalkers in Devastator?

Kaied wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Jesus Christ AP-2 on standard infantry? The game is already in a terrible state because of AP madness.

Intercessors have been firing at AP-2 in Tactical Doctrine for a while now.

Yes it's bad. Just pointing it out.

You mean AP-3 with Stalkers in Devastator?

I guess so.

"Plasma" covers a lot of ground.

Modern scientists have managed to create plasma at 1 degree above absolute zero.

So plasma can exist at a great range of temperatures. Presumably Tau pulse weapons are fairly low temperature plasma weapons - safe and reliable, but mostly for shooting infantry. Imperial plasma is high temperature plasma - dangerous to the user due to barely contained energies.

 blood reaper wrote:
Jesus Christ AP-2 on standard infantry? The game is already in a terrible state because of AP madness.

Scions called, lol. Though I guess low/high, whatever, good AP were always the Scion thing ever since they became their own thing.

 John Prins wrote:

Modern scientists have managed to create plasma at 1 degree above absolute zero.

So that's what they put in the Baja Blast Mountain Dew!

Hecaton wrote:It's because they're lower-yield (and much safer) then Imperial plasma tech.

Well the Tau have actual plasma rifles too, and they're basically Imperial plasma guns on steroids (additional Strength, AP and damage than even supercharged plasma, without any risk to the wielder).

blood reaper wrote:Jesus Christ AP-2 on standard infantry? The game is already in a terrible state because of AP madness.

Why is AP on basic infantry necessarily a bad thing, rather than a characterful and faction-defining one)? And as others have said, it's already a thing elsewhere (and less deservedly so IMO).

Let's not shy away from AP just because power armour doesn't give a 2+ Sv (yet).

John Prins wrote:"Plasma" covers a lot of ground.

Modern scientists have managed to create plasma at 1 degree above absolute zero.

So plasma can exist at a great range of temperatures. Presumably Tau pulse weapons are fairly low temperature plasma weapons - safe and reliable, but mostly for shooting infantry. Imperial plasma is high temperature plasma - dangerous to the user due to barely contained energies.

That's a good point. The article I linked in the OP though does specify that pulse weapons "do a great deal of damage on impact, mostly due to the extreme thermal energy of the plasma mass and the speed with which the projectile impacts, which helps ensure that armoured targets are more heavily damaged".

Wyldhunt wrote:Plasma wounds on 3s. Meaning that whatever 40k "plasma" is, it fails to burn a hole through the scrap metal that a trukk is made of 1 out of 3 times. And like, sure, abstraction is a thing. But non-overcharged imperial plasma is apparently low-energy enough that it only does 1 damage meaning it isn't sufficient to kill something like a drukhari grotesque or a kroot rider in a single shot. So while in-universe it's "plasma," what that means doesn't have to line up with our expectations of real-world plasma.

Ya, but wounding on a 3 essentially means that it has a 67% chance of a hit damaging votal components. A 1-2 could represent you hitting the bumper, or melting the chassis in a way that doesn't affect the vehicle's function, etc. Plasma is dangerous enough that ⅔ of all impacts will damage your vehicle in a way that impedes its function (if not blocked by armour on heavier vehicles).

Wounds represent the number of redundant systems you have to knock out to fully incapacitate something (although they can be very arbitrary at times, I'll give you that).

Wyldhunt wrote:We don't need pulse weapons to match imperial plasma weapons. And if we do, then we should probably talk about overhauling all plasma-fluffed weapons. (Although that might be bad for gameplay.)

Which would be very cool.

Also it's not just Imperial weaponry; as I've said above, Tau have plasma rifles that already behave similarly to Imperial plasma guns (on steroids).

Wyldhunt wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
How are lasguns not lasers?

They're described as shooting discrete "bolts" of energy similar to Star Wars blasters. A laser would be more about keeping a continuous beam focused on more or less the same spot. Like a sentinel beam from Halo. That's just not how lasguns are depicted as working.

Isn't this a point of contention? Most sources (including wikis) seem to depict them firing an actual laser.

Wyldhunt wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
If that better represents them on the tabletop, why not? Also compensated by a reduction in shots, surely?

The pulse rifle is meant to be a pew pew Star Wars style blaster rifle that fire warriors are comfortable firing while on the move. You could change them to Heavy 1 weapons that pack more of a punch and make it balanced. Heck, you could maybe even argue that that makes pulse rifles and pulse carbines more interesting, but it's clearly not the behavior the designers had in mind nor does it necessarily lead to better gameplay. (It could, but we're kind of in don't fix it if it ain't broke territory. And error injection is always a consideration.)

What's funny though is that pulse rifles and carbines used to be Heavy and Assault 1 respectively IIRC. And the lore around pulse rifles certainly depicts them as more stationary, slow-firing weapons than something like a lasgun or bolter.

Isn't this a point of contention? Most sources (including wikis) seem to depict them firing an actual laser.

Maybe? I'm not aware of any contention. Every visual depiction of them that I can recall (DoW video games, the 9th edition trailer, the recent hammer and bolter animation) seems to treat them like SW blasters. Pretty sure I recall mentions multiple firing modes and having fewer shots if you amp up your guns power in the Gaunt's Ghosts books. Which all makes me think that they fire individual projectiles rather than continuous beams. I think scatter las (the "shotgun laz variant) as described in the Fantasy Flight RPG books fired a spread of projectiles. Which seems like an odd description if the weapon is functionally creating half a dozen continuous beams or something.

From what I recall, lasgun wounds are generally described as "craters" in the target's flesh or as though the area around the impact burst or got fried by the energy. Which seems like the sort of thing you'd see from a SW blaster rather than a continuous beam of heat energy.

I definitely don't remember descriptions of panicked guardsmen holding down on the trigger and having the result be described as a continuous beam. I guess it's possible that the gun intentionally turns off the beam after a split second to avoid creating hazards when guardsmen die with death grips or something.

If they could, I imagine that guardsmen facing astartes would just sort of... hold down on the trigger and keep their laser pointers glued to the marine's face until damage happened. I don't recall anyone ever doing that, but I do recall marines losing eyes to lucky that go through their eyelenses. If a lasbolt is capable of puncturing an eyelense, then you'd think even a briefly continuous beam would be relatively "easy" to drag across your target's helmet. I mean, it would still be a carefully aimed shot, but I'd expect trenches full of guardsmen to be popping marine eyeballs at a pretty quick pace.

Wyldhunt wrote:

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Isn't this a point of contention? Most sources (including wikis) seem to depict them firing an actual laser.

Maybe? I'm not aware of any contention. Every visual depiction of them that I can recall (DoW video games, the 9th edition trailer, the recent hammer and bolter animation) seems to treat them like SW blasters.

This... just isn't true? In both DoW1 and DoW2 for example, Guardsmen fire coherent laser beams, not blaster-like projectiles (I haven't played DoW3, so not sure if lasguns appear in that at any point). It's the same in the Space Marine game(s). The 9th Ed trailer seemed to depict them that way too (or at the very least, inconclusively). I haven't seen the Hammer and Bolter animation.

Wyldhunt wrote:Pretty sure I recall mentions multiple firing modes and having fewer shots if you amp up your guns power in the Gaunt's Ghosts books. Which all makes me think that they fire individual projectiles rather than continuous beams. I think scatter las (the "shotgun laz variant) as described in the Fantasy Flight RPG books fired a spread of projectiles. Which seems like an odd description if the weapon is functionally creating half a dozen continuous beams or something.

Yeah, they have adjustable power levels (i.e. the energy draw of each shot). There's no reason this makes less sense with laser beams than projectiles though (more, probably). I haven't read the RPG books, but they seem like an outlier.

Wyldhunt wrote:From what I recall, lasgun wounds are generally described as "craters" in the target's flesh or as though the area around the impact burst or got fried by the energy. Which seems like the sort of thing you'd see from a SW blaster rather than a continuous beam of heat energy.

I definitely don't remember descriptions of panicked guardsmen holding down on the trigger and having the result be described as a continuous beam.

I think depictions of wounds vary... sometimes lasguns puncture neat little cauterised holes in things, sometimes they blast off limbs as the laser explosively vapourises the target's flesh.

And a laser doesn't have to be continuous. To my understanding, a lasgun 'shot' is a split-second discharge. It might even comprise a rapid-fire sequence of pulses.

Well Bolters are basically rapid firing rocket launchers but of course they're not as deadly as an actual missile, so I guess they should be 3 shots 36", S6 and Ap-2.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well Bolters are basically rapid firing rocket launchers but of course they're not as deadly as an actual missile, so I guess they should be 3 shots 36", S6 and Ap-2.

Bit of Poe's law here, but yep, boltguns should be more powerful/characterful than they currently are. I've been posting elsewhere about them being S4 AP1 Damage 2 (or even Damage D3)... less outright powerful and penetrating than a pulse weapon, but capable of causing grievous internal wounds when they do penetrate via their delayed detonations.

This would also give them a lot more function as anti-MEQ weapons, which makes sense lore-wise in the context of the Horus Heresy.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Well the Tau have actual plasma rifles too, and they're basically Imperial plasma guns on steroids (additional Strength, AP and damage than even supercharged plasma, without any risk to the wielder).

Yes, I'm aware of that. Pulse weapons are still plasma though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

What's funny though is that pulse rifles and carbines used to be Heavy and Assault 1 respectively IIRC. And the lore around pulse rifles certainly depicts them as more stationary, slow-firing weapons than something like a lasgun or bolter.

Pulse Rifles have been rapid fire since they were introduced, you're incorrect about the lore depicting them as more cumbersome than Imperial weapons.

Hecaton wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Well the Tau have actual plasma rifles too, and they're basically Imperial plasma guns on steroids (additional Strength, AP and damage than even supercharged plasma, without any risk to the wielder).

Yes, I'm aware of that. Pulse weapons are still plasma though.

That's been my entire argument here... Could you clarify what you mean?

Hecaton wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
What's funny though is that pulse rifles and carbines used to be Heavy and Assault 1 respectively IIRC. And the lore around pulse rifles certainly depicts them as more stationary, slow-firing weapons than something like a lasgun or bolter.

Pulse Rifles have been rapid fire since they were introduced, you're incorrect about the lore depicting them as more cumbersome than Imperial weapons.

According to the 40k Wiki:
"Compared to other infantry weapons, the Pulse Rifle trades rate of fire for damage. When compared to a Space Marine Bolter, it fires at a far slower rate but does significantly more damage and possesses a greater effective range. Pulse Rifles also have significant recoil, which requires that the user be stationary to fire most effectively. This, combined with the Pulse Rifle's long range, means that Tau troops are best served by staying more or less stationary. Pulse Rifles still retain most of their effectiveness on the move nonetheless, and can be utterly devastating weapons when used correctly."

Sounds like the epitome of Heavy 1 to me.

(I might be wrong about past Heavy 1 status; that was based on my own memories from yonks ago).

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Tau have actual plasma rifles, and they're more powerful than Imperial plasma guns (higher Strength, AP, and Damage... 1 Damage higher than even supercharged plasma guns).

Which is utter gak nonsense because Tau plasma is supposed to be A) far more primitive than even Imperial version, B) never overcharged because Tau supposedly care about safety of their troops (though this was retconned away given they literally give weapon cells to infantry irradiating and killing them faster than even supposedly callous admech approach to rad weapons of 'disposable' skitarii LOL)

I know, that's the problem. But you get hit by a pulse weapon, you're being hit by high-velocity plasma. They're 100% plasma weapons in practice.

They are about as much ""plasma"" weapons as flamers are. Since fire is a plasma, therefore all flamers in the game should have -7 AP by your logic

Wyldhunt wrote:
They're described as shooting discrete "bolts" of energy similar to Star Wars blasters. A laser would be more about keeping a continuous beam focused on more or less the same spot. Like a sentinel beam from Halo. That's just not how lasguns are depicted as working.

Eh, real life lasers also tend to fire pulses because continuous beam would melt it. Not to mention it's easier to gather energy for a single strong shot with capacitors and such than it is to output such energy continuously, which would melt battery and wiring, too.

From what I recall, lasgun wounds are generally described as "craters" in the target's flesh or as though the area around the impact burst or got fried by the energy. Which seems like the sort of thing you'd see from a SW blaster rather than a continuous beam of heat energy.

No, that's actually a thing you see in RL as the spot hit by laser turns into steam. Which is another reason why you do pulses, because lasers lose most of their effectiveness firing though a cloud of vaporized material so it's better to give it a time to disperse.

 Irbis wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
I know, that's the problem. But you get hit by a pulse weapon, you're being hit by high-velocity plasma. They're 100% plasma weapons in practice.

They are about as much ""plasma"" weapons as flamers are. Since fire is a plasma, therefore all flamers in the game should have -7 AP by your logic

And laser pointers are lasers... so lasguns should be S1? Blind anything on a 6!

Nice strawman, but pulse weapons are certainly more like 'conventional' plasma guns (with projectiles in the thousands of degrees Kelvin, possible tens of thousands) than flamers are. Something else I found online:

"The bottom line is that a flame only becomes a plasma if it gets hot enough. Flames at lower temperatures do not contain enough ionization to become a plasma. On the other hand, a higher-temperature flame does indeed contain enough freed electrons and ions to act as a plasma.

For example, an everyday wax candle has a flame that burns at a maximum temperature of 1,500 degrees Celsius, which is too low to create very many ions. A candle flame is therefore not a plasma. Note that the vibrant red-orange-yellow colors that we see in a flame are not created from the flame being a plasma. Rather, these colors are emitted by incompletely-burnt particles of fuel ("soot") that are so hot that they are glowing like an electric toaster element. If you pump enough oxygen into a flame, the combustion becomes complete and the red-orange-yellow flame goes away. With this in mind, it should be clear that a candle flame gives off light even though it is not a plasma. In contrast to candle flames, certain burning mixtures of acetylene can reach 3,100 degrees Celsius, with an associated Debye length of 0.01 millimeters, according to the Coalition for Plasma Science. Such flames are therefore plasmas (as long as the flame is much larger than 0.01 millimeters, which is usually the case). Other flames, including flames from campfires, propane stoves, and cigarette lighters, have temperatures that lie somewhere between these two extremes, and therefore may or may not be plasma. Everyday flames such as from the burning of wood, charcoal, gasoline, propane, or natural gas are typically not hot enough to act like a plasma."

(Ironically, laser weapons would probably create more plasma upon impact than flamers would).

 Irbis wrote:
Tau supposedly care about safety of their troops (though this was retconned away given they literally give weapon cells to infantry irradiating and killing them faster than even supposedly callous admech approach to rad weapons of 'disposable' skitarii LOL)

The progression of Ion is a strange one.
It started with the Ion Cannon on Hammerheads and various Forgeworld things. This used the large power capacity of the vehicle to charge the ions, was totally safe.
There was also the rare prototype cyclic ion blaster - which miniaturised the technology in a less powerful but higher RoF package capable of being run from a battlesuit. Still totally safe.

Then, come 6th, they added the Riptide.
This had effectively a slightly lighter ion cannon, which the Riptide could overcharge with it's novareactor. Still, the ion gun was totally safe, it was the novareactor that was harmful.
They also added the ion rifle - allegedly to give Pathfinders more firepower they needed a powersource for the ion rifle. They found some unstable cancer neutron crystal malarky. It was quite explicit that this was purely to get the ion rifle to work in such a small package.
I do agree it's a bit weird - why not just give it to a drone? But Pathfinders have always been described as more reckless and willing to sustain casualties, being outriders without support.

Fast forward to 9th - it seems they either didn't care or didn't realise how it worked, and decided Tau needed their own overcharging "not-plasma" weapons. So now I guess all the weapons cause be overcharged to cause space cancer, but also fired safely if they want?

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

According to the 40k Wiki:
"Compared to other infantry weapons, the Pulse Rifle trades rate of fire for damage. When compared to a Space Marine Bolter, it fires at a far slower rate but does significantly more damage and possesses a greater effective range. Pulse Rifles also have significant recoil, which requires that the user be stationary to fire most effectively. This, combined with the Pulse Rifle's long range, means that Tau troops are best served by staying more or less stationary. Pulse Rifles still retain most of their effectiveness on the move nonetheless, and can be utterly devastating weapons when used correctly."

Sounds like the epitome of Heavy 1 to me.

(I might be wrong about past Heavy 1 status; that was based on my own memories from yonks ago).

That's because the old Rapid Fire rules required you to stay stationary to fire at full effect. They have more recoil because boltguns are gyrojet rockets and actually have very low recoil compared to the size of the projectile, since it accelerates all the way to the target. Recoil from plasma based weapons occurs because the magnetic field needed to impel the projectile towards its target pushes back on the weapon as well, creating a recoil effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:

Which is utter gak nonsense because Tau plasma is supposed to be A) far more primitive than even Imperial version, B) never overcharged because Tau supposedly care about safety of their troops (though this was retconned away given they literally give weapon cells to infantry irradiating and killing them faster than even supposedly callous admech approach to rad weapons of 'disposable' skitarii LOL)

I thought Tau were portrayed as having awesome plasma tech, even with a tech deficit compared to the Imperium's looting of their DAoT precursors.

 Irbis wrote:

They are about as much ""plasma"" weapons as flamers are. Since fire is a plasma, therefore all flamers in the game should have -7 AP by your logic

Yeah there's no reason why different types of plasma weapons wouldn't have different armor penetrating capabilities.

 Irbis wrote:

Eh, real life lasers also tend to fire pulses because continuous beam would melt it. Not to mention it's easier to gather energy for a single strong shot with capacitors and such than it is to output such energy continuously, which would melt battery and wiring, too.

Yup. And that means that something like a multi-laser would look like a flickering beam if there was enough smoke to show it. But because lasers shoot lased light, you wouldn't see it unless there was a lot of moisture in the air (fog basically) or it was shot right into your eye. At the emitter you might see a slight burst of light and energy, and then at the point of impact you'd see the same.

Hecaton wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

According to the 40k Wiki:
"Compared to other infantry weapons, the Pulse Rifle trades rate of fire for damage. When compared to a Space Marine Bolter, it fires at a far slower rate but does significantly more damage and possesses a greater effective range. Pulse Rifles also have significant recoil, which requires that the user be stationary to fire most effectively. This, combined with the Pulse Rifle's long range, means that Tau troops are best served by staying more or less stationary. Pulse Rifles still retain most of their effectiveness on the move nonetheless, and can be utterly devastating weapons when used correctly."

Sounds like the epitome of Heavy 1 to me.

(I might be wrong about past Heavy 1 status; that was based on my own memories from yonks ago).

That's because the old Rapid Fire rules required you to stay stationary to fire at full effect. They have more recoil because boltguns are gyrojet rockets and actually have very low recoil compared to the size of the projectile, since it accelerates all the way to the target. Recoil from plasma based weapons occurs because the magnetic field needed to impel the projectile towards its target pushes back on the weapon as well, creating a recoil effect.

Well Rapid Fire used to benefit from being stationary at long range, but at short range movement didn't matter. Now, going by the decriptions of pulse weapons in the lore, and current rules (where Heavy weapons can actually move and fire, unlike those earlier editions), Heavy 1 fits more appropriately IMO.

And bolters (Astartes ones anyway) supposedly have enough recoil to prohibit regular humans from using them. Combine colossal recoil with gyrojet acceleration and you get an idea of the projectile energies involved.