Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, S3 is pretty weak.
Yes, fluff wise S3 is apparently enough to dismember humans.

Game wise S3 is a wet noodle, and keep in mind that whole dismemberment thing is supposed to showcase just how tough some creatures in the 40k setting can be.

JNAProductions wrote:I ran the math.
It’s a nerf against pretty much anything besides T8 models.

Repeating a statement ad infinitum doesn't actually make it true. This is the post of yours I assume you're referring to (I removed the stuff about bolters):

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against the following profiles, here's how the math shakes out.
MEQ are assumed to have Armor of Contempt, but the T7 and T8 profiles are NOT.

Current Shoota, 2 Shots at BS 5+ S4 AP0 D1
GEQ: .29 damage
MEQ: .11 damage
T7 3+: .07 damage
T8 3+: .04 damage

Current Shoota, 3 Shots at BS 5+ S4 AP0 D1
GEQ: .44 damage
MEQ: .17 damage
T7 3+: .11 damage
T8 3+: .06 damage

Suggested Shoota, 4 Shots at S3 AP0 D1
GEQ: .44 damage or about a 50% improvement at 18", and a statistically insignificant improvement at 9"
MEQ: .15 damage or about a 35% improvement at 18", and a 10% loss at 9"
T7 3+: .07 damage or no change at 18", and a 35% loss at 9"
T8 3+: .07 damage or about a 100% improvement at 18", and a 33% improvement at 9"

Note that the improvement percentages might not match the exact numbers given-that's because of rounding. The percentages should be pretty accurate.

Notice how the Shoota got buffed moderately against GEQ and MEQ at full range. If you got Dakka Range (which you can get from Deepstrike if you're Bad Moons) you're actually LOSING damage.
The only place you do better consistently is against T8 targets, since the reduced Strength is irrelevant. But so is the damage dealt-it would take over 1,000 shots at BS 5+ S3 or S4 AP0 D1 to kill a Knight.

Gaining the most function against T8 3+ targets ≠ being nerfed against others. Not saying it's a straight-up buff either, just that there's way more nuance than you and others keep claiming. The only type of target (out of those above) it definititively didn't get any buff against was the T7 3+ profile. Or maybe if you're Bad Moons? But for every argument about deepstriking into 9" range, there's an opposing argument about the 9"-18" radius actually comprising way more of the weapon's range (a circle with an 18" radius has 4x the area of a circle with a 9" radius, so buffing that 'long range' bracket therefore buffs 75% of the weapon's actual tabletop coverage). I don't hear anybody bringing that up though, strangely enough.

Also everyone conveniently ignored the buff from Dakka to Assault (or got mad at me because "that's not a buff, it's what it should have been all along"... like wat? Get angry at GW, not me). Being able to advance and fire is the opposite of a nerf, whichever way you look at it.

My own maths, colour-coded to highlight the diffs:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
New shoota:
0.44 wounds vs GEQ (50% higher than current shoota at 18", equal at 9").
0.15 wounds vs MEQ (33% higher than current shoota at 18", 11% lower at 9").
0.07 wounds vs TEQ (33% higher than current shoota at 18", 11% lower at 9").
0.07 wounds vs T7 3+ (equal to current shoota at 18", 33% lower at 9").
0.07 wounds vs T8 3+ (100% higher than current shoota at 18", 33% higher at 9").

If we average out the current shoota's 9" and 18" profiles:
0.37 wounds vs GEQ (the new shoota is 20% better).
0.14 wounds vs MEQ (the new shoota is 7% better).
0.07 wounds vs TEQ (the new shoota is 7% better).
0.09 wounds vs T7 3+ (the new shoota is 20% worse).
0.05 wounds vs T8 3+ (the new shoota is 60% better).

Plus it could fire after advancing...

And since this has been dragged into a new thread, I'll clarify again that the original comment was just me casually suggesting an alternative profile for the shoota that I thought would be more fluffy, i.e.:
- More shots.
- Blasted full dakka at any range (none of this 3/2 stuff).
- Would continue to be blasted at full dakka even if the Ork advances (again, none of this 3/2 stuff).
- Bullet impact would probably be similar to a lasgun shot (which in my mind is fairly powerful, even if it doesn't stack up that way in the 40k universe).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, S3 is pretty weak.
Yes, fluff wise S3 is apparently enough to dismember humans.

Game wise S3 is a wet noodle, and keep in mind that whole dismemberment thing is supposed to showcase just how tough some creatures in the 40k setting can be.

It's weaker than higher strengths, sure, but there are multiple stats to any weapon. 100 lasgun hits will wound anything (even without HotE). And if fluff-wise a weapon logically belongs at S3, and with other adjustments can go there without being worse overall (or actually being better), then why not consider it?