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 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Guess they made a breakthrough somewhere/found the on switch for their plasma rifles.

Bobthehero wrote:And I have an example that is the ideal conditions for such to happens that says otherwise.

1. A bolt pistol, not a full-sized boltgun.
2. One random excerpt from one random novel, as opposed to central wiki articles that support my argument.

Also Astartes bolt weapons are supposed to be gene-encoded to their firer... a fact the writer also overlooked (unless I'm missing something?).

A boltpistol would kick far more than a boltgun. See a SW 500 vs a Beowulf .50, similar rounds, one from a pistol and the other from a rifle. The exerpt is actually a description of an event that is happening, the wiki quote is just fluff, there's no proof it's even the truth to begin with (theory vs practice) let alone using a wiki as a source over an actual novel.

Never heard of the gene coded thing, I can think of another example of a Guardsman firing a dead Marine weapon, but that one has a cybernetic arm, so it obviously doesn't shatter, but there's no gene coding or security system to prevent him from shooting the boltgun.

A bolter round is not the 40k equivalent to the a 20mm cannon. That would be an autocannon.

I've assumed autocannons are 40+ mm like the BOFORS and the likes, considering a Heavy Bolter is a 25mm weapon, the same caliber as many modern IFV main gun.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I've assumed autocannons are 40+ mm like the BOFORS and the likes, considering a Heavy Bolter is a 25mm weapon, the same caliber as many modern IFV main gun.

Bolters are .75 caliber, slightly smaller than my 10 Guage shotgun. If bolters were firing shells the size of a 20mm cannon then the magazines on every model, and in every piece of artwork are too short. And even if they were lengthened, they'd only hold about 5 rounds. Not good for a select fire infantry assault weapon.

On that we fully agree.

Yeah, bolter rounds have very different proportions to anti-materiel rounds, and are shaped much more similarly to the 25mm grenade launcher rounds used in the OICW/XM25. I think that is a better starting point for comparisons.

Bobthehero wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Guess they made a breakthrough somewhere/found the on switch for their plasma rifles.

Bobthehero wrote:And I have an example that is the ideal conditions for such to happens that says otherwise.

1. A bolt pistol, not a full-sized boltgun.
2. One random excerpt from one random novel, as opposed to central wiki articles that support my argument.

Also Astartes bolt weapons are supposed to be gene-encoded to their firer... a fact the writer also overlooked (unless I'm missing something?).

A boltpistol would kick far more than a boltgun. See a SW 500 vs a Beowulf .50, similar rounds, one from a pistol and the other from a rifle. The exerpt is actually a description of an event that is happening, the wiki quote is just fluff, there's no proof it's even the truth to begin with (theory vs practice) let alone using a wiki as a source over an actual novel.

Never heard of the gene coded thing, I can think of another example of a Guardsman firing a dead Marine weapon, but that one has a cybernetic arm, so it obviously doesn't shatter, but there's no gene coding or security system to prevent him from shooting the boltgun.

The wikis reference official sources, which in my mind take precedence (or are at the very least, are as credible as a random novelist). Scroll down each page.

Unlike Astartes bolters, the use of bolt pistols by regular humans is fairly commonplace. With full boltguns, it's clear from these articles that Astartes versions are much larger and more powerful than human-sized ones... however it seems less definitive with bolt pistols. They might be smaller for regular human use, they might not be. They might fire a cartridge with less propellent (which would explain their shorter range), they might not.

Gadzilla666 wrote: A bolter round is not the 40k equivalent to the a 20mm cannon. That would be an autocannon.

Regular bolter rounds are literally 19mm, lol. And a heavy bolter round is .998 calibre, or 25.35mm... significantly larger than a 20mm round.

The articles on autocannons don't really specify any calibers (they probably vary quite a bit), but as suggested by Bob above, 20mm would probably be the lower limit rather than the norm. There are plenty of 30mm and 40mm historical/modern cannons that would fit the criteria. I've even seen 40k autocannons described as "similar to twentieth-century tank guns"... the calibers of which can go anywhere up to 105/120/125mm (although I think that was in Rogue Trader).

Gadzilla666 wrote:If bolters were firing shells the size of a 20mm cannon then the magazines on every model, and in every piece of artwork are too short. And even if they were lengthened, they'd only hold about 5 rounds. Not good for a select fire infantry assault weapon.

Probably worth noting that they're supposed to be caseless IIRC? And models aren't necessarily consistent with the lore. According to tabletop, Firstborn Marines are Guardsman-sized or shorter with skeleton thighs.

Bolters are .75 caliber, that puts them in between a 12 Guage (.72) and a 10 Guage (.77) shotgun. I'd start at the Frag-12 explosive 12 Guage shotgun round. Though a bolter would probably have a higher velocity and range because of the rocket propelled part of the round.

Edit: @I_am_a_Spoon: You can't judge a round based solely on its bore diameter. .30 Carbine and 30-06 are the same bore diameter. Go Google those, compare the sizes of the cartridges, and their relative power.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

kirotheavenger wrote:In most depictions pulse rifles aren't shown to be *slow* to fire, just slower.
Heavy 1 would be way too much.

It probably lies somewhere in-between Rapid Fire 1 and Heavy 1, but happy to let this one rest.

Salvo would be a good weapon type to bring back in that case. Which was a combination of rapid fire and heavy.

Haighus wrote:Yeah, bolter rounds have very different proportions to anti-materiel rounds, and are shaped much more similarly to the 25mm grenade launcher rounds used in the OICW/XM25. I think that is a better starting point for comparisons.

Nah, they're more penetrative than a round-nosed projectile like the XM25's. Look how similar their shape is to the 20mm round on the left (excluding the case, bolter rounds are caseless).

Gadzilla666 wrote: Bolters are .75 caliber, that puts them in between a 12 Guage (.72) and a 10 Guage (.77) shotgun. I'd start at the Frag-12 explosive 12 Guage shotgun round. Though a bolter would probably have a higher velocity and range because of the rocket propelled part of the round.

Don't know why people keep picking shotguns as the best analogue for a bolter. Look at the image above, 20mm rounds are a much better match.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote: Bolters are .75 caliber, that puts them in between a 12 Guage (.72) and a 10 Guage (.77) shotgun. I'd start at the Frag-12 explosive 12 Guage shotgun round. Though a bolter would probably have a higher velocity and range because of the rocket propelled part of the round.

Don't know why people keep picking shotguns as the best analogue for a bolter. Look at the image above, 20mm rounds are a much better match.

Because the actual cartridges are closer in size. It has to do with how ballistics work. Again, you can't judge a round based on bore diameter alone.

Edit: Look at your own example picture. That .22 and the 5.56×45mm are the same bore diameter. Do you think they have the same power?

Can you please show me an example? Because every pic of a shotgun slug Google gives me looks extremely far removed.

And yes, look at the picture I showed you. The bolt and the 20mm round are near identical in shape (unlike the two rounds you pointed out), and but for the casing on the 20mm round are visually identical. Who knows what kind of primary charge the bolter uses, but it clearly contains enough power to be lethal and penetrating at point-blank range.

It seems strange for you to dismiss my comparison... while spruiking much less similar shotgun shells and airbursting grenades instead.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

Mariongodspeed wrote:Aren't Ion weapons the Tau equivalent of Plasma weapons, not pulse weapons? (stat-wise not lore wise).

Apparently ion weapons function more like particle beam weapons.

Tau have actual plasma rifles, and they're more powerful than Imperial plasma guns (higher Strength, AP, and Damage... 1 Damage higher than even supercharged plasma guns).

Tau plasma is no longer S6?
Ah nevermind, found my answer.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Tau plasma rifles changed as of the recent 9th ed codex.
They're now Assault 1, 30", S8, AP4, Dmg 3.
This profile is quite different from their old profile and plasma guns in general.

So they hit a lot harder, but are lower rate of fire. This was presumably done to differentiate them from the Cyclic Ion Blasters, which now essentially have the same sort of profile as Imperial plasma (S7/D1 or S8/D2 gets hot).

Well that's dumb. Tau plasma being weaker but more reliable than Imperial plasma had been a thing for years. Now it's just better.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:


Unlike Astartes bolters, the use of bolt pistols by regular humans is fairly commonplace. With full boltguns, it's clear from these articles that Astartes versions are much larger and more powerful than human-sized ones... however it seems less definitive with bolt pistols. They might be smaller for regular human use, they might not be. They might fire a cartridge with less propellent (which would explain their shorter range), they might not.

It all depends on what this line means: ''A Bolt Pistol magazine carries only 6 to 10 rounds of standard Bolter Ammunition, each weighing about 0.08 kilograms and with a diameter of .75 calibre (19.05 millimetres). '' That's straight from your wiki link. If it's a standard Marine round (which, based on the caliber alone, seems to support that, imo) then the pistol lower range would be explain by the short barrel giving less accuracy and making the weapon less accurate at the range a boltgun would be. Would it mean the difference between a boltgun and a bolt pistol firing the same round be the same gap as a 9mm pistol and a 5.56mm rifle? Unlikely, but we can chalk that one up to GW writers having no clue how guns work.

I also pointed out the existence of a .700 Nitro Express round.

Or maybe bolt pistols are just light enough for humans to carry around comfortably?

That was a Marine bolt pistol in my exerpt, it's described as heavy and unwieldy, furthermore, as I've said, a lighter weapon shooting the same round as a heavy weapon would result in more felt recoil, as such, everything within that was in favor of the breaking arm/ripping arm of socket thing.

As for what takes priority, I personally go for specifics over broad descriptions.

No I meant that perhaps that perhaps there's no human version of bolt pistol because humans can still use it even though its heavy and unwieldy.
If they can avoid having to create a special version of a weapon, then they would, so as to ease logistical and manufacturing burdens.
The Imperium having issues with logistics is a common theme of the setting, after all.

How heavy is a loaded bolt pistol supposed to be anyway?

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Can you please show me an example? Because every pic of a shotgun slug Google gives me looks extremely far removed.

And yes, look at the picture I showed you. The bolt and the 20mm round are near identical in shape (unlike the two rounds you pointed out), and but for the casing on the 20mm round are visually identical. Who knows what kind of primary charge the bolter uses, but it clearly contains enough power to be lethal and penetrating at point-blank range.

It seems strange for you to dismiss my comparison... while spruiking much less similar shotgun shells and airbursting grenades instead.

You're comparing an entire bolter shell, casing, projectile and all, to just the projectile from the 20mm. The 20mm has way more mass in the projectile, that alone means more power, even if you're assuming that the bolter has some kind of "space magic" propellant inside of it. And I never mentioned "airbursting grenades". You can't just assume that rounds are the same because they "look alike", especially when they don't.

And before you say that bolter shells are "caseless" again: explain the ejection port on every boltgun ever, and both the artwork and fiction that depicts them ejecting casings.

Human scale Bolt Pistols are the same as Astartes variants.
As for the part about regular humans finding Astartes Boltguns difficult to use, it comes from Index Astartes III pg.58 according to Lexicanum (which BTW should be used over the 40k Wiki because it actually uses citations). It specifically says difficult though, not impossible. The tradeoff for a human between a Laspistol and Bolt Pistol seems to come down to the Laspistol being weaker but easier to use and the Bolt Pistol being more unwieldy for most users but comes with much greater killing power, as well as the fear factor when in the hands of a Commissar.

 Gert wrote:
Human scale Bolt Pistols are the same as Astartes variants.
As for the part about regular humans finding Astartes Boltguns difficult to use, it comes from Index Astartes III pg.58 according to Lexicanum (which BTW should be used over the 40k Wiki because it actually uses citations). It specifically says difficult though, not impossible. The tradeoff for a human between a Laspistol and Bolt Pistol seems to come down to the Laspistol being weaker but easier to use and the Bolt Pistol being more unwieldy for most users but comes with much greater killing power, as well as the fear factor when in the hands of a Commissar.

I second this- Lexicanum is the better wiki.

The model range also supports this somewhat- whilst human bolt pistols come in a variety of sizes and there are smaller ones, the commonest pistols are virtually indistinguishable from Marine pistols. I recently was building a veteran guardsmen confidant for Kill Team, and the GSC cult neophyte bolt pistol, Scion bolt pistol, and Space Marine scout bolt pistol are sized identically and very similar in structure. The Baneblade commander bolt pistol is smaller, but likely represents a finely crafted weapon intended to be handy for tank use.

In another example- a Space Marine gifts their bolt pistol to Inquisitor Eisenhorn, who uses it just fine.

Laspistols do also have a reliability and logistics edge, having rechargeable ammunition.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:


Lolwat? 20mm is a light cannon.

Bolts are rocket propelled grenades.



You can see here that the Neopup which is a 20mm grenade launcher has shorter rounds. About the same as 12.7mm

Given that a "pulse rifle" and a "plasma rifle" are distinct weapons with distinct stats is it possible that "plasma" as in "hot ionized gas" in the lore description for pulse rifles doesn't mean exactly the same thing as "plasma" in the name of "plasma rifle"? Perhaps the hot ionized gas from one is hotter than the other. Perhaps the one fires a higher-velocity plasma bolt than the other.

Possibly, but there's no indication of that and the wiki specifically mentions its armour-piercing capabilities.

Bobthehero wrote:It all depends on what this line means: ''A Bolt Pistol magazine carries only 6 to 10 rounds of standard Bolter Ammunition, each weighing about 0.08 kilograms and with a diameter of .75 calibre (19.05 millimetres). '' That's straight from your wiki link. If it's a standard Marine round (which, based on the caliber alone, seems to support that, imo) then the pistol lower range would be explain by the short barrel giving less accuracy and making the weapon less accurate at the range a boltgun would be.

Sounds like it does carry proper bolter ammo. The shorter barrel would also give the rounds much less time to accelerate before leaving the muzzle.

Bobthehero wrote:I also pointed out the existence of a .700 Nitro Express round.

I didn't know about that (must have missed your comment). Its energy is definitely much lower. The only things that make me think this isn't a better fit than the 20mm Vulcan is that:
- It's a big game round that isn't designed to penetrate armour (and in fact, wouldn't want to overpenetrate targets).
- It's a bit further away from the calibre of a bolter. The wikipedia article says that one version of the round has 10x the recoil of a Winchester .308?

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Can you please show me an example? Because every pic of a shotgun slug Google gives me looks extremely far removed.

And yes, look at the picture I showed you. The bolt and the 20mm round are near identical in shape (unlike the two rounds you pointed out), and but for the casing on the 20mm round are visually identical. Who knows what kind of primary charge the bolter uses, but it clearly contains enough power to be lethal and penetrating at point-blank range.

It seems strange for you to dismiss my comparison... while spruiking much less similar shotgun shells and airbursting grenades instead.

You're comparing an entire bolter shell, casing, projectile and all, to just the projectile from the 20mm. The 20mm has way more mass in the projectile, that alone means more power, even if you're assuming that the bolter has some kind of "space magic" propellant inside of it. And I never mentioned "airbursting grenades". You can't just assume that rounds are the same because they "look alike", especially when they don't.

And before you say that bolter shells are "caseless" again: explain the ejection port on every boltgun ever, and both the artwork and fiction that depicts them ejecting casings.

I know my comparison doesn't take the full casing size of a 20mm Vulcan into account, but:
- I was also talking about the shape of the round. Bolter ammo isn't blunt-nosed, it has pointed tips for armour penetration. And if you look at the nose shape of those rounds, they're extremely similar.. because they have the same purpose.
- The full casing size of the 20mm round is just to contain the proplellent. The projectile that strikes a target would be a similar mass (or at least, shape) to a bolter round. My point about handwavium propellent is that the same mass might only require a much smaller volume of 41st- Millennium propellent to accelerate to similar velocities.

My bad about the "airbursting grenade" remark; the comment I was referring to was actually from Haighus.

Jarms48 wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Lolwat? 20mm is a light cannon.

Bolts are rocket propelled grenades.



You can see here that the Neopup which is a 20mm grenade launcher has shorter rounds. About the same as 12.7mm

Well as said above, they're not just rocket-propelled grenades IMO. I think that's an oversimplification. Think higher velocity (the Neopup only fires at 310m/s?), greater penetration, possibly less of an explosion (I certainly don't think a detonating bolter round would have much of a kill radius).

My guess would be somewhere between this and the Vulcan 20mm.

As an aside, that's an extremely cool weapon.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Given that a "pulse rifle" and a "plasma rifle" are distinct weapons with distinct stats is it possible that "plasma" as in "hot ionized gas" in the lore description for pulse rifles doesn't mean exactly the same thing as "plasma" in the name of "plasma rifle"? Perhaps the hot ionized gas from one is hotter than the other. Perhaps the one fires a higher-velocity plasma bolt than the other.

Its probably to make the distinction between a "true" plasma weapon (one that uses ionized superheated gas as its primary source of ammunition) and what is basically a rail gun (it uses a magnetic field to propel a projectile at high velocities that just happens to generate plasma due to friction).

Didn't the US navy rail gun tests also generate plasma around the projectile?

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Possibly, but there's no indication of that and the wiki specifically mentions its armour-piercing capabilities.

Bobthehero wrote:It all depends on what this line means: ''A Bolt Pistol magazine carries only 6 to 10 rounds of standard Bolter Ammunition, each weighing about 0.08 kilograms and with a diameter of .75 calibre (19.05 millimetres). '' That's straight from your wiki link. If it's a standard Marine round (which, based on the caliber alone, seems to support that, imo) then the pistol lower range would be explain by the short barrel giving less accuracy and making the weapon less accurate at the range a boltgun would be.

Sounds like it does carry proper bolter ammo. The shorter barrel would also give the rounds much less time to accelerate before leaving the muzzle.

[

But the force of the initial explosion to propel the bolt out of the pistol would be the same as that of a bolter, except the pistol is light than the bolt and would thus kick harder than the full sized bolter.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Given that a "pulse rifle" and a "plasma rifle" are distinct weapons with distinct stats is it possible that "plasma" as in "hot ionized gas" in the lore description for pulse rifles doesn't mean exactly the same thing as "plasma" in the name of "plasma rifle"? Perhaps the hot ionized gas from one is hotter than the other. Perhaps the one fires a higher-velocity plasma bolt than the other.

Its probably to make the distinction between a "true" plasma weapon (one that uses ionized superheated gas as its primary source of ammunition) and what is basically a rail gun (it uses a magnetic field to propel a projectile at high velocities that just happens to generate plasma due to friction).

Didn't the US navy rail gun tests also generate plasma around the projectile?

I guess that's the main point of contention. I definitely wouldn't call it a typical railgun... the projectile seems to be composed of plasma once it leaves the weapon. Besides, the Tau already have an actual rail rifle, with a different (and somewhat terrifying) profile of R30", Heavy 1, S8, AP4, D3.

What's really intriguing to me though is that "pulse" weapons span an unusual range of AP values (from AP0 on most of the pulse infantry weapons to AP4 on others). I guess this isn't too much different from the range of AP values on las weapons, but that doesn't make much sense either tbh.

The 40k wiki says this:

"The Pulse Rifle works by electromagnetically accelerating a plasma shell down its barrel. In effect, it is a miniature mass accelerator. On firing, a ferromagnetic, solid slug is chambered from the magazine and turned into plasma by electromagnetic induction, as it would be relatively easy to alternate the coil current at frequencies sufficient enough to heat the coil to an extreme temperature while keeping it in the chamber. The solenoid is then charged fully, propelling the newly produced plasma out of the gun at an extreme velocity while keeping it cohesive."
...
Though this electromagnetic field continues to keep the plasma together until impact, residual plasma is expelled from the barrel to produce the weapon's considerable muzzle flash."
...
"Pulse Weapon rounds do a great deal of damage on impact, mostly due to the extreme thermal energy of the plasma mass and the speed with which the projectile impacts, which helps ensure that armoured targets are more heavily damaged. The electromagnetic field that holds the charge together flattens on impact slightly before breaking, which causes the resulting impact to spread over a wider area than would otherwise be possible. The speed at which the plasma projectile is launched is so extreme, that in some cases, it has been known to 'light the air on fire'."

Lexicanum says something a little different:

"It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an induction field accelerates a particle which breaks down as it leaves the barrel." ... which makes them a little like ion weapons.

I know people say that Lexicanum is the better wiki, but the former does tend to have more info, and lists its sources at the bottom of each page.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Given that a "pulse rifle" and a "plasma rifle" are distinct weapons with distinct stats is it possible that "plasma" as in "hot ionized gas" in the lore description for pulse rifles doesn't mean exactly the same thing as "plasma" in the name of "plasma rifle"? Perhaps the hot ionized gas from one is hotter than the other. Perhaps the one fires a higher-velocity plasma bolt than the other.

Its probably to make the distinction between a "true" plasma weapon (one that uses ionized superheated gas as its primary source of ammunition) and what is basically a rail gun (it uses a magnetic field to propel a projectile at high velocities that just happens to generate plasma due to friction).

Didn't the US navy rail gun tests also generate plasma around the projectile?

I guess that's the main point of contention. I definitely wouldn't call it a typical railgun... the projectile seems to be composed of plasma once it leaves the weapon. Besides, the Tau already have an actual rail rifle, with a different (and somewhat terrifying) profile of R30", Heavy 1, S8, AP4, D3.

What's really intriguing to me though is that "pulse" weapons span an unusual range of AP values (from AP0 on most of the pulse infantry weapons to AP4 on others). I guess this isn't too much different from the range of AP values on las weapons, but that doesn't make much sense either tbh.

The 40k wiki says this:

"The Pulse Rifle works by electromagnetically accelerating a plasma shell down its barrel. In effect, it is a miniature mass accelerator. On firing, a ferromagnetic, solid slug is chambered from the magazine and turned into plasma by electromagnetic induction, as it would be relatively easy to alternate the coil current at frequencies sufficient enough to heat the coil to an extreme temperature while keeping it in the chamber. The solenoid is then charged fully, propelling the newly produced plasma out of the gun at an extreme velocity while keeping it cohesive."
...
Though this electromagnetic field continues to keep the plasma together until impact, residual plasma is expelled from the barrel to produce the weapon's considerable muzzle flash."
...
"Pulse Weapon rounds do a great deal of damage on impact, mostly due to the extreme thermal energy of the plasma mass and the speed with which the projectile impacts, which helps ensure that armoured targets are more heavily damaged. The electromagnetic field that holds the charge together flattens on impact slightly before breaking, which causes the resulting impact to spread over a wider area than would otherwise be possible. The speed at which the plasma projectile is launched is so extreme, that in some cases, it has been known to 'light the air on fire'."

Lexicanum says something a little different:

"It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an induction field accelerates a particle which breaks down as it leaves the barrel." ... which makes them a little like ion weapons.

I know people say that Lexicanum is the better wiki, but the former does tend to have more info, and lists its sources at the bottom of each page.

40k Wiki has more info because it is frequently dubiously sourced and often includes a lot of interpolation or even flat out fan fiction. Yes it lists sources at the bottom, but it’s not uncommon for them to be completely misrepresented. The fact that the inaccurate stuff is liberally mixed it with some direct quotes and also paraphrasing of whole novels doesn’t help either. Great for flavour on a lot of topics, but not really an authoritative source.

Lexicanum is much stricter on accurately presenting what the sources say (hence people say it is the better wiki), but the downside of that is there is less in it. Great for lore discussions (as it is usually very accurate), but fairly restricted in what it actually has.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Everything about this tells me 40k might not be the best fit for you, as far as settings go. 40k is a heavy metal album cover, not a mil-sim. Physics mean nothing, recoil is fake, armor is only as relevant as the plot. Something doesn't make sense? Space magic.

I feel like you're telling this to the wrong guy. I want these weapons to feel metal.

40k is military sci-fi. It's fun to talk and hypothesise about the tech in it. That's half the fun of all science fiction IMO. A boltgun is based on existing firearms. Las, plasma and melta weapons try fairly hard to align themselves within the realm of scientific possibility (if not probability). So do most non-Imperial weapons (Tau, Tyranid, Eldar, etc). Not to say there isn't space magic and handwavium aplenty, but there are also practical concepts that aren't too hard to visualise in reality.

You’re the one who wants things to feel metal but then you say ork bullets are supposed to be s3…
I’ve noticed your threads have this sort of inconsistency with stuff like that.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Everything about this tells me 40k might not be the best fit for you, as far as settings go. 40k is a heavy metal album cover, not a mil-sim. Physics mean nothing, recoil is fake, armor is only as relevant as the plot. Something doesn't make sense? Space magic.

I feel like you're telling this to the wrong guy. I want these weapons to feel metal.

40k is military sci-fi. It's fun to talk and hypothesise about the tech in it. That's half the fun of all science fiction IMO. A boltgun is based on existing firearms. Las, plasma and melta weapons try fairly hard to align themselves within the realm of scientific possibility (if not probability). So do most non-Imperial weapons (Tau, Tyranid, Eldar, etc). Not to say there isn't space magic and handwavium aplenty, but there are also practical concepts that aren't too hard to visualise in reality.

You’re the one who wants things to feel metal but then you say ork bullets are supposed to be s3…
I’ve noticed your threads have this sort of inconsistency with stuff like that.

Shootas? Yep, I did casually suggest that at one point... and now, keep having to explain myself over and over because people don't read my posts properly. Or provide any decent rebuttal other that "boo hoo, you're biased", despite the new profile demonstrably not being a nerf (can't help but notice that you declined to mention all the other factors that made it an overall buff mathematically ).

As for 'metalness', S3 is the strength at which I picture human limbs potentially being blasted off (aka high-powered bullets, lasguns, etc.). Maybe your head-canon is different.

I ran the math.
It’s a nerf against pretty much anything besides T8 models.