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Recently, the Star Trek novelverse came to an end. Citing the fan backlash to Disney dropping the Star Wars Extended Universe, the Star Trek novel writers decided to give their setting a definitive end—they killed everyone, blew it up and erased the timeline. Apparently the writers hadn’t heard about the fan backlash to GW blowing up the Warhammer world.

So, what do you think is the better fate for a series? Would you prefer a definitive ending, even if it is necessarily catastrophic? Or would you prefer the series simply stopped, never tying up loose threads or finishing long-running story arcs? Why do you feel that way?

Just leave things alone.

Sometimes "unfinished" is better than completed.

I mean... you could just stop? Especially for an EU that is just 'the continuing mission' just... stop writing new missions?

I guess I'm a bit surprised. Was the novel series' unpopular? Maybe a stupid question. I've watched DS9 like, 9 times at least and I've never read any of the books...

Killing everyone seems kind of needlessly dumb though. But I guess I'm also completely uninvested in most EUs at this point. Got other stuff going on.

I don’t know how profitable the novel series was, but a lot of the character advancements seemed to resonate with fans, even if those fans were only tangentially a are of them through Memory Beta or the forums. At least one of the novel writers was poached to work on Star Trek Discovery…

CBS is still publishing about 6 Star Trek novels a year, but now all set in TOS or in the nuTrek settings.


I was pretty upset when WHFB’s Old World was destroyed. I haven’t read much WHF since then, when I used to reread Gotrek or Brunner or something every other year. This Star Trek ending seems even worse to me. At least Age of Sigmar remembers the time that was.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I was pretty upset when WHFB’s Old World was destroyed. I haven’t read much WHF since then, when I used to reread Gotrek or Brunner or something every other year. This Star Trek ending seems even worse to me. At least Age of Sigmar remembers the time that was.

I actually hate that a lot. The old characters are doing the same old thing all over the blank slate, except they're gods now, because reasons. Except Gotrek, who doesn't even have a real excuse for still failing at his one job.

----
I'm surprised to hear that about the star trek novels. It seems... spiteful. Just let it end with the sense that the universe keeps on spinning. Don't drop rocks on everything, don't give it to anyone's kids (poor Dune), just... let it go.
To do otherwise seems all kinds of disrespectful to everyone involved.


But the Star Trek novels have always been a little weird. Which is how you get Xmen and Dr Who crossover novels.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Planet_X_(novel)

Destroying a setting is, in my opinion, this:

We made a new thing.
We want you to love the new thing.
Forget about the old thing, love the new thing already!

Which is to say, it's about trying to make the old setting unappealing in order for the new setting to compete, rather than making the new setting appealing on its own merits. I can't get behind that.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I was pretty upset when WHFB’s Old World was destroyed. I haven’t read much WHF since then, when I used to reread Gotrek or Brunner or something every other year. This Star Trek ending seems even worse to me. At least Age of Sigmar remembers the time that was.

I don't care for this particular connection of Age of Sigmar with the old setting. GW should have left the latter alone and made the former its own thing, and have them connected as a Warhammer setting via the shared Realm of Chaos/Warp. They didn't have to blow up the old setting and they didn't have to have survivors of the literal end of the world ('tis but a scratch) running around in the new setting. They could have just come up with something actually new instead. I'm not opposed to Age of Sigmar. I want to like it for the things that make it its own, over the top magic setting. But I hate how they're cannibalizing the corpse of the old setting for characters to twist into caricatures of themselves. Seeing that kind of bs crop up never fails to take me out of the story.

An abandoned setting means that you can always go back to it

A destroyed setting means that the final option has been used. There is nothing left to go back to, and the damage is already done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An abandoned setting means that you can always go back to it

A destroyed setting means that the final option has been used. There is nothing left to go back to, and the damage is already done.

I'm trying to think of a setting that was destroyed and DIDN'T face massive backlash from the fans... and I can't think of one.

Chronicle of Narnia? The Last Battle is basically an apocalypse.

I mean it's a bit of a loaded question, isn't it? It's like asking someone "Do you want to be punched in the face?" because it's a pretty obvious "No" as an answer. People don't like to see their favorite things change or go away.
That being said, sometimes it can be a good thing. IDW Comics' first Transformers run lasted from 2008 to 2018 and had over 400 issues, numerous side series, and one-shot stories that expanded the universe like never before. It took G1, Beast Wars, the Unicron Trilogy, and the Japanese continuity and created a brilliant setting and story. IDW ended its first run (as Transformers tends to do) by having Unicron destroy a butt load of planets and kill loads of characters, including the big man Optimus Prime. With this ending came a new continuity that gave a whole new story that had similarities to IDW 1 but was still very different. The stories from IDW 1 aren't gone and the impact they had on the franchise spilled into the movies and tv shows which is pretty rare for TF. I've read through the various series a lot and even though I know the story ends the same way, it doesn't really matter because those stories are still good. The new series is equally as good but since it's a new setting, the writers can do different things with the characters. The Megatron from IDW 1 was a disillusioned miner who led the workers of Cybertron in a revolution against a corrupt government. In IDW 2 he is an ex-soldier who wants to instill his vision for the future and ruthlessly removes anyone who stands in his way. They are both Megatron and both lead the Decepticons but their motivations and reasons are entirely different.

 LordofHats wrote:
Chronicle of Narnia? The Last Battle is basically an apocalypse.

Yeah but they all got to live on and hang out with Lion Jesus forever. Instead of just being dead by trainwreck.

Except Susan.

So basically there is an implied '...' there, where the characters don't stop but presumably continue to harass magical animals and be child-monarchs in bliss and glory and whatever.

 Vulcan wrote:
I'm trying to think of a setting that was destroyed and DIDN'T face massive backlash from the fans... and I can't think of one.

I can, just because the story is so bizarre: Greyhawk. Yes, as in D&D, Gary Gygax and so forth.

See, towards the end of his time at TSR, Gary starting writing the Gord the Rogue novels (they were real bad, by the by). About mid way through, TSR ousted him and took the company away. But he kept writing the books and publishing them under a new company. Eventually the series ends with the release of Tharizdun and the destruction of the entire Greyhawk/D&D universe, and the characters become demiurges in a new universe. The last couple books are entirely spite.

But it didn't generate much backlash, despite Gygax's near-deification among some D&D fans. It wasn't 'official' anymore, and it turns out at the time, that Gygax the man mattered a lot less than TSR the company or D&D the brand.
It was also pre-Internet, so beyond muttering at the game store or conventions, and sending angry letters, there wasn't much people could do to express their bitter disappointment that the primary author took an imaginary version of his toys and went home (after being kicked to the curb).

The Time of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms (and later the 4e 'merger' of Aber & Toril) and the various...god-abandonment cycles inflicted on the Dragonlance setting generated a _lot_ more ill-will, despite the settings continuing on. Greyhawk eventually ended up neglected and abandoned, just vaguely referenced from time to time. (largely, IMO, because the setting didn't have a schtick or popular characters. It was just generic D&D land, with vaguely unidentifiable European countries where nothing much ever happened. If I recall, they tried to do a Great War campaign that rather fizzled and they largely gave up)

I general the setting hanging around would seem to be preferable if the writer(s) who created it actually own it

unless it's continued existence threatens their mental, physical or creative health, there's only so much grief some can take from demanding 'fans' crapping on anything new you write as it's not a new book in [insert series name here]

and simply killing the character(s) doesn't really work as Conan Doyle found out especially if you've faded to black screen

The other very good reason i can see for making the whole setting go away is if you don't trust what might be coming down the track, the IP owners may be agreeable to everything ending with a bang now, but if you don't light the fuse perhaps in a couple of years you'll end up with something terrible being done with characters and settings you very much feel are yours (even if your a writer for hire)

now whether that's why the Trek novel verse ended they way it did or whether they just felt backed into a corner they couldn't get out of from all the time jump recton kerfuffle coming from the tv shows nominally part of their universe (perhaps with implications they'd have to work them in with insufficient books to work out ongoing plotlines) i don't know

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Recently, the Star Trek novelverse came to an end. Citing the fan backlash to Disney dropping the Star Wars Extended Universe, the Star Trek novel writers decided to give their setting a definitive end—they killed everyone, blew it up and erased the timeline.

Isn't that a bit pointless though? It's Star Trek - where multiple universes are a thing.
All anyone has to do to carry on with anything they blew up is write another book - this time set in alternate universe x. Who's only divergence from all the previous crap is that the "rocks fall, everyone dies" story didn't happen....

An Exult for Voss for mentioning Susan, I've never felt so cheated by a book than by The Last Battle, unless something went odd in Jack's brain and it was a strange warning about blind faith vs being a grown up, after that I just stuck to Stormbringer books, no subtext there....

ccs wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Recently, the Star Trek novelverse came to an end. Citing the fan backlash to Disney dropping the Star Wars Extended Universe, the Star Trek novel writers decided to give their setting a definitive end—they killed everyone, blew it up and erased the timeline.

Isn't that a bit pointless though? It's Star Trek - where multiple universes are a thing.
All anyone has to do to carry on with anything they blew up is write another book - this time set in alternate universe x. Who's only divergence from all the previous crap is that the "rocks fall, everyone dies" story didn't happen....

The problem is, is that the timeline you are jumping on to isn't the same timeline we have been on. Star Trek does have multiple timelines, but only as plot devices or for stories, never a major focus.

I'm a little surprised there was a Star Trek 'novelverse' to end, to be honest. It's admittedly been a few years since I picked up a Star Trek novel, although I used to collect as many of them as I could get my hands on. But last I heard they were considered non-canon and any continuity outside of each writer's own work was largely ignored.

If a setting is going to come to an end, though, then giving it a definitive ending (even if it's to destroy the whole thing) would be my preference.

At the very least make sure that existing story arcs are given a chance to wind up... It bugs me that there were unfinished story threads in the Star Wars EU, and the completionist in me really wants to know how they were supposed to play out.


On a related note, I have a similar gripe about TV shows being cancelled with story arcs unfinished. I'd love to see more shows given a similar treatment to Firefly, where if they're not going to be continued they at least have an opportunity to close off the hanging plot threads and say goodbye.

 BlackoCatto wrote:

ccs wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Recently, the Star Trek novelverse came to an end. Citing the fan backlash to Disney dropping the Star Wars Extended Universe, the Star Trek novel writers decided to give their setting a definitive end—they killed everyone, blew it up and erased the timeline.

Isn't that a bit pointless though? It's Star Trek - where multiple universes are a thing.
All anyone has to do to carry on with anything they blew up is write another book - this time set in alternate universe x. Who's only divergence from all the previous crap is that the "rocks fall, everyone dies" story didn't happen....

The problem is, is that the timeline you are jumping on to isn't the same timeline we have been on. Star Trek does have multiple timelines, but only as plot devices or for stories, never a major focus.

Eh. I'm honestly not sure what's supposed to be the 'real' Star Trek timeline now. I'm not sure how it could be the original series/TNG/DS9 timeline at this point. Even without the reboot movies and Picard, Voyager and Enterprise had multiple instances that turned everything into swiss cheese, and Discovery somehow had a totally different tech base for propulsion and genetic tampering all over. Or whatever was going on there.

 Vulcan wrote:
I'm trying to think of a setting that was destroyed and DIDN'T face massive backlash from the fans... and I can't think of one.

I just thought of one that comes pretty close.

Well. It depends.

If we look at Warhammer, destroying the world kind of made sense. It was always a possibility in the background, and it allowed something new and more fantastical to be created. But as we’re seeing, where there are still tales to be told in The World That Was, there’s nothing stoping anyone doing that, either through WHFRP, Total War, Old World, the existing novels or just playing old editions.

I get why it put people’s noses out of joint of course. But unless you were the edgiest edgelord that ever edged and burnt your army for clicks, the game existed no more or less than it ever had.

Then…there’s Star Wars. Some of the old EU was very solid fare. But then…some of it was utter, utter tripe. I’ll leave it to the individual to decide which is which because any other approach is just inviting a scrap. Though if you think the Yuuzhan Vong were cool, give your head a wobble.

And we’ve seen elements reintroduced in different ways. Ship designs and roles recovered (Quasar Class, TIE Defender to name but two) and characters (such as Thrawn). Again I’m not going to be definitive here, but for my money they’re sifting the Good from the Bad, and putting it back in.

So for those two, each had their own advantage. And neither makes a great deal of difference to Head Canon or TTRPG type stuff.

Black Adder:

The Black Adder - nearly everyone dies.
Blackadder II - everyone dies
Blackadder Goes Forth - everyone dying might just be one of the best bits of writing ever immortalised in TV.