Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi girls and guys,

I was wondering about the Primaris of all ranks, and their experiences from wars and battles.

How can the rank of any officer be given to a Primaris marine, when they have no experience like the First Bornes?

Even if they are given those ranks, are they respected as much as a First Borne? A First Borne Marine could have more battles under his belt than a Primaris officer. Just seems odd.

Would a First Borne Captain and a Primaris Captain have the same authority and command the same kind and size of forces?

Chaospling wrote:
How can the rank of any officer be given to a Primaris marine, when they have no experience like the First Bornes?

It's not that they don't have any experience, it's just simulated combat and hypno indoctrination. Officers were given ranks by proving themselves in these simulations the same way officers are generally promoted in modern armies. But they were thrown right into the fire and by the end of the first phase of the Indomitus Crusade and the Plague Wars, there were plenty of combat veterans among the Mars-born Primaris and now they largely advance in rank the same way as Firstborn did.

Even if they are given those ranks, are they respected as much as a First Borne? A First Borne Marine could have more battles under his belt than a Primaris officer. Just seems odd.

Generally speaking, Primaris officers are subordinate to their Firstborn brethren, unless they crossed the Rubicon Primaris like Calgar or Blackmane, or they have specific skills that would warrant their command of a theatre, for example, an Imperial Fist Lieutenant could be given command of the defence of a fortress over a White Scar Khan or Space Wolf Lord.

Would a First Borne Captain and a Primaris Captain have the same authority and command the same kind and size of forces?

They would both command a Company of Astartes. The authority is situational, as it is with all Captains.

It’s also worth mentioning the Indomitus Crusade has rattled on for a cou-one of centuries at least by now.

Add in existing Command Structure getting the upgrade treatment, and there you have it.

Chaospling wrote:
Hi girls and guys,

I was wondering about the Primaris of all ranks, and their experiences from wars and battles.

How can the rank of any officer be given to a Primaris marine, when they have no experience like the First Bornes?

Even if they are given those ranks, are they respected as much as a First Borne? A First Borne Marine could have more battles under his belt than a Primaris officer. Just seems odd.

Would a First Borne Captain and a Primaris Captain have the same authority and command the same kind and size of forces?

The first generation of Primaris officers had their command apptitude judged via examinations during their induction and the periods between stasis. Later on they'd follow the more typical marine process of advancing through the ranks. The Indomitus novel features this, showing a recently and unthawed Captain and Lieutenant working with a marine who gained the Lieutenant rank through battlefield promotion.
In regard to the firstborn, Marines usually decide who's in charge based on rank, and from rank seniority. So an experienced firstborn captain would typically have command of an inexperienced Primaris captain. The Apocalypse novel does have an Imperial Fists Primaris Lieutenant be given command over more senior firstborn Marines. I can't remember the reason off the top of my head, but it was voluntary.

It was a siege situation and the White Scars and Raven Guard captains were attackers not defenders.

I don't know if the WD "stories" count as canon, but there was the Newly created Primaris Chapter that was exterminated by Custodes for refusing a direct order to stand down. One could charitably chalk this up to "inexperience" or being a Rookie. I doubt a Firstborn Captain would have made that mistake. That being said, I am not 100% sure I recall every aspect of that specific circumstance.

In official canon books, the DoW series shows Bobby G meeting some of the new Primaris, and finding them "raw". Prone to strong emotion, but not bad. Just, untested.

That was the Primaris reinforcements for the Brazen Drakes who had started an internal conflict after the Psychic Awakening caused many of their Astartes to exhibit psychic powers.
The Primaris Captain begged the Custodian to aid the loyalist elements but the Custodian (like so many of his pompous brethren) hates all Astartes and basically took it as a free pass to kill those he hated.

Wow, don't look now but your bias is showing.

Its not bias if its true. The Custodes generally consider themselves superior in every way to Astartes and it often just boils down to "Daddy loves me more because I was first" and holding a massive grudge because Horus did a Heresy.

See Horus. Horus does a Heresy. Heresy, Horus, Heresy!

I mean, primaris have been fighting hard for decades at this point. There's no reason to think they haven't earned their wings as it were.

First born? I mean your occasional veteran that is left from the old days might have a century or three of experience but not all firstborn marines are that. At the time the primaris joined there'd be plenty marines who literally just joined the reserve companies (6th through to 9th) from the scouts for example and more than a few marines in the battle companies (2nd through to 5th) with only a decade or two of experience themselves.

Remember as well, prior to indomitus the space marine chapters had been battered brutally by all manner of foes, often to the brink of survival and will have suffered enormous casualties themselves - I have no doubt that prior to the current era, loads of experienced brothers will have been lost. And not just the era just prior to indomitus.
Mass casualties would be far from unknown for most chapters - fire hawks finished badab with less than two hundred brethren for example. Consider those circumstances - plenty primaris will be seen to have as much as any firstborn.

This whole thread just give me Gorman vibes

"at this point" in fluff terms, its my understanding that theres very few firstborn left in most chapters and they've mostly been replaced by Primaris marines, either as a result of attrition of firstborn and all new marines being produced via the Primaris process, or as a result of firstborn marines crossing the rubicon Primaris (god I hate that phrase). In that sense the questions you pose are no longer really valid, as the Primaris marines have been around for 100-200 years and have gained plenty of their own battlefield experience, but also because the firstborn aren't necessarily around anymore either.

Some chapters (BA, SW) are more long lived than others, with some marines around a millennium of service in rare cases. But chaplain cassius is called out as being ancient as an ultramarine, at around 400 years old.

I know they’ve re-jiggered the timeline a bit, but I thought we were a couple hundred years post-primaris. That is plenty of time for them to work their way through the ranks, earn their veteran’s honors, etc. And that’s not counting the shortcut of firstborns going through the upgrade process.

Its about 30ish years IIRC since the Rift opened at the end of the Plague Wars. Plus the Primaris were in almost constant combat ops during that time meaning they got a lot of experience really quickly. That being said there are now very few raw Mars-born recruits left in the ranks of the Primaris and many Chapters are using their own recruits as they did with the Firstborn.

It seems a lot of people are not familiar with the 9th edition changes.

Primaris have NOT been around for 100+ years. All references to them having been around that long were changed in the reprinting of the Dark Imperium series. It has been, at most, two to three decades. There are still a sizable number of Firstborn around, though obviously that depends on the chapter.

As for the Brazen Drakes, I encourage everyone to read it closely: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/04/20/psychic-awakening-consequences/

There were no loyalists among the original Brazen Drakes. The Inquisition had deemed them all heretics. There was no begging on the part of the Primaris Brazen Drakes, there was shouting. The Custodes were in the wrong for declaring the Primaris BD heretics by blood association. The Primaris BD were in the wrong for making up the idea that there could still be loyalist survivors despite the Inquisition already stating otherwise. The Custodes were in the wrong for immediately jumping to violence to shut them up. THAT SAID! How many times in 40k has some transhuman said, "I should kill you for that," or "I have killed others for less." Well for once, we actually get to see that happen.

Not only that, but how often has inaction in the face of Chaos led to bad results? Custodes don't give second chances. And that isn't posturing. The greatest threat to Humanities existence was caused by the Horus Heresy. Which lead to the greatest failure in the history of the Custodes. They think the Emperor "dying" was there fault. So yeah, they take it seriously when a group of fresh from the vat of an often heretical minded creates what is basically heresy in the flesh, neophytes disregards a DIRECT ORDER by a CUSTODES Captain.

Also, the whole 100+ years thing is wrong. They might be less then 100+ since release from the vaults, but the being "Primus" that over watches the demonstration with the Ultras is far older than many of the Ultras there. He's not Dante, but nor is he 15 Terran years old. The Primaris project is over 1000's of years old.

Their creation was initiated on Mars on the order of Primarch Roboute Guilliman in the days immediately after the Second Founding in the early 31st Millennium.

jareddm wrote:
It seems a lot of people are not familiar with the 9th edition changes.

Primaris have NOT been around for 100+ years. All references to them having been around that long were changed in the reprinting of the Dark Imperium series. It has been, at most, two to three decades. There are still a sizable number of Firstborn around, though obviously that depends on the chapter.

This isn't entirely accurate. While the events of the Dark Imperium series take place over the course of maybe 10-20 years now, that doesn't mean that events have not continued to occur beyond that point - particularly as several codecies reference events that seem to occur several decades later.

Is there an "up to date" timeline showing where the timeline is approx currently... I am curious...

jareddm wrote:
The Primaris BD were in the wrong for making up the idea that there could still be loyalist survivors despite the Inquisition already stating otherwise.

Inquisitors are usually sociopathic lying sacks of gak so I'm with the BD on this one.