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Well... I think it's a shame that the lore doesn't have enough depth to tell us the differences between the same kind of troops from Craftworld to Craftworld. Chapters and Legions differentiate because of different temper and traditions and so a Space Marine from one Chapter doesn't behave like one from another Chapter.

Have you thought about what could differentiate two Howling Banshees from two different Craftworlds?

Or could you list general skills/personalities for the known Craftworlds?

Remember, it's at troop level, not army level.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/10 15:37:47


Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
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Enginseer with a Wrench






From what I remember I believe that the aspect warriors are more standardized then other Eldar warriors as the aspect shrines are a mostly seperate cultural group to the rest of the Craftworlds so it would make sence, especially if you factor in the psychological chages one goes though joining a shrine, that aspect warriors are similar across Craftworlds.

That being said it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for warriors to gain the temperment of the Craftworld they are from like Saim-heims brashness and aggressiveness or Ulthwes dourness.
   
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Leader of the Sept







Doesn’t even need to be between different craft worlds. If there are multiple shrines to the same aspect on one craft world, they could have different fighting styles. Ultimately, differences would come down to a few archetypes I think under something like the following categories:
- things bigger/smaller than the eldar
- multiple/single targets
- heavy/light armour
- fast/slow things

The sl’gsqush’r shrine of Alaitloc being famous for excelling against multiple small slow targets with no armour

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Battleship Captain





The Shire(s)

I also get the impression that the nature of the Craftworld affects which Aspects are more common there. I am sure you will find proportionally more Shining Spears in Saim-Hann, for example. Especially belligerent Aspects like Fire Dragons might be more common in Biel Tan, and so on.

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Leader of the Sept







Ooh… thought of another thing for the list:
- more/fewer limbs/weapons than the eldar.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Longtime Dakkanaut




We can see some implied differences in fighting style with how the Exarchs are armed, though these differences may not be enough to matter at the level of granularity of the 40K rules.

For example, with Banshees we see the Exarchs armed with executioner, mirror swords, or triskele. These seem to be attempts to emulate their founding Phoenix Lord Jain Zar's Blade of Destruction, "Storm of Silence" moniker/storm of attacks, and Silent Death respectively. So each of the Aspect shrines may have a greater emphasis on one aspect of Jain Zar. Those where the Exarch is armed with an executioner may emphasize the power of their melee attacks, whereas one where the Exarch is armed with mirror swords may emphasize speed of melee attacks first over power. The Exarch powers too may suggest what they focus on. An Exarch with the power Nerve-Shredding Shriek and the relic Cronescream (or an equivalent one like it) may be from a Shrine that emphasizes the Banshee Mask's powers, honing the scream to the point where the Exarch melts people's brains with their screams.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/07 04:25:42


 
   
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Hacking Shang Jí





Fayetteville

Chaospling wrote:
Well... I think it's a shame that the lore doesn't have enough depth to tell us the differences between the same kind of troops from Craftworld to Craftworld. Chapters and Legions differentiate because of different temper and traditions and so a Space Marine from one Chapter doesn't behave like one from another Chapter.


Unfortunately, this is just a side effect of the sheer amount of attention that the marines get. Eldar lore was established a long time ago hasn't really changed much over the years. They added Autarchs in 4th edition and did the Ynnari stuff in 8th, but the basic template has basically been established since 2nd.


Have you thought about what could differentiate two Howling Banshees from two different Craftworlds?


No. I've thought about how to represent Banshees from two different shrines on the tabletop. I've also thought about how it would be cool to have rules that supported a build-your-own-warlock mechanic where you could outfit a warlock to show his path in the past. Something similar to how you can build an autarch with the various aspect weapon options and making the warlock eligible to join the relevant aspect squad. Afterall, the 2nd edition codex says that warlocks kept their helms in the aspect shrines and can only retrieve them from the exarch as part of a blood ritual.


Or could you list general skills/personalities for the known Craftworlds?


The craftworlds are generally differentiated by their signature units.

Saim Hann - Jetbikes
Iyanden - Wraith units
Alaitoc - Rangers
Ulthwe- Guardians
Biel tan - All the aspects.

Further differentiation of the already hyper specialized aspects is hard to support given what lore we already have. I think Iracundus has the right tack here by choosing different exarch loadouts to represent differences between squads from different shrines.





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Well thanks guys. Didn't know about the Shrines, so that's great, thanks.

The thing is that I'm writing a Biel-Tan codex, so I was hoping to make the Aspect Warriors Biel-Tan special, not Shrine special. One idea was indeed to add Aspect upgrades to Warlocks, representing the Biel-Tan Craftworld devotion to the Aspects at every possible level... Maybe even something for the Guardians...?

Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
Made in us
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Fayetteville

Chaospling wrote:
Well thanks guys. Didn't know about the Shrines, so that's great, thanks.


I didn't know about them until I read Path of the Warrior, the first book in the Eldar path series. It's a good read and I recommend you pick it up if you want more information on aspect warrior shrines.



The thing is that I'm writing a Biel-Tan codex, so I was hoping to make the Aspect Warriors Biel-Tan special, not Shrine special. One idea was indeed to add Aspect upgrades to Warlocks, representing the Biel-Tan Craftworld devotion to the Aspects at every possible level... Maybe even something for the Guardians...?


Guardians is something I've thought about as well. Currently there's no representation of guardians who had previously walked one of the warrior paths. The lore doesn't go deep enough into how craftworlds mobilize for war. There's some of that in the Eldar path novels showing the autarch and exarch councils. But there's nothing about how guardians get organized. What do you do with eldar civilians who were previously on a warrior path? Does a former Dire Avenger put his war mask back on? He'd have to go to a shrine for the ritual. Or do guardians just not do any of that? Maybe some of this differentiation can be handled with the crusade rules where units earn bonuses during a campaign, because there's not a lot of room between the basic guardian "conscript" and the Dire Avenger professional.

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I recall that Eldar that had previously followed the Path of the Warrior lead Guardian Defender squads or form Guardian Storm squads.
   
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As others have mentioned the path of the eldar series shines light on this. In particular the path of the warrior. There are a multitude of differences between the various shrines. Without spoiling we get to see two striking scorpion shrines in path of the warrior. One is a swamp with extensive vegetation and dim light, awareness being key to fighting there. The other is a desert. Dunes of sand and plenty of light. There being sure footed matters way more. The two exarchs in charge of the shrines have different opinions on how a striking scorpion should be. There is talk of the “old ways” of doing things. A conflict that sadly isn’t developed.

As related to differences of warriors between craftworlds though the books bring up one particular thing. It’s a little difficult to explain without spoilers, but I’ll try. A craft world is kind of alive. There’s psychic echoes all over and certain events can be felt all across a craft world. Both by its inhabitants and the craft itself. Remember that every single eldar is a psyker. The craftworld is filled with the souls of dead eldar in constant circulation in it’s very walls. When the craftworld needs warriors many eldar will feel an urge to take on a warriors path. If a shrine that’s been dormant for long suddenly becomes active (for whatever reason) it’s usually filled with eldars very shortly. They simply feel a call in their psyche. Now it’s a little bit of a stretch but let’s say the craftworld is in need of stealthy warriors. It might have an influx in striking scorpions that would specialize in stealth. Let’s say it had a need for ferocious front liners. Again this could be filled by striking scorpions, but they might get better at fighting upfront rather then the stealthy approach. This is because the craftworld might prioritize the scorpion shrines that trains the warriors in a particular up front style. Instead of shrines that focus on a more stealth oriented one. This need might be because of particular fighting styles that’s dominant throughout the craftworld. As I said this phenomena is very difficult to describe. But I believe it might be what the OP is looking for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/08 14:14:24


His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary. 
   
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I've always thought of the Aspect Shrines as a unifying part of eldar culture across Craftworlds.

They're universal parts of the path that keep eldar together as a people rather than refugee populations that could have splintered off in a dozen different directions.

Feeds into inter-service rivalries rather than intra-service rivalries as well. You really don't want your warrior cults to start sprouting heresies and schisms. That gets ugly.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




The Shrines and the Path of the Eldar are a unifying force so that they all have common myths about Khaine and the Aspects, but at the same time there is still variation in how each Craftworld implements the Path system.

Saim-hann is described as having one of the loosest implementations (contrasted with Alaitoc which is one of the strictest) and the Eldar there still identify more strongly with their clan, with clan loyalty coming first, with the one exception being when they are on the Path of the Warrior.

On Biel-tan the Path of the Warrior is the first Path an Eldar there walks once they reach maturity.

The problem is specific Craftworld background has been very sparse and scattered as GW has dwelt endlessly on the Imperium and ever more newly invented Space Marine Chapters while even the big Eldar Craftworlds have languished in a void of little specific background written for them. The Iyanden supplement was one small attempt in that direction but it seems GW has given up on releasing more supplements for each Craftworld.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/08 15:38:34


 
   
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Fayetteville

Iracundus wrote:
The Shrines and the Path of the Eldar are a unifying force so that they all have common myths about Khaine and the Aspects, but at the same time there is still variation in how each Craftworld implements the Path system.


Some of this conformity comes from the Phoenix Lords making "accreditation" checks of the various shrines around the craftworlds.


On Biel-tan the Path of the Warrior is the first Path an Eldar there walks once they reach maturity.


This would mean all of their guardians, if they even field any, should be better than the basic guardian stat line. In 3rd edition, the craftworld eldar book had rules for Biel-tan to field aspect squads as troops. I think guardians moved to heavy support.

.
The Iyanden supplement was one small attempt in that direction but it seems GW has given up on releasing more supplements for each Craftworld.


Forgot about that. I think that's probably a good reference for the OP to check out as a template for his Biel-tan effort.

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Dakka Veteran




Arschbombe wrote: (...) because there's not a lot of room between the basic guardian "conscript" and the Dire Avenger professional.


I'm not just writing codecies. I've also made new rules based on D10, so now there's much more room for granularity.


Nerak wrote:As others have mentioned the path of the eldar series shines light on this. In particular the path of the warrior. (...) This need might be because of particular fighting styles that’s dominant throughout the craftworld. As I said this phenomena is very difficult to describe. But I believe it might be what the OP is looking for.


Well seems I must read that book, if I really want that deeper understanding of Shrines and Aspects.


Arschbombe wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
The Shrines and the Path of the Eldar are a unifying force so that they all have common myths about Khaine and the Aspects, but at the same time there is still variation in how each Craftworld implements the Path system.


Some of this conformity comes from the Phoenix Lords making "accreditation" checks of the various shrines around the craftworlds.


On Biel-tan the Path of the Warrior is the first Path an Eldar there walks once they reach maturity.


This would mean all of their guardians, if they even field any, should be better than the basic guardian stat line. In 3rd edition, the craftworld eldar book had rules for Biel-tan to field aspect squads as troops. I think guardians moved to heavy support.

.
The Iyanden supplement was one small attempt in that direction but it seems GW has given up on releasing more supplements for each Craftworld.


Forgot about that. I think that's probably a good reference for the OP to check out as a template for his Biel-tan effort.


The Iyanden supplement, was that for 6. edition?





Andy Chambers wrote:
To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
   
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Hacking Shang Jí





Fayetteville

Chaospling wrote:


I'm not just writing codecies. I've also made new rules based on D10, so now there's much more room for granularity.


That should help. Current 40k suffers under the ancient D6-based framework.


The Iyanden supplement, was that for 6. edition?


Yes. It coincided with the release of the Wraithknight and plastic Wraithguard.

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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





They key thing to keep in mind, is that everything the eldar do is based on various philosophical concepts and myths, not rigid dot point lists of rules.

The path of the warrior is a philosophy. The aspect of the scorpion is a philosophy. They are based on the myth of Khaine and his skills in warfare, which are all told in mythic cycles and themselves interpreted by the Phoenix lords into fighting styles.

Which were then reinterpreted by their students and their students' students down the line.

Debate and differing perceptions are central to philosophical discourse.

So imo it would be better if you saw each shrine as a proponent of specific philosophical aspects, than as implementing specific military rules.

Asurmen is Socrates and the other lords are his Platos. Karandras is an Aristotle to Arha's Plato.

All the other exarchs are descended from these schools of thought, but they are all coloured by their craftworld origins, personal experiences and the methods they were taught.

Now if GW gave the eldar a 10th of the time they give marines, you would see these distinctions appear in miniatures and rules.

The dark reaper is Khaine as the Destroyer but destruction itself can take many forms. Maugan doesn't even use the weapon chosen by the reapers to deliver destruction, but that doesn't make them more or less destroyers.

You can see the microcosm of this in the exarch weapons - the shuriken cannon is destruction as a storm of unrelenting fire, while the missile launcher is destruction in single might blows and the tempest is uncaring destruction from affair, aloof from those who it is visited upon.

The way the students of these exarchs fight will be different as well, but GW hasn't bothered to create any rules to reflect that.

Remember that the aspect is an all encompassing philosophy - reapers still know how to punch people despite being range focused. Their melee attacks would also reflect the concept of destruction, some using single deadly concentrated blows, others beating the enemy down in a whithering burst of strikes and so on.

Similarly, a banshee's shooting would not be trained the same as a scorpion's shooting, despite them using the same gun.

And then the culture of their craftworld will affect what philosophical focus each shrine is more likely to adhere to - you might see more tempest launchers in Alaitoc reaper shrines as the idea of striking from a distance unknown appeals to their secretive nature.



   
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Lots of great posts in this thread, folks. I love a good eldar thread.

Chaospling wrote:Well thanks guys. Didn't know about the Shrines, so that's great, thanks.

The thing is that I'm writing a Biel-Tan codex, so I was hoping to make the Aspect Warriors Biel-Tan special, not Shrine special. One idea was indeed to add Aspect upgrades to Warlocks, representing the Biel-Tan Craftworld devotion to the Aspects at every possible level... Maybe even something for the Guardians...?

As others have pointed out, what makes your aspect squads unique probably has more to do with the specific shrine rather than the craftworld. So for instance, there's probably nothing unique to Biel-Tan aspect warriors that they all have in common that would need a special rule, but the difference between those swamp and desert scorpions probably would.

If we were to go back to making warlocks into sergeants for squads, I could see 'locks gaining some of their squads' mobility gear/training. So winged hawk'locks. Sneaky scorp'locks, etc. Spider'locks might be a bit too dangerous to warrant though; it's risky enough jumping into the warp even when you're not on the path of the seer. The tricky thing here is that some of the aspect gear/training is supposed to be tied to the alien hyperfocus they have on their shrine's philosophy. I'm not sure if it would be considered safe/proper for someone on the path of the seer to re-enter their warrior headspace that thoroughly; I figured warlock status was already the product of a seer taking a jaunt back onto the warrior path for a bit.

Voss wrote:I've always thought of the Aspect Shrines as a unifying part of eldar culture across Craftworlds.

They're universal parts of the path that keep eldar together as a people rather than refugee populations that could have splintered off in a dozen different directions.

Feeds into inter-service rivalries rather than intra-service rivalries as well. You really don't want your warrior cults to start sprouting heresies and schisms. That gets ugly.

Yes, but also no. Cultural drift does happen, and sometimes that translates into new, minor aspect shrines being founded. But the eldar on the whole seem to have a superhuman attachment to their cultural myths (possibly a warp phenomenon?) that seems to help them maintain common ground. Doubly so for craftworlds who share the path system as a defining part of their cultures.

Arschbombe wrote:

On Biel-tan the Path of the Warrior is the first Path an Eldar there walks once they reach maturity.


This would mean all of their guardians, if they even field any, should be better than the basic guardian stat line. In 3rd edition, the craftworld eldar book had rules for Biel-tan to field aspect squads as troops. I think guardians moved to heavy support.

Based on Path of the Warrior I think the idea is that former aspect warriors have their memories/mindsets from their time as aspects locked away so tightly that they don't really call upon that training much when they become guardians. So a Biel-Tan guardian might have a more advanced war mask (the mental construct; not the wargear) than someone who never served as an aspect warrior, but he's probably not full-on accessing his memories as a striking scorpion to pull off ninja maneuvers.

Guardians moving to the HS slot while aspects took up troop slots was more to change up the ratios of what units were in your army rather than an indication that Biel-Tan guardians were more powerful.

.
The Iyanden supplement was one small attempt in that direction but it seems GW has given up on releasing more supplements for each Craftworld.

Thank goodness, tbh. I'd love more lore, but I don't want to have to buy a bunch of splats like marine players do.


What do you do with eldar civilians who were previously on a warrior path? Does a former Dire Avenger put his war mask back on? He'd have to go to a shrine for the ritual. Or do guardians just not do any of that?

The Path of... series sort of hints at how this works. My understanding/headcanon is that there are different levels of war mask. There's an extremely bare bones version that everyone gets as part of their mandatory guardian training. Guardian training is (iirc) a mandatory part of growing up in eldar society, so presumably all eldar have access to this. Then you have a proper (generic) war mask that anyone who walks the warrior path obtains. Based on some lines from Thirianna, it seems like this version is better/sturdier than the basic guardian version. And then you have warmask+ that is your aspect-specific. So a former-warrior guardian might access the full non-guardian war mask, but he might not allow himself to fall all the way into his aspect-specific training when he does so. I don't imagine you have former scorpions crouch-walking through terrain while former banshees in their squad sprint forward screaming, for instance.

But that's just my take. Maybe former aspects do access all their former warrior memories. That would just seem slightly odd to me given that an in-shape space elf with full memories of his fire dragon training could presumably just become a full-fledged fire dragon while the craftworld is threatened.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Leader of the Sept







No, because they are no longer on the path of the warrior. It may be a psychological distinction, but it’s how the civilisation functions. I think the guardian stat line represents an averaging of eldar who have never held a weapon before, other than whatever mandatory training they need to do, and the hoary old hands who have cycled their way potentially through several different aspects in their time. The fact that Guardians were always better than human-normal guard is partly down to that smattering of experienced ex aspect warriors. They may not be as boned as they were when they were actively practicing the aspect, but they will not have forgotten everything. I also thought that part of the path system was to bring experiences from other paths to the individuals practice of the path they were currently on. Hence why the main -Path character is insufferably shallow in their youthfulness

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Fayetteville

Wyldhunt wrote:
As others have pointed out, what makes your aspect squads unique probably has more to do with the specific shrine rather than the craftworld. So for instance, there's probably nothing unique to Biel-Tan aspect warriors that they all have in common that would need a special rule, but the difference between those swamp and desert scorpions probably would.


Yeah, I was thinking, in terms of the rules we have now, how to differentiate shrines of aspects and really it comes down to exarch gear and powers. So for example you could field three squads of Banshees like this:

Shrine of Deadly Grace - Exarch with Mirror Swords and Graceful Avoidance
Shrine of Whistling Death - Exarch with Triskele and Nerve-shredding Shriek
Shrine of the Spearing Blade - Exarch with Executioner and Piercing Strikes

Perhaps within Crusade there are more ways to make each shrine special.

Wyldhunt wrote:
If we were to go back to making warlocks into sergeants for squads, I could see 'locks gaining some of their squads' mobility gear/training. So winged hawk'locks. Sneaky scorp'locks, etc. Spider'locks might be a bit too dangerous to warrant though; it's risky enough jumping into the warp even when you're not on the path of the seer. The tricky thing here is that some of the aspect gear/training is supposed to be tied to the alien hyperfocus they have on their shrine's philosophy. I'm not sure if it would be considered safe/proper for someone on the path of the seer to re-enter their warrior headspace that thoroughly; I figured warlock status was already the product of a seer taking a jaunt back onto the warrior path for a bit.


What I really wanted back in the day was a way to embed a warlock in a banshee squad and not have him slow them down. But then it morphed into this desire for D&D character creation, which, of course, is far beyond the scope of 40k. Anyway, as part of this discussion I have been revisiting the fluff in the 2nd ed codex when most of this was originally codified/established. In looking at the issue of former warriors called up as guardians it says this:

Guardian squads are led by former Aspect Warriors, those who have trodden the Warrior Path but since left it. Their experience never deserts them, although without their Aspect costumes they cannot revive old skills.


Wyldhunt wrote:
Based on Path of the Warrior I think the idea is that former aspect warriors have their memories/mindsets from their time as aspects locked away so tightly that they don't really call upon that training much when they become guardians. So a Biel-Tan guardian might have a more advanced war mask (the mental construct; not the wargear) than someone who never served as an aspect warrior, but he's probably not full-on accessing his memories as a striking scorpion to pull off ninja maneuvers.


The above citation says they retain the experience, but their specific skills are tied to the gear, which also kind of handily ties in with Autarchs getting the cool toys and associated abilities.


Guardians moving to the HS slot while aspects took up troop slots was more to change up the ratios of what units were in your army rather than an indication that Biel-Tan guardians were more powerful.


Oh, I wasn't suggesting that was the reason. I was wrong anyway. Biel-tan Guardians went to Elite. It's the Iyanden that moved Guardians to Heavy Support.


Thank goodness, tbh. I'd love more lore, but I don't want to have to buy a bunch of splats like marine players do.


I wouldn't mind if the fluff and rules expression of that fluff are good. But they'll never make one for Iybraesil so we're safe in any case.



The Path of... series sort of hints at how this works. My understanding/headcanon is that there are different levels of war mask. There's an extremely bare bones version that everyone gets as part of their mandatory guardian training. Guardian training is (iirc) a mandatory part of growing up in eldar society, so presumably all eldar have access to this. Then you have a proper (generic) war mask that anyone who walks the warrior path obtains. Based on some lines from Thirianna, it seems like this version is better/sturdier than the basic guardian version. And then you have warmask+ that is your aspect-specific. So a former-warrior guardian might access the full non-guardian war mask, but he might not allow himself to fall all the way into his aspect-specific training when he does so. I don't imagine you have former scorpions crouch-walking through terrain while former banshees in their squad sprint forward screaming, for instance.

But that's just my take. Maybe former aspects do access all their former warrior memories. That would just seem slightly odd to me given that an in-shape space elf with full memories of his fire dragon training could presumably just become a full-fledged fire dragon while the craftworld is threatened.


I think it just comes down to the Path. If you're not on that path, you're not on that path and you don't/can't revert to that path just because war is coming. Though I like the idea that a craftworld will kind of just create the force it needs when the seers determine war is coming and more individuals just feel drawn to the warrior path for reasons they can't explain. Anyway, wasn't there something about someone trodding a specific path multiple times in Path of the Warrior?


Flinty wrote:No, because they are no longer on the path of the warrior. It may be a psychological distinction, but it’s how the civilisation functions. I think the guardian stat line represents an averaging of eldar who have never held a weapon before, other than whatever mandatory training they need to do, and the hoary old hands who have cycled their way potentially through several different aspects in their time. The fact that Guardians were always better than human-normal guard is partly down to that smattering of experienced ex aspect warriors. They may not be as boned as they were when they were actively practicing the aspect, but they will not have forgotten everything. I also thought that part of the path system was to bring experiences from other paths to the individuals practice of the path they were currently on. Hence why the main -Path character is insufferably shallow in their youthfulness


That's a fair assessment, but the old fluff says former aspects serve as (unidentified) squad leaders.

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 Arschbombe wrote:

Yeah, I was thinking, in terms of the rules we have now, how to differentiate shrines of aspects and really it comes down to exarch gear and powers. So for example you could field three squads of Banshees like this:

Shrine of Deadly Grace - Exarch with Mirror Swords and Graceful Avoidance
Shrine of Whistling Death - Exarch with Triskele and Nerve-shredding Shriek
Shrine of the Spearing Blade - Exarch with Executioner and Piercing Strikes

Yeah, that's pretty much how I express shrine-specific flavor at the moment. I just read really heavily into whatever power/gear combos/unit size/tactics I have in mind during list creation and use that to come up with a little backstory for them. It's not a bad amount of customization, really, though I kind of wish the exarch buffing powers were separate from the squad buffing powers.

In looking at the issue of former warriors called up as guardians it says this:

Guardian squads are led by former Aspect Warriors, those who have trodden the Warrior Path but since left it. Their experience never deserts them, although without their Aspect costumes they cannot revive old skills.

Nice! Thanks. Adding it to my eldar knowledge.


I wouldn't mind if the fluff and rules expression of that fluff are good. But they'll never make one for Iybraesil so we're safe in any case.

Hi, fellow Iybraesil player! Seems like there are more and more of us these days.



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Hacking Shang Jí





Fayetteville

Wyldhunt wrote:

Hi, fellow Iybraesil player! Seems like there are more and more of us these days.


I think Iybraesil might be the most popular of the minor craftworlds.

OT question. What craftworld traits do you like to use? Children of Morai-heg seems the obvious fluff choice, but what do you like for the second choice?

The Imperial Navy, A Galatic Force for Good. 
   
Made in us
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 Arschbombe wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:

Hi, fellow Iybraesil player! Seems like there are more and more of us these days.


I think Iybraesil might be the most popular of the minor craftworlds.

OT question. What craftworld traits do you like to use? Children of Morai-heg seems the obvious fluff choice, but what do you like for the second choice?

At first, I was running Hunters of Ancient Relics both because I liked it in Psychic Awakening as a way to help out our banshees and because it seemed appropriate given Iybraesil's knack for plundering Crone Worlds. Recently though, I've kind of grown sick with all the bookkeeping of actions and secondaries, so I've been swapping out the second trait based on whichever units I happen to be fielding that day. Been leaning towards Diviners of Fate and Mobile Fighters, but none of the other traits really scream Iybraesil to me. :(

...No scream pun intended.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Hacking Shang Jí





Fayetteville

Wyldhunt wrote:

At first, I was running Hunters of Ancient Relics both because I liked it in Psychic Awakening as a way to help out our banshees and because it seemed appropriate given Iybraesil's knack for plundering Crone Worlds. Recently though, I've kind of grown sick with all the bookkeeping of actions and secondaries, so I've been swapping out the second trait based on whichever units I happen to be fielding that day.
Been leaning towards Diviners of Fate and Mobile Fighters, but none of the other traits really scream Iybraesil to me. :(


Headstrong, Savage Blades, and Vengeful would all serve to boost Banshees. That feels Iybraesil to me.

The Imperial Navy, A Galatic Force for Good. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Most fluffy without any consideration of actual game effectiveness? Children of Morai-Heg and Hunters of Ancient Relics.

We know from what little snippets we have of Iybraesil that they identify strongly with the myth of Morai-Heg and her hand getting cut off for the sake of wisdom, to the point of the Craftworld symbol, Wisdom from Pain, being a reference to it. They are also explicitly stated as being focused on recovering the technology and artifacts from the Crone Worlds. Both of these map precisely onto those 2 Craftworld traits.

The list from 2019 from the previous trait list that I made for each minor Craftworld:

Altansar:

Grim
Warding Runes

Fairly self explanatory for having survived their ordeal in the Eye of Terror

Il-Kaithe:

Children of Khaine
Vengeful Blades

The second matches Il-Kaithe's hatred of Chaos. The first attribute I thought more fitting their increasing focus on bloodshed. I suppose one could argue the reference to their Bonesingers' skills could mean something like Expert Crafters or Student of Vaul or Superior Shurikens could apply.

Iybraesil:

Children of Morai-Heg
Hunters of Ancient Relics

The first attribute makes direct reference to Iybraesil's symbol so an obvious choice. The second is also explicitly describing Iybraesil's focus on recovering relics.

Lugganath:

Savage Blades
Webway Warriors

First attribute could also be Headstrong or Mobile Fighters. I settled on Savage Blades to reflect how Lugganath is seen by other Craftworlds as little better than a den of Corsairs. Webway Warriors is an obvious given Lugganath's focus on the Webway over realspace.

Mymeara:

Masters of Concealment

Had trouble thinking of a second attribute as Mymeara doesn't have too much of a clear defining characteristic beyond having concealed their Craftworld in a nebula.

Yme-Loc:

Expert Crafters
Students of Vaul

As the Craftworld most explicitly associated with Vaul, those two crafter attributes seemed most appropriate IMO. Yme-Loc's background constantly mentions bigger things like vehicles and Titans so I though Students of Vaul over something small scale like Superior Shurikens

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/15 23:43:21


 
   
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 Arschbombe wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:

At first, I was running Hunters of Ancient Relics both because I liked it in Psychic Awakening as a way to help out our banshees and because it seemed appropriate given Iybraesil's knack for plundering Crone Worlds. Recently though, I've kind of grown sick with all the bookkeeping of actions and secondaries, so I've been swapping out the second trait based on whichever units I happen to be fielding that day.
Been leaning towards Diviners of Fate and Mobile Fighters, but none of the other traits really scream Iybraesil to me. :(


Headstrong, Savage Blades, and Vengeful would all serve to boost Banshees. That feels Iybraesil to me.


Yeah. I'll probably start giving the melee buffs more playtime and see how they feel. Part of the weirdness is that I don't actually like fielding a ton of melee units in most of my eldar lists, so dedicating an entire craftworld trait to it feels like overkill. If I could field more than 3 squads of banshees, I'd feel fluffier and more comfortable leaning into the melee buffs.

Iracundus is spot on with those traits though. I'd be sticking with Hunters of Ancient Relics if I weren't in the middle of a childish rebellion against secondary objectives.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




 Arschbombe wrote:


What I really wanted back in the day was a way to embed a warlock in a banshee squad and not have him slow them down. But then it morphed into this desire for D&D character creation, which, of course, is far beyond the scope of 40k. Anyway, as part of this discussion I have been revisiting the fluff in the 2nd ed codex when most of this was originally codified/established. In looking at the issue of former warriors called up as guardians it says this:

Guardian squads are led by former Aspect Warriors, those who have trodden the Warrior Path but since left it. Their experience never deserts them, although without their Aspect costumes they cannot revive old skills.


...

The above citation says they retain the experience, but their specific skills are tied to the gear, which also kind of handily ties in with Autarchs getting the cool toys and associated abilities.





...

But that's just my take. Maybe former aspects do access all their former warrior memories. That would just seem slightly odd to me given that an in-shape space elf with full memories of his fire dragon training could presumably just become a full-fledged fire dragon while the craftworld is threatened.


I think it just comes down to the Path. If you're not on that path, you're not on that path and you don't/can't revert to that path just because war is coming. Though I like the idea that a craftworld will kind of just create the force it needs when the seers determine war is coming and more individuals just feel drawn to the warrior path for reasons they can't explain. Anyway, wasn't there something about someone trodding a specific path multiple times in Path of the Warrior?


Flinty wrote:No, because they are no longer on the path of the warrior. It may be a psychological distinction, but it’s how the civilisation functions. I think the guardian stat line represents an averaging of eldar who have never held a weapon before, other than whatever mandatory training they need to do, and the hoary old hands who have cycled their way potentially through several different aspects in their time. The fact that Guardians were always better than human-normal guard is partly down to that smattering of experienced ex aspect warriors. They may not be as boned as they were when they were actively practicing the aspect, but they will not have forgotten everything. I also thought that part of the path system was to bring experiences from other paths to the individuals practice of the path they were currently on. Hence why the main -Path character is insufferably shallow in their youthfulness


That's a fair assessment, but the old fluff says former aspects serve as (unidentified) squad leaders.


So... Ingame... A former Aspect Warrior... (Don't mind the current edition of Warhammer 40k) How could such a model be represented, when we look at:
  • The physical model - parts from several models/convertions

  • Stat line

  • Wargear

  • Special rules


  • How close to the actual Aspect Warrior should such a model be?


    From time to time questions pop up regarding how the Aeldari should be represented in a game, so maybe I should change this thread into a more general thread about the Aeldari...?

    Andy Chambers wrote:
    To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
       
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    @Chaospling:
    You're talking about representing former aspects as guardians, right? I feel like it's kind of just represented by the existence of special weapon options.

    * Former avengers just go back to shooting catapults. Not sure you can make guardian squads more similar to avengers without stepping on toes.
    * Former banshees, scorpions, and dragons become chainsword/powersword/fusion gun storm guardians.
    * Former dark reapers probably get to man the heavy weapon platforms.
    * Former crimson hunters/eagle warriors probably get to drive the skimmer vehicles.
    * Former hawks/spiders/spectres probably just get to be normal guardians because the training probably doesn't carry over very well without the ability to fly/teleport. If GW had brought back lasblaster guardians, those would be your former-hawks, I guess.

    Which, of the main aspects, just leaves shining spears. Who could probably pilot a vehicle, but I wouldn't mind giving windriders a 1 per 3 laser lance option. (Especially if they made them troops again and made all the special weapons on windriders 1 per 3.)

    If you really wanted to do something different to represent former aspects on the tabletop, I guess you could just give guardian squads a generic +1 Ld +1Attacks sergeant with the option to take the gun/sword of a normal aspect warrior (not an exarch). But I'm not sure I actually want that. We're already plenty powerful without me being able to mix reaper launchers into a guardian squad just because. You could let the squad take some sort of training/command related upgrade where they behave a bit more like aspect warriors, but that just hurts niche protection and probably makes the former-aspect sergeant feel too much like an exarch for my taste.


    ATTENTION
    . Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
     
       
    Made in us
    Hacking Shang Jí





    Fayetteville

    Chaospling wrote:

    So... Ingame... A former Aspect Warrior... (Don't mind the current edition of Warhammer 40k) How could such a model be represented, when we look at:
  • The physical model - parts from several models/convertions

  • Stat line

  • Wargear

  • Special rules


  • How close to the actual Aspect Warrior should such a model be?


    The current (old) fluff is pretty clear that there shouldn't really have anything special about a guardian squad leader particularly in terms of aspect warrior characteristics or equipment. I think Ld8 would make sense for a former aspect warrior, but I don't see any way to escape the rest of the 3+ 3+ S3 T3 statline.

    Maybe there's room for a custom craftworld that deviates from existing fluff. Maybe one that was an aggressive Biel-tan like world with lots of aspects, but they suffered some calamity like Iyanden and instead of wraith units, they have had to call up lots of guardians, very special guardians. Maybe more special than Ulthwe's black guardians.

    Modeling-wise there's room to kitbash a special guardian. Maybe use a Dire Avenger body for the butt cloth, a plumed storm guardian helmet or one of the bare face heads and the pointy arms normally associated with the platform gunners. Maybe even use the back banner from the DA exarch. You could go crazy using autarch parts, but that seems like overkill.


    From time to time questions pop up regarding how the Aeldari should be represented in a game, so maybe I should change this thread into a more general thread about the Aeldari...?


    Possibly. You seemed to have a specific goal in mind even as the discussion has wandered a bit. I think most of us Eldar fans feel there is just so much potential in the existing material that could be expanded on to great effect if only GW would take off their astartes blinders.


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     Wyldhunt wrote:
    @Chaospling:
    You're talking about representing former aspects as guardians, right? I feel like it's kind of just represented by the existence of special weapon options.

    * Former avengers just go back to shooting catapults. Not sure you can make guardian squads more similar to avengers without stepping on toes.
    * Former banshees, scorpions, and dragons become chainsword/powersword/fusion gun storm guardians.
    * Former dark reapers probably get to man the heavy weapon platforms.
    * Former crimson hunters/eagle warriors probably get to drive the skimmer vehicles.
    * Former hawks/spiders/spectres probably just get to be normal guardians because the training probably doesn't carry over very well without the ability to fly/teleport. If GW had brought back lasblaster guardians, those would be your former-hawks, I guess.

    Which, of the main aspects, just leaves shining spears. Who could probably pilot a vehicle, but I wouldn't mind giving windriders a 1 per 3 laser lance option. (Especially if they made them troops again and made all the special weapons on windriders 1 per 3.)

    If you really wanted to do something different to represent former aspects on the tabletop, I guess you could just give guardian squads a generic +1 Ld +1Attacks sergeant with the option to take the gun/sword of a normal aspect warrior (not an exarch). But I'm not sure I actually want that. We're already plenty powerful without me being able to mix reaper launchers into a guardian squad just because. You could let the squad take some sort of training/command related upgrade where they behave a bit more like aspect warriors, but that just hurts niche protection and probably makes the former-aspect sergeant feel too much like an exarch for my taste.


    No actually I meant leaders of Guardian squads besides Warlocks.

    I will try to show much more of the background in the rules, than there already is, but I will not make a distinction between former-Aspect Warrior-guardians and Guardians who have never trodden the Path of the Warrior.

    Are those former-Aspect Warriors a huge part of the background? I thought most Aspect Warriors stayed as such.

    Anyway, in this Biel-Tan codex I'm giving the option to make the Warlocks former Aspect Warriors and I've got those rules covered, so... Should a former Aspect warrior just be like a Warlock but without the Psychic powers?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Arschbombe wrote:
    Chaospling wrote:

    So... Ingame... A former Aspect Warrior... (Don't mind the current edition of Warhammer 40k) How could such a model be represented, when we look at:
  • The physical model - parts from several models/convertions

  • Stat line

  • Wargear

  • Special rules


  • How close to the actual Aspect Warrior should such a model be?


    The current (old) fluff is pretty clear that there shouldn't really have anything special about a guardian squad leader particularly in terms of aspect warrior characteristics or equipment. I think Ld8 would make sense for a former aspect warrior, but I don't see any way to escape the rest of the 3+ 3+ S3 T3 statline.

    Maybe there's room for a custom craftworld that deviates from existing fluff. Maybe one that was an aggressive Biel-tan like world with lots of aspects, but they suffered some calamity like Iyanden and instead of wraith units, they have had to call up lots of guardians, very special guardians. Maybe more special than Ulthwe's black guardians.

    Modeling-wise there's room to kitbash a special guardian. Maybe use a Dire Avenger body for the butt cloth, a plumed storm guardian helmet or one of the bare face heads and the pointy arms normally associated with the platform gunners. Maybe even use the back banner from the DA exarch. You could go crazy using autarch parts, but that seems like overkill.


    From time to time questions pop up regarding how the Aeldari should be represented in a game, so maybe I should change this thread into a more general thread about the Aeldari...?


    Possibly. You seemed to have a specific goal in mind even as the discussion has wandered a bit. I think most of us Eldar fans feel there is just so much potential in the existing material that could be expanded on to great effect if only GW would take off their astartes blinders.



    As I'm making the Biel-Tan codex for a rule set based on D10, I have room for granularity, though I'm also inclined to invent just a tiny bit myself, if I can't find enough background information.

    For example, som Guardians wield Fusion guns or chainswords, so if those Guardians weren't former Aspect Warriors, but just outfitted and/or inspired by the squad leader, then it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that the squad leader are even closer to the specific Aspect - the wargear as an example.

    Yes I have a specific goal in mind and you are all helping me to move along nicely, which is greatly appreciated.

    - And I don't mind when the discussion wanders off topic, I feel I can't get closer to the background than when observing the discussion of the Aeldari fans.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/27 23:00:19


    Andy Chambers wrote:
    To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose. 
       
     
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