Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Why is the industry leader able to maintain a major share of the war gaming audience? Well, because they have a major share of the war gaming audience, of course.

Blackjack Legacy highlights the challenges of trying to get and keep viewers if you do anything other than GW stuff. Funny enough, I probably wouldn’t have seen the linked video if YT hadn’t suggested it-likely due to GW being in the video title.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G0BLWlB3Jk0

I did it for five years and wasn’t much of a success. If it’s not GW focused you won’t get much traction from the algorithm.

I mean its the same for anything though. Fortnite or CoD videos get more traction than HoI4 or SupCom videos because the former are much more popular. You don't generally see people blaming Epic Games or Activision for not making it easy for their channel.
It certainly isn't GWs fault as that guy makes it out to be.

Eh yes it is I mainly watch youtube channels for terrain and trashbashing and most of that is none GW.

Even if you make GW content you'll have a hard time because there's a LOT of that out there.

You basically have to work hard at it; promote yourself a lot; understand the algorithms and have good quality product (videos) when you put them out.


You could certainly make a name for yourself outside of GW content, there's more than a few doing that. The key is finding a niche, finding a style, finding a fangroup.

A cursory glance at this channel suggests a lot more that it very much isn't GWs fault that it's not doing well.
It mostly seems to be YT streams, which seem to rarely crack the 1k views mark. People don't go to YT for streams, that's why Twitch exists.
Even then the content seems to be a bit haphazard with little consistency.
The most popular videos seem to be the ones ragging on GW (which isn't in the least bit surprising).
Personally, I wouldn't have made this my full-time job with the numbers as low as they are.

 Overread wrote:
Even if you make GW content you'll have a hard time because there's a LOT of that out there.

It can also have the opposite effect.

I know of one channel where the owner did a bunch of 40k-related things over a short timespan, and suddenly this mucked up how her channel was being presented, hiding her from people who would normally see it, and making it seem as though she was a 40k channel, when really it was just the frequency of the videos that caught the algorithm's notice.

She quickly changed tact and said that she'd do maybe one a month to avoid that happening again.

It's Google's gakky algorithms in general locking people into ever narrower search results. Youtube content creators just cop the other end of this; being involuntarily flagged as X content.
Ive been recently experiencing this myself as Ive been going through my old toys in the last month and Ive watched my searches narrow in real time. My search results identifying old 80s/90s action figures throw up many of the same results regardless of the keywords I search now.

There's a channel called miniature hobbyist, who for some inexplicable reason has either unlisted or deleted most of his GW related work (maybe due to cease and desist, but his manta is still on there) anyway, he switched over to pure D&D stuff around the start of the year and his views absolutely dropped off a cliff in comparison to what he was getting, and stated he'd never do GW stuff again...

Like has been said before, if you put in the work you can build a channel, but it will take you years and good consistency, especially as the market is a bit saturated now.

Don't do it to turn it into a job, if that happens great, if not then you can't be disappointed.

 Dropbear Victim wrote:
It's Google's gakky algorithms in general locking people into ever narrower search results. Youtube content creators just cop the other end of this; being involuntarily flagged as X content.
Ive been recently experiencing this myself as Ive been going through my old toys in the last month and Ive watched my searches narrow in real time. My search results identifying old 80s/90s action figures throw up many of the same results regardless of the keywords I search now.

Yep I too have felt that Googles search results narrow and narrow way more than they used too. I recall in the past getting way more variety with results and changing a few words would result in a big change. These days it feels like you get more and more of the same. Which I think is because its trying to show you the same results by narrowing things down, but also because only certain sites play the google game well. So those sites keep ranking high which makes google keep showing them.

You can directly see how it affects what kind of articles get posted; what kind of commentary gets created. Titles of things need to have "emotional words" so instead of "review of X" its "X is Rubbish - Read Why" or "X is the best thing since sliced bread - Or is it" etc.... All those "passionate" titles get the algorithms attention.



I do wonder if its actually leaving the market open for a new kind of search engine that perhaps "optimises" less than Google and goes back to an older style that presents a more broad swathe of results and that tailors itself less and less to a users search history.

 Gert wrote:
A cursory glance at this channel suggests a lot more that it very much isn't GWs fault that it's not doing well.
It mostly seems to be YT streams, which seem to rarely crack the 1k views mark. People don't go to YT for streams, that's why Twitch exists.
Even then the content seems to be a bit haphazard with little consistency.
The most popular videos seem to be the ones ragging on GW (which isn't in the least bit surprising).
Personally, I wouldn't have made this my full-time job with the numbers as low as they are.

I'd echo much of this. As someone who'd never heard of the channel, I went and checked it out. There are two immediate problems:

1. Almost every video is at least 90 minutes long, some more than 2 hours. That's a big time commitment to find out whether I want to subscribe and support the channel. There were hardly any shorter videos to at least get a flavour of what the expect on the channel. There was no easy entry point.

2. Lack of focus. What's the channel about? The problem is "wargaming" is a vast subject area. If you're trying to cover all of wargaming it's very likely most of your videos will only appeal to a small subset of your audience, depending on the game. That doesn't drive continued engagement in the same way a channel devoted to a single game would. Or a channel that deals with 3-4 games, even.

I'm sure the lack of GW material didn't help, but that's not a huge surprise given they are the market leader by a huge margin. Realistically, how many potential viewers are there once you remove GW players from the equation?

I guess it depends on what sort of numbers you’re expecting.

GW is monolithic. The biggest fish in its pond by a country mile. It has its own unique IP and background, it’s own paints etc. It has hundreds of thousands, if not potentially over a million, players/hobbyists in varying levels of engagement across the hobby’s different facets.

You can’t reasonably look at a GW focussed channel, and the numbers it pulls, and expect that for one focused on say, Privateer Press, Mantic etc, because whilst there is of course some cross over, they just don’t have the customer base GW does.

Now that does not mean if not GW you no make profit. Far from it. But you need to know your audience and what to expect.

Let’s consider Horus Heresy. Even for GW, it crossing the Rubicon Plasticaris is big. Gameplay aside, it’s a beloved setting with gorgeous models, which again even by GW’s standards, was out of financial reach of many. Now, less so. And the video making community has absolutely been on it. Painting videos. Build videos. Lore videos. Even gaming videos.

One could turn a half seeing eye to it, and notice those videos getting lots of hits, and from those boosts in subs, and think “oh I’ll just do that for Game X”…and completely miss the Why heresy specific stuff got a boost.

Likewise the new Contrast Paints. We know they’re a very specific thing. On top of that, we know some simply don’t behave as the first line up of Contrast Paints behaved. In the N&R thread, folk were asking for videos where we see each new Contrast demonstrated over different, quite specific, base coats.

I recommended Sword & Steele, a smaller painting channel. The video I shared was an all-in-one job. And now she’s doing Paint By Paint, devoting more time and depth to each.

For instance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zONznB_zdr8

I dare say she’s picked up a few subs, and definitely a bunch of views from these specific vids, because there are many folk wanting to see the content offered at this moment.

Again, the half seeing eye might only get so far as “painting videos are popular”, without understanding why these in particular are popular at this moment. You could try it with say, New PP paints - and not get the same results, again simply because GW has the biggest share of the market, and is also the most visible part of it.

You could make a decent fist of it. But you can’t simply look at the numbers GW videos get, and expect them for other wargames.

Slipspace wrote:
I'd echo much of this. As someone who'd never heard of the channel, I went and checked it out. There are two immediate problems:

1. Almost every video is at least 90 minutes long, some more than 2 hours. That's a big time commitment to find out whether I want to subscribe and support the channel. There were hardly any shorter videos to at least get a flavour of what the expect on the channel. There was no easy entry point.

2. Lack of focus. What's the channel about? The problem is "wargaming" is a vast subject area. If you're trying to cover all of wargaming it's very likely most of your videos will only appeal to a small subset of your audience, depending on the game. That doesn't drive continued engagement in the same way a channel devoted to a single game would. Or a channel that deals with 3-4 games, even.

This is the interesting bit for me because taking a look at channels that primarily focus on battle reports (MWG, StrikingScorpion82, GMG, among others) all have a huge number of videos of at least 90 mins, if not 2 hours. And that's where your second point comes in, focus. What is MiniWarGaming? It's a battle report channel that also has some reviews and chat videos with the hosts. They do loads of games, primarily GW, but they still branch out into things like Infinity, and Bolt Action, they even have their own game now.
Now obviously, MWG is the biggest fish in the Warhammer YT pond which is entirely fair considering they've been at it since 2007 and built the business from a local gaming club to an international network. That being said, the MWG videos (and most other channels) aren't focussing on the hosts, but rather on the game/book/miniatures which is the big difference I see with the channel from the OP. Now I might not sit through a whole battle report but at least things are happening in that type of video as the game itself is going on and the hosts (hopefully) are having a bit of banter and interaction. One guy sitting in front of a camera for an hour isn't something I'm going to sit and listen to or watch.

I'm sure the lack of GW material didn't help, but that's not a huge surprise given they are the market leader by a huge margin. Realistically, how many potential viewers are there once you remove GW players from the equation?

It's interesting that the channel doesn't really cover the most popular miniatures games on the market but its GWs fault the channel isn't doing well.

 Gert wrote:

It's interesting that the channel doesn't really cover the most popular miniatures games on the market but its GWs fault the channel isn't doing well.

Good point. I was surprised that a non-GW channel didn't really seem to be covering Malifaux, Infinity, X-Wing, SW Legion, Kings of War, or really much of any recognisable non-GW game. There were a few videos for some of these games, but it seemed really haphazard.

He has almost 20k subscribers, so there's obviously some sort of market there. I'm genuinely curious about what that market is, though.

Slight side tangent that my fav channels you hardly ever see the people in them (Pete the Wargamer etc), and I actively unfollow others on instagram that have passed on from just doing miniature related content to obviously copying influencer style reels etc (Quipster and all that really over the top UK warhammer 'influencer' crowd).

If I want to look at peoples faces, that is what my other instagram account is for, my miniatures account, I only want to see miniatures, and some hands working on them is allowed.

Slipspace wrote:
Good point. I was surprised that a non-GW channel didn't really seem to be covering Malifaux, Infinity, X-Wing, SW Legion, Kings of War, or really much of any recognisable non-GW game. There were a few videos for some of these games, but it seemed really haphazard.

Exactly my point. You can't choose to not cover GW, then also not cover the other big names in any real way, and then blame GW for your channel doing badly. If you skip out on the big fish, then the smaller fish, you can't complain if all you have is a couple of shrimp (This analogy makes perfect sense even though I have no knowledge of sealife).

He has almost 20k subscribers, so there's obviously some sort of market there. I'm genuinely curious about what that market is, though.

Not really. Subs don't translate well into actual numbers and it's the views that count. Even if you look at MWG with their 412k subs the average views are only about 25k.

But hey it's a tried and tested method that when things aren't going well for a channel, put out a video where you say GW is evil and watch those views skyrocket. Seriously, the video in the OP has 20k views and it's been up for two days.

Views are less important than retention.

A YouTuber might have an irritating voice, something which whilst rather petty, is a deal breaker for me. Yes it will show as a view, but the retention ratio will be low if I threw in the towel 30 seconds into say, a 5 or 15 minute video.

That I believe factors into the algorithm. If you get high views, but low retention? You won’t be pushed. If you get lower views, but higher retention? You may get pushed. Good scores on both is of course the dream combo.

Example? I enjoy coin pusher videos on YouTube. I follow two content creators, and regularly like and comment. However, there’s another one, made by a couple which I just cannot stand. It’s the same basic content (watch them rinse the coin pusher, passing out tips on how to get best results) but oh my word their voices drive me up the wall. The Lass is super super squeaky. And the bloke kind of constantly infantilises her efforts “good girl, yaayyy! You did it!”. It literally sounds like he’s cheering on a kid and not a grown ass woman. Both put me right off the content which, on other channels, I greatly enjoy.

Another consideration I notice when glancing through some of the long videos is how many are just him talking to the camera with limited use of images through the video. Which really kind of makes it more of a podcast than a video. At the very least make use of props, screenshots, photos etc... content alongside long lectures/talks.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Views are less important than retention.

A YouTuber might have an irritating voice, something which whilst rather petty, is a deal breaker for me. Yes it will show as a view, but the retention ratio will be low if I threw in the towel 30 seconds into say, a 5 or 15 minute video.

That I believe factors into the algorithm. If you get high views, but low retention? You won’t be pushed. If you get lower views, but higher retention? You may get pushed. Good scores on both is of course the dream combo.

Retention is an important factor of course but from just the pure numbers, the channel in the OP is nowhere near where I would want to be if I made it my main source of income. It doesn't really make a difference if 800 people are watching channel 1s 90 min streams all the way through when 2.5k people are watching channel 2s videos for 30 mins.

The guys livestream has just popped up, with the title "The One that ISN'T about Games Workshop" safe to say, it's all just views fishing then.

Some person just donated a £16 super chat... wtf...

I don’t understand the superchat donation comment. Does that mean someone gave the guys channel cash for what they were already doing?

Yeah. Donations are how people give money to streamers mid-stream, sort of like a tip, and usually, there is some sort of value attached like a shoutout from the streamer.

Thank you. So essentially someone flipped him some dosh.

I get superchat comments during games, or for asking questions or whatever...

It was just the guy talking, like he seemingly only does though... Just a bit weird, people can do what they want with their money though I suppose.

It's creative support. It's similar to how people will buy merch from their favourite band or support an artist on Patreon.

It's about realising that someone is creating or doing something with their life that you support and want more of; but that at the same time that person can only do so whilst they earn from that.

Or at the very least that earning from it helps them out.


Heck someone might give money through the stream even if they don't like it all that much because they like other content the creator makes and want to support them.

GW stuff tanks too, in my experience!

I focused on Firefight from announcement to release and saw a great spike in views and subs, just by focusing on one system and releasing weekly content. Some didn’t fare so well, but hey ho.

My other content is admittedly haphazard and swings from very poor views to ehhh OK not bad for a sub count of around 250… so there’s a lesson there for sure.

I think asking this on a GW-centric board will skew the answers a bit.

 Easy E wrote:
I think asking this on a GW-centric board will skew the answers a bit.

How so?

Because the presumptive answer will be along the lines of: “If it’s not GW, it’s crap!”

 Gert wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I think asking this on a GW-centric board will skew the answers a bit.

How so?

Many folks here are not looking for non-GW content, so don't really know how sustainable it is really.

That said, I think an approach that has a portion of GW and a portion of Non-GW is the best approach.