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Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Now that the codex is out, it is time for a new thread.

I am still having a read through, but many units feel dramatically improved upon their previous datasheets.

Flamers of Tzeentch stand out to me. Their base profile is good and there are so many ways to buff them. Between Infernal Flames (+1 to wound), Burning Warpfire (max shots vs 11+ model units), and the Herald of Tzeentch aura (re-roll wounds of 1), they will feature heavily in a lot of my lists.

What other units or combos is everyone excited about?
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced Inquisitorial Acolyte



Seattle, WA

Flamers are the first unit in 9th I've been excited to use overwatch with. I really doubt the staying power of the shoot-and-scoot style Tzeentch looks to support, but a squad of Pinks has around 25 wounds with splitting. That has to be worth something. How TF are screamers supposed to stay alive to do their job?

Nurgle has arguably more staying power (PB's notwithstanding) and volume of attacks but no high-strength units except the undivided datasheets. Beasts have a great stat line but cost so much I question their value. Slaanesh looks solid all around and Khorne...has never interested me so aside from how good cannons look, I'll let someone else be the judge. Soulgrinders look solid for the first time! The troop unit sizes drive me a little nuts though, not gonna lie. I bought a horde army and they... aren't that anymore.

I want my furies back. I'd accept legends begrudgingly.

edit: Even with his new cost, doesn't Be'lakor look to be an auto-include?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/03 04:37:24


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Just began to read through it, so no real judgements yet.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I'm not sure if Be'lakor is an auto-take for me, but that is largely because I play 1k point games. It's hard to justify spending 40% of your points on one model.

That said, something gimmicky that I have found that includes Be'lakor. You can get a total -4 to enemy attrition tests. Take Be'lakor, an Exalted GUO with Hideous Visage, and a Khorne Warlord with Aspect of Death. If the enemy unit is under half strength, then they would be at -5 for attrition, which means the entire unit auto-flees! Too bad Space Marines don't care about attrition modifiers.

Screamers look like they will be more useful picking off weakened elite / monster / vehicle units. They have significant mobility, but their bad WS and low attacks mean they aren't liable to do massive damage. But with with Warp Jaws they should do 6~8 wounds to most high-toughness targets.

Nurgle is actually the one I'm least excited about. Plague drones feel like they've had a downgrade in terms of offensive output. The AP is nice, but they have considerably less D2. That said, they are certainly more durable.
The change to how Nurglings fill troop slots is disappointing. I can still see myself bringing a unit or two for early game board control, but given the points and the lack of slot filling, I think I would prefer for more plaguebearers.
For Beasts of Nurgle, I think there is a few ways to play them. Their biggest advantage is that they regenerate at the end of each phase. They could reasonably be back field objective holders. So units of 1 or 2 to hold onto those objectives. Alternatively, they could be quite useful as T3 deep strikers. Once the enemy has depleted forces, you can charge them into units that you don't want shooting any more. Ideally charging into units that won't kill them in close combat.

For Khorne, there look to be some solid combos. I'm considering an Exalted Bloodthirster with Indomitable Onslaught (8 wound cap/phase), and the Blood-drinker Talisman (kill a model, on a 5+ gain wound back). Not sure on the WL trait though (quite a few good options there IMO)
The Herald units have all had solid buffs. Most doing 3 damage with more attacks and strength.
Basically everything looks decent in combat to me. I think that quite a few units will want to leverage the Manifestation rules to avoid being shot at. Line your back lines with Skull Cannon's (they are amazing IMO), have a mix of Flesh Hounds and Crushers to push forwards. Possibly give your warlord Aspect of Death to help with the Manifestation ranges (Aspect of Death + Daemonic Terror + Primeval Terror = -3 leadership)
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Screamers are weird, a melee unit which only has a 6+ sv in melee, wtf ? They better kill what they charge, if not they are dead.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Something interesting with Horrors and splitting now. Basically you split after all of the attacks have been resolved. This means that a savvy opponent with sufficient attacks could destroy a Pink Horror unit before they are allowed to split.

While there aren't too many units likely to achieve this for shooting, close combat is a different issue. With their 6+ save, you would need to inflict 12 wounds to their T3 bodies. Any unit with modest melee capabilities should be able to do this, which will make screening your Pink Horrors important.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Flamers only have 12" range. They are big damage dealers, but die very fast in melee. Make sure there is no counter charge after you shoot.

Pinks are our only obsec choice, they are very expensive for a T3 W1 model, and die very fast in melee. Yes, they split, but only if at least one survives, and only on 4+.
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




Getting the codex in a week or so when I have money. Looking forward to reading the Slaanesh rules. From what little I've heard, the new Slaanesh is an improvement over the old Slaanesh.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

How would mono nurgle do? Is it thoughe nough to survive a lot? Or would they just get shot off?

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

It looks like my mono- Khorne force force only has access to two sources of Locus.
•Skarbrand
•Skull Alter
Of wich I own....neither. :(

I didn't overlook any did i?
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




ccs wrote:
It looks like my mono- Khorne force force only has access to two sources of Locus.
•Skarbrand
•Skull Alter
Of wich I own....neither. :(

I didn't overlook any did i?


Each god has access to 2 sources for Warp Locus. The named Greater Deamons along with terrain pieces for Khorne and Nurgle, Infernal Enrapturess for Slaanesh, and a warlord trait for Tzeentch that comes with an added bonus of 12" aura to re-roll morale. Of the two terrain pieces only Nurgle's can be setup outside of Deployment. Warp Locus doesn't help if you're bringing in units inside your own Deployment because you can setup outside of 3" of enemy units. (I actually used this with a group of Flamers on some Rubrics who were 4" outside my Deployment zone in my 1st game)


Has anyone seen any way to add Warpstorm Points? There's ways to retain but I haven't seen ways to add.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

The cloud of flies rule for plaguebearers give -1 to hit if they are 20 models. But they cap out at 10 models. Is there something I am missing?

   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Its a battlescribe issue, you cant have a 20 model unit of plaguebearers.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

I figured it was battlescribe, but then asupects tactics said the same. I guess I know where they get their information from. ^_^

   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

BomBomHotdog wrote:

Has anyone seen any way to add Warpstorm Points? There's ways to retain but I haven't seen ways to add.


Epidemius tally of pestilence lets you add 1 WSP for every 7 enemy models killed by nurgle models.
   
Made in no
Huge Bone Giant





Bergen

 p5freak wrote:
BomBomHotdog wrote:

Has anyone seen any way to add Warpstorm Points? There's ways to retain but I haven't seen ways to add.


Epidemius tally of pestilence lets you add 1 WSP for every 7 enemy models killed by nurgle models.


I also thing the nurgle trees add one to the warp storm points if it kills a unit. Tricky to do.

I was looking for a pure nurgle list

Great unclean one

3 nurglings
3 nurglings
10 plaguebearers
10 plaguebearers
10 plaguebearers

1 beast of nurgle
1 beats of nurge
1 beast of nurge

5 plague drones
5 plague drones

1 soulgrinder
1 soulgrinder

1 Feculent Gnarlwood

However, I did not like how it came out. I doubt it is enough resulient to survive. The soulgrinders only have autocannons for ranged weapons, and that is bad. The plague dronones are the only offensive fast models. I am unsure if there are ebough trix to summon beasts of nurgle far ahead that they get of charges.

How would you build a pure nurfgle list?

   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





So I got a few games in with my pure Tzeentch army (1500 points). I basically used one of each of the Tzeentch units and I will give my impressions. Hope this is helpful

Warp Storm
So I am not really that impressed with the warp storm table. I mean -1 to hit is good, but it needs to be over 12" so it is more limited. I really only used the demonic whispers (I was playing grey knights) and the +1 to cast. If you are playing Tzeentch the +1 to cast warp storm is basally what you are going to spend points on every turn, (its 3 so not so bad). And it makes a big difference with the spell casting

Stratagems
I am unimpressed with the stratagems. None are great. The teleport a character can be helpful but is really situational and the cast an extra power is good, but you need to declare at the beginning so it loses a bit of its flexibility. The rest are not very useful. I found myself using my CP for really only interrupt, auto pass morale, and re-rolls.

Spells
The Tzeentch spells are good. Gate does mad damage, the bolt of change is really good, +1 t wound on flamers is broken (more on that later), the random +2 move, +1 S, or +1T is better than you think because you get to pick if you roll a 9 or better, which is easy with the Lord of Change, and you can put that power on any Tzeentch unit (T8 lord of change, T9 soul grinder). The one that turns off auras is a bit situational and was not necessary in the game I played, and the other (keep 2 WSP) is really not useful.

Units HQ

Lord of Change - he is as advertised. I gave him -1 to hit (Exalted) -1 to would (WL). I know the impossible robe is the hotness on the internet right now, but I actually used the upgraded rod of sorcery. The impossible robe felt like it would have been overkill on defense and really, he was rarely shot at by my opponents because they were afarid of the -1s and the 3++d. The relic rod however gave him a pretty impressive shooting attack, that killed a GK dreadknight (who was already damage by Gate). The d3 is what sells it to me. On the downside he is only BS3 for some reason, and he is not very good in close combat. I would maybe use him in a mix, but the Bloodthirstier is probably better.

Herald - Spell caster and buffed my pink horrors. He was ok, did what he does which is cast spells and buff sit re-roll 1's to wound and auto wound for pink horrors in command phase. Don't sleep on the staff of change shooting attack for only 5 points as well. If I was going to do a mixed detachment I would probably bring a more kill-y one from Khrone or Slannesh.

Daemon Prince - I took Tzeentch obviously, which gives him another spell/cast. With only 4 good powers the extra cast doesn't really do much but it let me spread out gate if necessary. I also think if you are going pure Tzeentch a DP is a must bring. He adds much needed melee strenght. I took him with the relic that is +1 damage and 6's to wound MW. He also took down an dreadknight in one round. d4 on the sword is just so tasty. In a mix I don't know if I would go Tzeentch with the DP, probably Khrone or Nurgle.

Units Troops

Pink Horrors - First I think 150 is probably to much for them by like 20. They are not as durable as you think even with the 3++d, and the split as they are only T3 so very susceptible to small arms mass shots. And then in combat they just die like cultists as you need to have a survivor to split, which you won't have against anything that is remotely decent in melee. Also their shooting for me is one shot not enough. If pinks had 3 shots (2 for blue and incandescent) they might be worth 150, but with only two shots each it is not enough for them to really be any kind of threat, and so they are kind of just blah. I mean have to take in pure tzeentch, but in mix, I would look elsewhere.

Units Elite

Exhalted Flamer - he is the only one I did not use. Points wise it was him or a herald and I went with herald. I can see an argument for him over the chariot as they are basically the same only he is not target-able but the chariot has some melee ability. Curious what other think.

Flamers - yea these guys are just straight broken. Whoever wrote the codex must have mixed up which unit was 30 points per model and which was 25 because there is no way these guys should be 25 and screamers 30. Even without the buffs these guys are straight fire. Always have a CP fo over watch and they are not being charge. They are a must take in every daemon list that is not pure Khrone, Slannesh, Nurgle. In fact if I was going to run pure competitive Tzeentch or mix I would take two, probably 3 of these units of 6. Enjoy these while you can because there is no way they don't get hit with a 5 point increase in the next chapter approved. And you know what? I would still field 3 even if they were 30 points per model. These are probably one of, if not the, best units in the book.

Units Fast

Screamers - so on the opposite end you have the screamers which is mind boggling why GW thinks these guys are worth 30 points per model. They are melee only with WS4 and 3 attacks. Yes they are fast, but they also die really easily in combat, which is the only think they do. They can do the slash attack for MW but how often is that going to matter. Also their neat trick of teleporting instead of advancing is really not very valuable. They can't charge after (counts as advance and no advance and charge), they are beasts so no actions, and they can't use the fly over MW. Really other than a few very niche reasons (engage on all fronts) I can't see when I would really ever use the teleport which is why they are 30 points. I will continue to use because pure Tzeentch and I like the model, but if I was building a competitive list I would take any unit over these guys, and in pure tzeentch I would just take more flamers.

Units Heavy

Chariot - In a pure tzeentch army it is pretty good. It buffs the flamers and has a pretty decent shooting attack and an ok melee attack. I don't worry as much about it being targeted as it has T6 with 3++d and 9 wounds, so hard to take down shooting. It is usually screened by the flamers it is buffing so it is harder to charge and can pick its target if it wants to charge as it has a pretty fast move. Overall it is good in a pure list, I would probably skip it in a mix list.

Soul grinder - wow so much better now. However, they are not a sit back and shoot unit, they are a melee unit. Their shooting is ok, but if you are not using the melee you are missing out one what makes them good. I obviously took tzeentch to keep my purity, and the 4++d in melee did not come up because it was killed by shooting, but again in a mix detachment I would take it as any of the other 3 as all are better. Nurgle for T9 is probably the best. I gave my T9 with the spell and it was money, so natural T9 would be great. Also watch out for massed fire that either wounds on 5+ or auto wounds on 6's to hit because without that big toughness doing work, he only has a 4++ and will take wounds to light fire that can by pass T.


Overall I like my tzeentch list. To fill it out to 2000 I am adding a Chaos Knight. However, if I really wanted to do competitive Tzeentch and had the $$, I would get Bel'kor. He would really help Tzeentch with allowing access to his psyker powers (you only need to bring him for that) and he would add a real hard hitting melee unit to the army.

Hope this was helpful and look forward to people's thoughts.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/04 23:18:33


 
   
Made in au
Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne






Thanks, xeen, for the thoughts re: mono Tzeentch, as well as their role in mixed lists.

I'm all aboard the mono-Khorne train, mainly because it's all I own. This is what I'm thinking, and I'm eager for thoughts:

Bloodthirster
Exaltation: Indomitable Onslaught
WLT: Brazen Hide
Relic: Blood-Drinker Talisman

Daemon Prince w/ Wings and Sword
Relic: A'Grath, King of Blades

10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters

5x Bloodcrushers

5x Flesh Hounds
5x Flesh Hounds
5x Flesh Hounds

Be'lakor
Psychic: Shrouded Step // Wreathed in Shades


The game plan is basically to have two unkillable biggies on the board working their way up the middle. Likely start the Bloodcrushers on the board to move up and tank in the centre. The Flesh Hounds either camp home objectives, or fast push side objectives. The Bloodletters get Warp-Locus deep-stuck in to kill stuff!

I'm hoping to try out the list on the weekend, but I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts before then!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/09/05 08:18:29


World Eaters: 650pts
Khorne Daemons: 3500pts
Chaos Knights: 2100pts
Agents of Chaos: 300pts
Sisters of Battle: 6500pts
Imperial Agents: 500pts
Gloomspite Gitz: 1300pts 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





You can’t take a daemon prince with belkor. Otherwise that looks pretty good.
   
Made in au
Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne






 xeen wrote:
You can’t take a daemon prince with belkor. Otherwise that looks pretty good.


Be'lakor would be in a Supreme Command detachment off by himself, so I think I'm good. Sorry, should have specified.

But in case I'm wrong, I'd be almost as happy with a Rendmaster and either an extra Bloodcrusher, or an extra Flesh Hound in two of the three squads.

World Eaters: 650pts
Khorne Daemons: 3500pts
Chaos Knights: 2100pts
Agents of Chaos: 300pts
Sisters of Battle: 6500pts
Imperial Agents: 500pts
Gloomspite Gitz: 1300pts 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 xeen wrote:
You can’t take a daemon prince with belkor. Otherwise that looks pretty good.


Yes you can. In another detachment.
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

I've had a decent read through, there's alot to like an a fair few annoyances to go with them. Some random thoughts :-)

I quite like the simple approach, powerful dataslates with not many special rules to wade through and combo together, if every codex was like this it would be a better game (and alot faster to play!) but I'm not sure of the competitive viability of this simple approach in a meta of powerhouses.

Love the Daemon saves, fluffy and powerful although the idea of Invincible Invulnerable saves is a bit stupid but that's the game we are in.

We can deepstrike again!!! and with decent tricks, love this.

Not a fan of the very bland re-roll 1s auras Greaters and heralds put out - why does every army have to have a captain and Lt now!

I dislike the lose of god abilities like Unstoppable ferocity/quicksilver etc... and mono faction bonuses like slaanesh advance and charge - the stat boosts look super good until you realise you don't have these abilities any more.
The bloodletter is a great case in point - you look at the stats and think ohhh an extra S & A but then realise they used to get them as a bonus for charging.

I really dislike the fix units of 10 troops and free banners/instruments. There are multiple little reasons - I have larger units than 10 and now I will have to remodel some, I like choice in army selection, fixed sizes and free upgrade takes that all away, it also makes it really hard to fill up the last few points in a list or jiggle stuff arond to free a few points up - just less user friendly.

Taking a single warlord trait in a book which offers you a choice of 25 different ones is bloody stupid!

Warpstorm table is fun and can be powerful if unreliable - I'm ok with that.

Units:

Belakor is amazing and an autotake to my mind - this is good but also annoying as I hate feeling silly for not including a unit, autotakes are very bad for the game.

Flamers are clearly underpointed, I fully expect a 5 or 10 point bump in the next round of points increases - if its 5 then they will still be taken en-mass which is very telling.

Greater daemons are all more survivable and generally more killy - the BT in particular looks great fun.

My Soulgrinders are badass finally, good at most things and not super expensive.

Skulltaker is genuinely a scary character.

Harp lady is just an all round toolbox.

added to those I'm liking fiends, flesh hounds, most troops, herald on screamer chariot and exalted flamer.

Nurgle look pretty poor to me unfortunatly - Slow, short ranged crap firepower, only ok in combat and nowhere near survivable enough to make up for those downsides - the plague drones look to be the best bet as they have decent movement but the rest just don't do enough.




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/05 08:27:39


30,000pts
12,000pts
2,000pts
4,000pts
4,000pts
2,000pts
4,000pts
2,000pts 
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





Daemon Princes don't appear to exclude each other anymore and as long as Be'lakor is in a Supreme Command detachment he doesn't prevent them from being in your army. So in theory, you could use the AoR for something like this, just an initial idea. Not sure it's particularly amazing, but might be fun for a casual game.

DP Tzeentch (Robe)
DP Khorne
DP Slaanesh

Plaguebearers
Nurglings
Daemonettes
Bloodletters

Exalted Flamer
Flamers (6)

Flesh Hounds (7)
Seekers (10)

Be'lakor (Supreme Command)

I think that satisfies all the requirements, the 2 Nurgle units allowing me a third from the others.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Irked Necron Immortal




 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
...as long as Be'lakor is in a Supreme Command detachment he doesn't prevent them from being in your army. So in theory, you could use the AoR for something like this, just an initial idea. Not sure it's particularly amazing, but might be fun for a casual game.


If you are running it as Disciples of Be'Lakor you cannot run that list. It doesn't matter what detachment Be'Lakor is in as your ARMY cannot contain any Deamon Princes. If you were running that list as just Undivided that list would be valid.

Be'Lakor himself doesn't have the restriction but the AoR does.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





BomBomHotdog wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
...as long as Be'lakor is in a Supreme Command detachment he doesn't prevent them from being in your army. So in theory, you could use the AoR for something like this, just an initial idea. Not sure it's particularly amazing, but might be fun for a casual game.


If you are running it as Disciples of Be'Lakor you cannot run that list. It doesn't matter what detachment Be'Lakor is in as your ARMY cannot contain any Deamon Princes. If you were running that list as just Undivided that list would be valid.

Be'Lakor himself doesn't have the restriction but the AoR does.


Ahh yes, oh well, I misread that, I guess there's no saving that AoR. It's just trash.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in fr
Guardsman with Flashlight



Paris, France

 TonyH122 wrote:

Be'lakor would be in a Supreme Command detachment off by himself, so I think I'm good. Sorry, should have specified.

But in case I'm wrong, I'd be almost as happy with a Rendmaster and either an extra Bloodcrusher, or an extra Flesh Hound in two of the three squads.

If Belakor is in a supreme command, he must be your warlord so no warlord trait on the BT
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





BomBomHotdog wrote:
ccs wrote:
It looks like my mono- Khorne force force only has access to two sources of Locus.
•Skarbrand
•Skull Alter
Of wich I own....neither. :(

I didn't overlook any did i?


Each god has access to 2 sources for Warp Locus. The named Greater Deamons along with terrain pieces for Khorne and Nurgle, Infernal Enrapturess for Slaanesh, and a warlord trait for Tzeentch that comes with an added bonus of 12" aura to re-roll morale. Of the two terrain pieces only Nurgle's can be setup outside of Deployment.
You can deep strike the Khorne one.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Hmm, I didn't notice that.
Guess it's a good thing I picked one up this evening.
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

Dogshit codex, possibly the worst all edition to be honest. There might be some way to finagle good lists out of it but it's a half-baked barebones beta version codex.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





The new daemonic saves are interesting, but is it just me, or are there very few units that have a 4++ demonic save in melee ? Most Daemon units literally only have a 5++ save in melee. And most daemon troops other than Plague bearers have only 1 wound each model. They are so fragile in melee ...

For a mostly melee centric army, they have very little staying power in an actual melee fight outside of the Greater Daemons. Everything from blood letters to even plague bearers will fold easily and die in combat.

They are actually reasonably ok against shooting, because many units have 4++ or even better against shooting. But in melee, they are going to literally evaporate if you so much as charge them with anything decent.
   
 
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