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Back when Scourges came as a dark eldar unit (3rd edition?) they had some kick ass art. They experimented with jump pack infantry that could take heavy weapons: Dark lances. GW where exploring new design space, not just making another jump infantry.

How did they play at the time? I see the mobilaty argument. But moving heavy weapons gives minus to hit? (Perhaps they are exempt in 3rd edition beeing jump infantry.)

Are there any examples of jump infantry heavy weapons that work in current 40k? Thau have their suits, eldar have they FW shadow specters. But do any of them work as it says on the tin?

How do Scourges do these days? Poor man's swooping hawks?

IIRC scourges couldn't move and fire, at least when armed with Datk Lances, as per the Heavy weapon rules. Splinter Cannons may have been Assault though? I know my brother didn't play them because of this disadvantage.

Splinter Cannons were 24" S4 AP5 Assault 4 for a very hefty 20 points on a T3 5+ save body.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Splinter Cannons were 24" S4 AP5 Assault 4 for a very hefty 20 points on a T3 5+ save body.

^Ah yes, that would be a tough price.

Yeah the game was not balanced a lot back then.

Scourge were notoriously terrible under the 3E book for a multitude of reasons.
1. Cannot move and shoot, making the unique selling point a bit pointless.
2. T3/5+.
3. Extremely expensive.
4. Direct competition with the Ravager for extremely limited HS slots.

They didn't function at all because it was a classic case of GW forgetting their own rules when making a unit. They couldn't love and shoot, which meant that they had to be exposed for a turn before they could shoot. And well, with typical space elf bodies, that just meant being shot off the table before they ever got to shoot.

That, and it was a pain to build them.

 Dolnikan wrote:
They couldn't love and shoot, which meant that they had to be exposed for a turn before they could shoot.

That's a novel issue for a Dark Eldar unit, it must be said.

Each individual part of the old scourge unit makes some sense when taken out of context - 16 points for a jump troop variant of an 8 point model is steep but not excessive for 3e pricing, particularly for a unit outside of the Fast Attack slot. Similarly prices for special and heavy weapons were always hiked up on units that could take 4.

But the unit as a whole was schizophrenic and seemed to combine the least favourable price hikes with the least favourable wargear availability. The weaponry made them distinct from the Hellions but they were a Jump Pack unit trying to do the job of a Jetpack unit.

Scourges have always been a strange unit.

They generally have excellent movement but almost no armour. So you'd expect them to either be a glass-cannon melee unit or else to carry powerful but short-range weapons like meltas.

Instead, they have no melee ability to speak of and almost all their ranged weapons are Heavy - meaning they want to avoid moving at all. What's more, their weapons had ranges of 24-36", so you rarely even needed to move to get within range.

You can use them as a deep-striking blaster unit, yet they always pay so much for their largely-useless movement that they're very expensive for what is almost certainly a suicide unit.

The sad thing is, GW already figured out how to do Scourges right - Corsair Balestrike Bands. These units were very similar to Scourges (albeit with more options - including the ability to take as many Heavy Weapons as you wanted, rather than being limited to 4 per squad). However, the crucial difference was that they had Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs.

This meant that they could not only move and shoot, they could also withdraw behind terrain afterwards, to counteract their extremely fragile defensive stats.

These guys really should have set the benchmark for Scourges in future editions, but instead they were entirely forgotten and GW continued making Scourges with fast movement and weapons that wanted them to remain stationary.

Others have pretty much nailed it. I got into dark eldar in 5th edition when they were still using the 3rd edition codex. Scourges didn't really work at all until the 5th edition codex came out and gave them anti-tank Assault weapons. And even then, their heavy weapons were a bad idea because you couldn't shoot them after moving/deepstriking.

Even now, I'm reluctant to give scourges dark lances because it means I'll only land half of my (Expensive) shots. Although the Damage stat of lances versus blasters makes the option *slightly* more tempting.

Vipoid is right; scourges really should have had a jump-shoot-jump mechanic the whole time. That's probably what you'd *expect* a heavy weapon guy with wings to do.

I get the impression that GW pictures scourges flying away from approaching enemies and setting up to fire again from a new vantage point, but the game is too short for that. That sort of thing works better in Dawn of War. But hey, scourges are in a decent place right now, so there's that.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

I get the impression that GW pictures scourges flying away from approaching enemies and setting up to fire again from a new vantage point, but the game is too short for that. That sort of thing works better in Dawn of War. But hey, scourges are in a decent place right now, so there's that.

Flying away from approaching enemies could work. We'd just need a rule similar to Age of Sigmar's re-deploy - either built into the Scourges or into the system overall.

A.T. wrote:
But the unit as a whole was schizophrenic and seemed to combine the least favourable price hikes with the least favourable wargear availability. The weaponry made them distinct from the Hellions but they were a Jump Pack unit trying to do the job of a Jetpack unit.

I feel it's important to point out that at the point when Scourges were released, Jet Pack wasn't a unit type. Jet packs weren't introduced until Tau were introduced.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I feel it's important to point out that at the point when Scourges were released, Jet Pack wasn't a unit type. Jet packs weren't introduced until Tau were introduced.

Fair enough, but they were still jump pack units in the 3.5 update that released two years after the Tau.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I get the impression that GW pictures scourges flying away from approaching enemies and setting up to fire again from a new vantage point, but the game is too short for that. That sort of thing works better in Dawn of War. But hey, scourges are in a decent place right now, so there's that.

All sorts of shooting units back then were far slower. Or restrained by heavy.

I imagine the idea was that Scourge could jump to a building with good fire arcs *rather than be parked on it from deployment* - as was sort of necessary with things like Devastators. Then they could jump down on to objectives near the end of the game.

It didn't really work out like that - but that's GW for you.

Yeah Scourges using the Heavy weapons never made sense to me at all
And they wern't the only Dark Eldar unit affected by them clearly being designed to do things the rules just didn't allow for at the time.
Splinter rifles being rapid fire when (back in third) moving caused you to lose half your range and only having one shot never made sense as the standard weapon for an army that was supposed to be a hit and run force for example

Jbz` wrote:

Splinter rifles being rapid fire when (back in third) moving caused you to lose half your range

Or more than half if you were Tau(something a LOT of people got wrong back then).

A.T. wrote:
Each individual part of the old scourge unit makes some sense when taken out of context - 16 points for a jump troop variant of an 8 point model is steep but not excessive for 3e pricing, particularly for a unit outside of the Fast Attack slot. Similarly prices for special and heavy weapons were always hiked up on units that could take 4.

But the unit as a whole was schizophrenic and seemed to combine the least favourable price hikes with the least favourable wargear availability. The weaponry made them distinct from the Hellions but they were a Jump Pack unit trying to do the job of a Jetpack unit.

Well said - 'schizophrenic' is a good description. To me, they were very niche. With the dark lances I'd spend a turn or two getting them to high ground where assaulting them would be difficult. With the splinter cannons they could jump in close enough to blast lightly armored units but usually needed other fire support and had to be careful avoiding too much counterfire. Currently in our rules they have (as do most other Drukhari and Eldar units) what we call Assault Option, granting them a move in the old assault phase without requiring them to actually assault the enemy. This makes them quite a bit more useful.

As others said, completely terrible in 3rd, basically unplayable. 5th didn't really help them either, its not until honestly 8th they didn't feel bad to play.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
5th didn't really help them either

5th gave them better armour, assault 3 basic weapons, access to blasters as well as assault-melta and haywire weapons, and switched them to fast attack.

They were still pretty much a suicide unit and not cheap considering their melta delivery was only at strength 6, but they were mobile.

A.T. wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
5th didn't really help them either

5th gave them better armour, assault 3 basic weapons, access to blasters as well as assault-melta and haywire weapons, and switched them to fast attack.

They were still pretty much a suicide unit and not cheap considering their melta delivery was only at strength 6, but they were mobile.

Yeah for 22ppm before war gear....

I remember playing against them in 3rd edition and they spent all game trying to get in position with their Dark Lances and only managed 1 shot all game resulting in 1 dead marine. Was pretty funny.

Seemed like such a contradictory idea, having what should have been a Fast Attack choice with Heavy Weapons with no special rule.

I played Dark Eldar in 3rd Edition.

I never used the Dark Lance option. No move/shoot was a terrible price to pay. Having 4 dark lances just wasnt that impressive either. The basic dark Eldar troop unit could take 2 dark lances, and 2 units of 10 warriors with 2 dark lances for your troops slots probably the most popular troops pick.

Scourge with the splinter cannons were somewhat interesting though. They could deep strike and shoot which gave them a guaranteed way to bring their guns to bear at least 1 turn before having to suffer any reprisals. There was also screening in early 3rd edition, so you could park your scourge behind a squad of grotesques or something and they were invulnerable until the grotesques (or whatever other screening unit you chose to use) were destroyed, which was very hard to do.

In current 40k, Space marine Suppressors are jump infantry with heavy weapons. Taking a -1 to hit would be bearable, except the autocannons themselves arent the best. If the autocannon was something that had a bit more AP they might be allright still.

For the most part the "heavy" type gun has been moved to an "assault" type gun on jump pack units; see plasma inceptors. Those are considered to be far better -even at nearly double the points of a Suppressor because of the assault type as well as the superior stats of the plasma incinerator over the accelerator autocannon.

Played Dark Eldar in 3rd, Scourge were fantastic if you know what you were doing.

They had lots of versatility:

• A deep striking unit to deliver a lot of Splinter Cannon fire power to a key target, 16 strength 4 AP 5 shots was not to be sniffed at.

• Upgrade one model to be a Sybarite, give them a Web way Portal, and then you go forego deployment, deep strike in, next turn open the portal and then launch your army through the portal on their Raiders. I did this a lot, it either worked well... or you deepstriked off the table and lost the game. Fun times!

• Dark Eldar are good in combat, upgrade the Sybarite to have an Agoniser, Splinter Pistol, and Combat Drugs (5 attacks on the charge hitting on 3+, wounding in 4+ that ignores armour saves). Max out the unit to 10 models, with those 4 Splinter cannons (assault 4), and the units speed, you can do a fair bit of damage as you close in to melee. Dark Eldar were always safer in melee due to their high WS and Initiative, and the lack of AP5 melee weapons.

• Small units with 4 Dark Lances had their use, deploy to threaten a flank, then use their speed to redeploy (fleet of foot to add to your movement). Yes you lose a turn of shooting, but you will have herded the enemies vehicles away from one flank (the threat from 4 Dark Lances was real), attack them in that turn with a Ravenger, or the other Dark Lance's you have.
Sometimes the threat is enough as it allows other parts of your force to be the threat.

Dark Eldar didn’t fight conventionally, which is why a lot of their stuff feels odd. It is odd, and goes against what people were used to at the time. They were a very hard force to use well, but when they worked, it was glorious to behold!

@stonehorse:
Asking as someone who didn't play 3rd, how did you keep them from just getting shot to death? in pre-codex 5th edition (when I really started), scourges basically had guardsman durability at a marine pricetag. It seems like they'd be a prime target for every enemy bolter and flamer in the area.

Was there a quirk of the cover or targeting rules that made them last longer? Seems like you could have gotten similar results out of some warriors for fewer points?

 Wyldhunt wrote:
@stonehorse:
Asking as someone who didn't play 3rd, how did you keep them from just getting shot to death? in pre-codex 5th edition (when I really started), scourges basically had guardsman durability at a marine pricetag. It seems like they'd be a prime target for every enemy bolter and flamer in the area.

Was there a quirk of the cover or targeting rules that made them last longer? Seems like you could have gotten similar results out of some warriors for fewer points?

It seems to me, Stonehorse was talking more how they played in 5th rather than 3rd.

I didn't play DE till 5th. I third they were pretty terrible. I payed against a lot of DE armies and they never did well. But I felt they played the wrong game. At the time, DE was almost entirely Raider spam assault. Basically, they went first or loss. But I thought there was a better way, more durable. Infantry (read - warrior) horde and heavy shooty. I suppose in that playstyle with the warriors taking the fire, the scourges should do better.

 stonehorse wrote:
• Upgrade one model to be a Sybarite, give them a Web way Portal, and then you go forego deployment, deep strike in, next turn open the portal and then launch your army through the portal on their Raiders. I did this a lot, it either worked well... or you deepstriked off the table and lost the game. Fun times!

Got to make sure to use the large blast marker and not the small one, else someone would park their rhino on your deployment zone :p

(more specifically you couldn't deploy within 1" of a model, including when moving from a webway, so missing the board wasn't the only risk with scatter)

 stonehorse wrote:


• Upgrade one model to be a Sybarite, give them a Web way Portal, and then you go forego deployment, deep strike in, next turn open the portal and then launch your army through the portal on their Raiders. I did this a lot, it either worked well... or you deepstriked off the table and lost the game. Fun times!

Please do. I can't tell you how many people tried it just to take a Vindicator or other ID Pie Plate to the face before being able to place that template and lost because they had no way to place the rest of the army. Webway DE builds were the shortest games I ever played.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
@stonehorse:
Asking as someone who didn't play 3rd, how did you keep them from just getting shot to death? in pre-codex 5th edition (when I really started), scourges basically had guardsman durability at a marine pricetag. It seems like they'd be a prime target for every enemy bolter and flamer in the area.

Was there a quirk of the cover or targeting rules that made them last longer? Seems like you could have gotten similar results out of some warriors for fewer points?

As the Scourges could deep strike onto the board, they would be aiming to be somewhere where the enemy couldn't get to or shoot for a couple of turns. We played with a lot of terrain. Also while Scourges did indeed have a low Toughness and poor save, the damage out put in 3rd edition wasn't like what it is now. If I recall correctly my games if doing this were before Tau were a thing. So totally different game back then.

The reason for doing it with Scourges,was that it could deny your opponent a whole turn, as they had nothing to shoot at if your unit came on after them, and it allowed you to see possibly pick a point to strike from that was better than that available in your deployment area, but mainly because it was fun!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 firmlog wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
@stonehorse:
Asking as someone who didn't play 3rd, how did you keep them from just getting shot to death? in pre-codex 5th edition (when I really started), scourges basically had guardsman durability at a marine pricetag. It seems like they'd be a prime target for every enemy bolter and flamer in the area.

Was there a quirk of the cover or targeting rules that made them last longer? Seems like you could have gotten similar results out of some warriors for fewer points?

It seems to me, Stonehorse was talking more how they played in 5th rather than 3rd.

I didn't play DE till 5th. I third they were pretty terrible. I payed against a lot of DE armies and they never did well. But I felt they played the wrong game. At the time, DE was almost entirely Raider spam assault. Basically, they went first or loss. But I thought there was a better way, more durable. Infantry (read - warrior) horde and heavy shooty. I suppose in that playstyle with the warriors taking the fire, the scourges should do better.

Nope, most definitely 3rd. 3rd edition was arguably one of the best editions for Dark Eldar... that Codex was utter filth, 110pts for a 10 man Warrior squad with 2 Dark Lances, and 2 Blasters. Raider Dquads that were just a delivery mechanism for the Sybarite with Agoniser, Splinter Pistol, and Combat Drugs... a unit champion that put out more power weapon attacks than most HQ choices from other forces, and being a unit champion couldn't be singled out. They just wiped out what ever they got to touch.

Dark Eldar where a glass knife army, very very fragile, but quick and will happily slice up anything. It seems to me that you encountered people who didn’t know how to use the list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:


• Upgrade one model to be a Sybarite, give them a Web way Portal, and then you go forego deployment, deep strike in, next turn open the portal and then launch your army through the portal on their Raiders. I did this a lot, it either worked well... or you deepstriked off the table and lost the game. Fun times!

Please do. I can't tell you how many people tried it just to take a Vindicator or other ID Pie Plate to the face before being able to place that template and lost because they had no way to place the rest of the army. Webway DE builds were the shortest games I ever played.

As I said, I did do it for the fun. It either worked spectacularly, or failed miserably. When DS the unit it would be dumb to go anywhere near the enemy, would always DS them in what would have been the Dark Eldar deployment area, and tben behind as much terrain to hide the unit as possible.

You deny the opponent a whole turn via them needing to shoot Scourge?