Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys, know there are a fair few existing Epic gamers down in these nether regions of the forums. What are your plans now that it looks like a new 'official' version of the game is coming, via the announcement at Warhammerfest yesterday?

First of all - as much as I get a bit saddened at the number of people who seem unwilling to get free rules from NetEpic/Net Armageddon, cheaper prints/proxies and are only willing to buy shrink-wrapped and new from GW.com, I think this can only be a positive for the existing Epic community - it will mean more players and growth of communities. And even if the game is only supported for a few years, a bunch of (what I assume will be) quality plastics that people who just follow the latest fads will have bought and then put on eBay, helping to lower the insane official mini prices that exist at the moment.

One of the main fears I have read about are that the official rules will suck and this will fracture the existing community, between those who will keep playing existing versions and others who will go with the new rules regardless of quality. I don't think this fear is unfounded as this arguably happened with Necromunda, and took a real period of time and effort from communities like Yaktribe to find some sort of equilibrium. But, I would say in the case of Epic, the community is already pretty fractured, as people tend to use whichever ruleset they like and are pretty rules agnostic. So again, although I'm hoping for a solid ruleset (and really, my grognard's choice would be they just follow the route of Blood Bowl and pretty much copy an old ruleset wholesale), again I don't think it would be the end of the world if the new rules are poor. Although it will be a lost opportunity and we can be angry that this will put off new players coming in (and really, a spectacular miss of an open goal from 6 yards out, given the existing rulesets they could just re-use).

Finally, other concerns I have read are about GW legal going after proxy mini producers (Vanguard, Onslaught etc) and the 3D files for STLs being wiped, now that official minis are coming. I genuinely don't know how much danger there is of this happening. I would like to think Vanguard at least would be safe, as the owner makes so much effort to differentiate names and his designs have their own spin.

Anyway - interested to hear thoughts of the existing Epic community and what your plans, hopes and fears are.

Feeling positive. At the worst it'd be a bunch of neat models bringing awareness of the scale to a wider audience and the established fanbase will keep chugging on like before.

The game can very well be a solid ruleset or a dud, there's potential for both in GW writers. Regardless, the existing editions aren't going anywhere and more players means more eyes on them, too.

I'd like to add a footnote regarding IP and my view on Epic (for context. My daily job involves respecting established IP & copyright laws):

Games Workshop is the originator of all the original Epic games. Therefore, every time there is a way for me to get into the game using official GW products, I will do so. It's no different than preferring to play Monopoly with the official board game rather than a DIY or 3rd party version. Or alternatively, buying genuine Nike footwear instead of "Neki".

Why having such a preference would make anyone sad?

As for GW hunting 3rd party makers for infringing on their IP, why is this again a bad thing? 3rd party makers are always free to make their own 6mm scale scifi wargames with unique IP. From what I've heard, GW only goes after cases where very distinct aspects of their IP has been copied verbatim.

 tauist wrote:
I'd like to add a footnote regarding IP and my view on Epic (for context. My daily job involves respecting established IP & copyright laws):

Games Workshop is the originator of all the original Epic games. Therefore, every time there is a way for me to get into the game using official GW products, I will do so. It's no different than preferring to play Monopoly with the official board game rather than a DIY or 3rd party version. Or alternatively, buying genuine Nike footwear instead of "Neki".

Why having such a preference would make anyone sad?

Mostly if the case is, as it has been for the last two decades, that there are perfectly playable games out there with rich third party and fan-made model ranges but folks categorically refuse to play them because official GW stores haven't carried model lines for them. While gatekeeping is dumb, it can also be perplexing to see people outright refuse to have fun if said fun isn't Official(tm).

Not to say this would be so in your case, a pure GW preference is fine when that option exists at all.

That's a very good point Tauist and I think a completely valid reason for not getting into Epic previously, or not wanting to support 3rd party producers.

Me being sad is because I think Epic is (and has been) a wonderful game. It's like a great piece of music, or a good film, when you enjoy something a lot you want other people to enjoy it too. So, because I feel people are missing out on a great game by not wanting to travel off-piste at all with their hobby, that's why I feel it's a shame. That was all that was meant by that comment.

I suppose regarding the support of official products, remember that for many years Epic has not been available officially. Other than buying AT minis and terrain (which actually a good number of the Epic community do) there was no way of really supporting GW even if you wanted to. Contrast with something like Monopoly, which AFAIK has never really left store shelves since it has been created.

Looking forward to decent rules to run a Knight House, but if Epic turns out to be as disappointing as Adeptus Titanicus then I'll be happy to stick with Horizon Wars.

My opinion on this is:

I don't believe the hype coming from warhammerfest. Its a large amount of people seeing what they want to see. There is nothing in that 2 second clip that says its a miniatures game. Faeit has been spouting the same nonsense rumours since the year after GW killed of specialist games. People are imprinting the BS from those rumours on to that video.

The only thing that has me reasoning that it could be a new version of Epic is that gargant box behind Louise on her new painting channel, coupled with Duncan putting out a painting video on Epic the week before. That felt more like a hint from those that might know but couldn't say, than anything thats been put out so far!

To me it looks more like a promo shot for a video game, probably a mobile game at that. I'll believe that its a 'proper' version of Epic when we see the first pictures of actual miniatures. (And even then, it better come with a release date as well. They've been teasing models for the old world over the weekend, and from that awful preview the game doesn't sound like that even exists! )

But if it should be new version of Epic:

If the model scale matches the AI/AT stuff, and mixes in with what would be classed as the 'current' scale for Epic (Vanguard, Onslaught, Perfect Six etc) then I would buy things like starter sets or value boxes (Like the knight one they did a few Christmases ago) and use them along side the Epic 40k rules.

I've zero interest in new rules, or FOMO DLC type content (Like custom dice, cards, forge world add on packs 'but only until stocks run out 3 mins into preorders') None of that holds any interest to me. I brought a couple of the AT campaign books, a whole bunch of models but never brought any of the rulebooks or grandmaster sets they did.

I don't see GW having any way of being able to stop 3rd parties now, I suspect they would be laughed out of court. Third party minis have been around years, if they could have done something about it before they would have done. If they tried to take them to court, they could probably be counter sued as their new Epic minis would be the 'newer' copies. I don't think court would care that GW used to make a similar model in that scale back in 1989.

I don't care about any fracture of the community- and I'm sure it will. Look at the awful attitudes on the "Official" AT group. That is going to carry over to a new version of Epic for sure. I've no time for people like that in this hobby. To be honest, I only care that I can continue to enjoy my own collection of minis and anyone caught complaining about other people using 3rd party minis, older rule sets or generally bringing 'corporate' attitudes into the hobby don't interest me in the slightest. The only time I'd take notice is if it was someone local, cause then I'd add them to the (very small) list of people that would not be welcome at anything ever put on my by my group.

I do see it being the decline of things like vanguard though. Some people clearly buy his minis as a 'stop gap' as nothing official has been available for a decade now. I've brought a few big bundles in the last couple of years, just to make sure I have some spare bits should he shut up shop anytime soon, and a new version of Epic would probably make me grab a couple thousand more bases from him just to be safe!

I've seen some comments across the groups of people looking forward to 'official' epic minis, so they can play in official settings. But other than perhaps one tournament at warhammer world a year, I highly doubt we will much in the way of official support outside of mini releases. A good percentage of stores have trouble putting on main line games, I doubt we will be seeing people playing Epic in warhammer stores at all. So I don't get this mad wanting for playing in 'official' capacity at all.

One last personal thing- if it is new Epic then its obviously going to be HH only. I have zero interest in more HH games from GW. Firstly I prefer orks. Secondly, they could easily release the HH as a supplement to be played within a 'all races' version of Epic. But making it HH only just stops people that want to play Xenos or even other human factions from jumping in to the game. Even if they were the best rules ever, in the best ever value boxset, in the greatest version of Epic ever seen, I'd not want to buy in big for a game that might have xenos added at a later date- sales pending.

Current GW rules design ethos makes a point to have you playing "gotta catch them all" with the rules, and tend to have books that are woefully overwritten and at the same time extensively incomplete... so I'll probably take a look at the rules if and only if they come bundled with a very good value starter.

Otherwise, I don't really need anything from them.

Definitely looking forward. Should hopefully see lots of plastic and the smaller scale will allow them to try creating new vehicles and backgrounds. New Epic could and should be the place where new superheavies and new war engines appear (such as the Warmaster and warbringer titans for Titanicus). Here’s hoping the rules are close to Epic:A though the space marine engine was alright and I had a lot of fun with it

Never played Epic but played and loved Warmaster. Just love the scale, huge armies and vast battlefields!

Im looking forward to collect two armies but it will all depend on if I fancy the ruleset or not.
I have too much stuff already just for the collecting part of the hobby to justify any more, if I buy into Epic it will be to play

But I sure do hope I will, the idea of huge armies with these glorious AT and AI models present has me all warm inside!

I don't have a dog in this fight as I've never been interested in playing Epic. However I can say that my favourite third party Patreon has had to take down several high-quality STLs following legal threats and I would be *extremely* surprised to see the new edition being:
A: Cheaper than home-printing.
B: A better ruleset than whatever the most commonly accepted fan rules are.
C: Supportive of as wide a range of factions, subfactions and unit types, both in rules and availability of models.

I play Warmaster Revolution and would much prefer GW to keep away for the same reasons.
New models and community excitement is great, but on balance it is much better for the players when its managed by the players.

Gw would never catch up to the community in the amount of playable factions or rules quality. Only way that could happen is if gw lawyers destroys the current epic community.

And i bet after a year, gw will not really support the game, like aeronautica and titanicus.

I'll stick to netEA and epicUk so i can play my orks and eldar.

had Space Marine when it was a thing, really loved 1st edition, 2nd was ok, lacked some of the feel of it and simplified things that didn't really need it but was fine

wasn't gaming when the other versions came out

half suspect the issue here will be GW wanting to make damned sure this doesn't detract from 40k sales, i.e. has to appeal to "new" players not existing ones. Will have to see, it being HH doesn't bother me as HH came out of the first edition needing to be done with a single plastic frame so had to be marine v marine

though I do hope they decide its easier to work with a community on existing rules and focus more on the models side of it where they can actually add value

not holding my breath, but a decent boxed set with models that I like the look of and would consider it

No doubt will get and play, then go back to Epic:A because it seems the release is just space marines?

Mozzamanx wrote:
I don't have a dog in this fight as I've never been interested in playing Epic. However I can say that my favourite third party Patreon has had to take down several high-quality STLs following legal threats and I would be *extremely* surprised to see the new edition being:
A: Cheaper than home-printing.
B: A better ruleset than whatever the most commonly accepted fan rules are.
C: Supportive of as wide a range of factions, subfactions and unit types, both in rules and availability of models.
.

I think it would be a reasonable assumption that none of those things will be the case.

The counter to this will be the large new numbers of players that an official release will bring to the community. And, even after the fad passes, and GW stop new releases for it, hopefully some of those will stick around and still want to play and take part in events. That's my big hope for a new release (assuming there is one! As there are a fair few challenges about it being a computer game, or even a completely different game other than Epic, which could certainly be possible).

That's interesting with the STLs being removed. Were they Epic-specific, or just ones that had come too close to the wire in copying GW sculpts?

If it indeed is based on the most boring part of the setting (Horus Heresy aka marines vs marines vs more marines) it would be a pass from me.

If I could play Orks or Eldar on the other hand... I have always wanted to try out E:A but there were absolutely no people playing or interested in starting.

 Pacific wrote:

That's interesting with the STLs being removed. Were they Epic-specific, or just ones that had come too close to the wire in copying GW sculpts?

I'm not an IP lawyer but they were pretty obvious in their intentions.
I recognize that IP is a difficult area to navigate and obviously GW deserve the credit for creating Epic. However these were also extremely high quality sculpts for a game that had, at that point, been discontinued and so it seemed to be fairly victimless. That these STLs have now been removed from easy circulation and further works seem unlikely can only be a bad thing for the player.

Mozzamanx wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

That's interesting with the STLs being removed. Were they Epic-specific, or just ones that had come too close to the wire in copying GW sculpts?

I'm not an IP lawyer but they were pretty obvious in their intentions.
I recognize that IP is a difficult area to navigate and obviously GW deserve the credit for creating Epic. However these were also extremely high quality sculpts for a game that had, at that point, been discontinued and so it seemed to be fairly victimless. That these STLs have now been removed from easy circulation and further works seem unlikely can only be a bad thing for the player.

Spoiler:

The interesting point here is that the marines have been C&Ded... but the Armageddon Steel Leggionaires from the same designer, of the same scale, haven't.



I feel that might telll something about their plans.

I would assume those stls could be scaled up and printed for 28mm too. The marines would then contest the current horus heresy range. But the steel legions are not for sale so lawyers could do nothing.

 Gitdakka wrote:
I would assume those stls could be scaled up and printed for 28mm too. The marines would then contest the current horus heresy range. But the steel legions are not for sale so lawyers could do nothing.

Any STL can, and GW was literally selling Steel Legion in the timeframe of the C&D, in MTO format. And it's on the same storefront, from the same designer, so I don't buy that they didn't see them.

Plus, issuing a C&D usually has little to do with the actual rights of a company, and in this case GW has the exact same rights to the HH marines as to Steel Legion, as they still sell both, even if by different methods (...and also, you don't lose the rights of a thing because you don't sell it at this very moment, you know).

I get your point, but as I recall the whole chapter approved lawsuit ended up with GW not winning in cases where they did not provide a product.

 Sherrypie wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I'd like to add a footnote regarding IP and my view on Epic (for context. My daily job involves respecting established IP & copyright laws):

Games Workshop is the originator of all the original Epic games. Therefore, every time there is a way for me to get into the game using official GW products, I will do so. It's no different than preferring to play Monopoly with the official board game rather than a DIY or 3rd party version. Or alternatively, buying genuine Nike footwear instead of "Neki".

Why having such a preference would make anyone sad?

Mostly if the case is, as it has been for the last two decades, that there are perfectly playable games out there with rich third party and fan-made model ranges but folks categorically refuse to play them because official GW stores haven't carried model lines for them. While gatekeeping is dumb, it can also be perplexing to see people outright refuse to have fun if said fun isn't Official(tm).

Not to say this would be so in your case, a pure GW preference is fine when that option exists at all.

Ultimately the games you're describing, however perfectly playable they may be, are not a product that people can buy into. They are an assortment of homebrew rulesets and garage kits coming from disparate sources, which raises the barrier to entry for newcomers and acts as an obstacle for players to get into as theres no real "one stop shop" option to buy from - likewise most local gaming stores will never stock any of those product.

Likewise, theres a certain convenience factor to having "one ruleset to rule them all" that you can show up to your local shop and say "hey, anyone up for a game of epic?" and not have to go through the rigamarole of "great, I love netepic", "no, I was interested in NetArmageddon", "oh, 2nd edition or revised edition?", etc.

Its not about things not being "official", its that its pretty much DIY gaming and that takes a lot more effort from people to get involved in.

Soulless wrote:
Never played Epic but played and loved Warmaster. Just love the scale, huge armies and vast battlefields!

Im looking forward to collect two armies but it will all depend on if I fancy the ruleset or not.

I have too much stuff already just for the collecting part of the hobby to justify any more, if I buy into Epic it will be to play

But I sure do hope I will, the idea of huge armies with these glorious AT and AI models present has me all warm inside!

Just wanted to point out warmaster and epic are different scales (warmaster was 10mm, epic was 6mm-ish and now is maybe more like 8mm-ish depending on who you ask). MIght seem like a trivial size difference but in actuality you're talking a 20-40% difference in size.

@chaos0xmega

About your statements, you could say pretty much the exact same thing about napoleonics or ACW wargaming. Many different rules sets and miniatures manufacturers. Inconsistent scales etc. Yet wide communities exist for such wargaming despite those limitations.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think epic can be bought into by players even if GW don't commit.

It's not that people can't buy into them, they certainly can especially in this online era, but there certainly is an entry barrier of first becoming aware of such things in absence of corporate advertising. Getting into Napoleonics is easy if your area already has people interested in Shako or the like, just like getting into Epic is easy if your area already has folks who know where to shop or print their stuff.

I'm not disagreeing with the notion that it is a bit DIY and thus less trivial to have new players stumble into by themselves, but that's a separate issue from the also extant phenomenon of already well-established miniature gamers shying away from "unsupported" games. When the psychological barrier has been surpassed, buying into the games themselves isn't really that difficult. Instead of going into GW store to buy rulebooks and minis, one can read rules freely online and buy or print minis from any one place just as well.

 Gitdakka wrote:
I get your point, but as I recall the whole chapter approved lawsuit ended up with GW not winning in cases where they did not provide a product.

It was that GW cannot claim copyright for models if there is only an artwork (not 3d renders)
once there are models they can make their claims

hence a 1:1 copy of existing models, no matter if they are currently sold or not is a problem and the steel legion are carbon copies of old models, even if they are sold for a smaller scale, and not new models with the same theme so GW can make a copyright claim

if the models would be based of an artwork, GW can do nothing about it

 Gitdakka wrote:
@chaos0xmega

About your statements, you could say pretty much the exact same thing about napoleonics or ACW wargaming. Many different rules sets and miniatures manufacturers. Inconsistent scales etc. Yet wide communities exist for such wargaming despite those limitations.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think epic can be bought into by players even if GW don't commit.

The communities for those wargames aren't any wider than the community for "unofficial epic". Select historicals (Napoleonics and ACW included) have seen a surge in popularity as a result of Warlord and Perry Miniatures efforts to market them as "product", otherwise those games were for many years just as invisible outside of very small and exclusive clubs meeting in dark dusty rooms and at large conventions.

Really? That's odd. Firstly I didnt think perry or warlord did that much for the popularity, as napoleonics and ACW settings are mostly played in smaller scales.

Secondly I would assume those historical settings are the most popular after ww2 and possibly ancients.

 Gitdakka wrote:
I get your point, but as I recall the whole chapter approved lawsuit ended up with GW not winning in cases where they did not provide a product.

Thing is, GW still keeps issuing C&Ds with no product, or where the things they want down are not copies, but proxies.

Honestly, it's mostly the timing that makes it suspect, in this case.

What am I going to do, specifically? Giggle with glee, mortgage my house and dive in.

Or if I HAVEN'T been drinking, keep playing 2nd Ed Space Marine and making stuff out of granny grating and asthma inhalers

Will buy but hope the rules are like armagedon like those rules the best. Its a shame when its only 30k would like to own eldar and ork models from gw. i do have a 3d printed ork army for EA.
missing onlu some stompas and supper stompas, i did make some stompas on my own and they look like those from the book but would like to have the real ones.