Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys.
I´ve been looking at the information released so far on the GW site, and as far as I can tell, the new terminators don´t have a cyclone missile launcher.
I can see the assault cannon is still there, but no missile.
Are they not going to be able to equip them anymore????

 Snowcloak wrote:
Hi guys.
I´ve been looking at the information released so far on the GW site, and as far as I can tell, the new terminators don´t have a cyclone missile launcher.
I can see the assault cannon is still there, but no missile.
Are they not going to be able to equip them anymore????

I think the common guess at this point is these are just push-fit starter marines, and should not be an indicator of all options. We won’t know until we have the full codex in hand, but I’m not bin your old guys yet.

 Snowcloak wrote:
Hi guys.
I´ve been looking at the information released so far on the GW site, and as far as I can tell, the new terminators don´t have a cyclone missile launcher.
I can see the assault cannon is still there, but no missile.
Are they not going to be able to equip them anymore????

They showed their datasheet, which included one, so i don't think they'll remove it.

Woops, forgot we had a full leak on them.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/04/just-how-tough-are-terminators-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

Yeah, as someone pointed out the ETB (Easy To Build) versions of model kits frequently have fewer options, or worse quality or both -

The ETB Inceptors only had the Assault Bolter option, and it (or their shoes or both I forget) was uglier to boot.

These are ETB Terminators for the Launch Box and presumably the new starter boxes.

It is generally believed there will be a full option kit in the future.

Kind of lame not to have it on there though. It's not easy for us scrub hobbyists to figure something out. I suppose someone will print something.

It's cause GW uses the easy to build kits as super simple intro kits. The theory is easy, push fit, no options models that let new people build and get into the game really fast with no thinking or worries.

Just push and go.

Surely they could figure out a push on cyclone rack. It'd have to be a specific model I imagine, but there's probably more to that problem than I'm aware of.

Naw they likely could, but they probably had limits on how many push fit options they wanted in the box as well as sprue space. Or they just didn't pick that one upgrade over other.s

It’s not that they couldn’t, it’s that they don’t want to.

Starter models are supposed to be simple. When little Timmy puts together the box, there should not be any wrong choices. No accidentally building an illegal squad.

Has there ever been a starter set where you could? Even the early ones with tactical squads where the rules gave you tons of options just came out of the starter with ML/F, BP/chainsword sarge. (Or full plasma in 6-7th with the DA).

Starter was basic simple limited. You wanted all the bells and whistles, but the full kit.

 Nevelon wrote:
It’s not that they couldn’t, it’s that they don’t want to.

Starter models are supposed to be simple. When little Timmy puts together the box, there should not be any wrong choices. No accidentally building an illegal squad.

Has there ever been a starter set where you could? Even the early ones with tactical squads where the rules gave you tons of options just came out of the starter with ML/F, BP/chainsword sarge. (Or full plasma in 6-7th with the DA).

Starter was basic simple limited. You wanted all the bells and whistles, but the full kit.

This.

Exactly this. Starter = Basic = Foolproof.

I'm actually thinking of just grabbing the rulebook from Leviathan and waiting for the full plastic kit to arrive later. I want all options before deciding if I want to use these new kits or the SMH2 instead. Big issue for me will be interchangeability of the shoulder pads, if the new kit shoulderpads are nowhere near compatible with the old bits, I'm sticking with the SMH2 models.. that is, unless FW makes some resin shoulderpad upgrades for Indomi termies again..

 Nevelon wrote:
It’s not that they couldn’t, it’s that they don’t want to.

Starter models are supposed to be simple. When little Timmy puts together the box, there should not be any wrong choices. No accidentally building an illegal squad.

Has there ever been a starter set where you could? Even the early ones with tactical squads where the rules gave you tons of options just came out of the starter with ML/F, BP/chainsword sarge. (Or full plasma in 6-7th with the DA).

Starter was basic simple limited. You wanted all the bells and whistles, but the full kit.

Mind you, once you start down this path, you can get lost in the weeds of GW's incoherent arguments that 'launch boxes' and 'starter boxes' are totally different. Mostly, as far as I can tell, because they lack dice and whippy sticks for measuring.

 Nevelon wrote:
It’s not that they couldn’t, it’s that they don’t want to.

Starter models are supposed to be simple. When little Timmy puts together the box, there should not be any wrong choices. No accidentally building an illegal squad.

Has there ever been a starter set where you could? Even the early ones with tactical squads where the rules gave you tons of options just came out of the starter with ML/F, BP/chainsword sarge. (Or full plasma in 6-7th with the DA).

Starter was basic simple limited. You wanted all the bells and whistles, but the full kit.

The current assault intercessor easy builds are about as customisable as ETB marines have ever been, a couple of sergeant variants and a pretty neat option to build said sergeant as a rank and file marine presumably to get the squad up to a full 10 if you have multiples of the starter set. None of that on the new terminators - pretty understandable as you don't want an absolute beginner building weird combo's of multiple heavy weapons or giving the sergeant a dreaded not-powersword.

Voss wrote:
Mind you, once you start down this path, you can get lost in the weeds of GW's incoherent arguments that 'launch boxes' and 'starter boxes' are totally different. Mostly, as far as I can tell, because they lack dice and whippy sticks for measuring.

For 40k and AoS it's pretty simple really.
A Launch Box happens at the start of a new edition (Indomitus, Dark Imperium, Dominion) and the Starter Sets are what get released later with the cardboard terrain and ETB models at different price points with more models in the more expensive versions. Kits that feature in the Launch Box also tend to get separate releases with more modeling options later on (Intercessors, Gutrippaz, Aggressors), though this sometimes takes ages *cough*Gravis Captain*cough*.

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
Mind you, once you start down this path, you can get lost in the weeds of GW's incoherent arguments that 'launch boxes' and 'starter boxes' are totally different. Mostly, as far as I can tell, because they lack dice and whippy sticks for measuring.

For 40k and AoS it's pretty simple really.
A Launch Box happens at the start of a new edition (Indomitus, Dark Imperium, Dominion) and the Starter Sets are what get released later with the cardboard terrain and ETB models at different price points with more models in the more expensive versions. Kits that feature in the Launch Box also tend to get separate releases with more modeling options later on (Intercessors, Gutrippaz, Aggressors), though this sometimes takes ages *cough*Gravis Captain*cough*.

Or doesn't happen at all: Outriders, Warriors, Skorpekhs. They're the same kit as the launch box and the core sets (though buying them separately is nuts, as they've been in the Elite edition together for a big chunk of change less, plus other stuff.

Though Dark Imperium was a starter set that stuck around for the length of 8th edition. Which is my point- the definitions are arbitrary and new, as Leviathan will only be the third one. The HH box came close to being a launch box, but GW seems to have changed their mind on that as its been an ongoing item so far.

Voss wrote:
Or doesn't happen at all: Outriders, Warriors, Skorpekhs. They're the same kit as the launch box and the core sets (though buying them separately is nuts, as they've been in the Elite edition together for a big chunk of change less, plus other stuff.

Hence why I said "tend to" and not "always".

Though Dark Imperium was a starter set that stuck around for the length of 8th edition. Which is my point- the definitions are arbitrary and new, as Leviathan will only be the third one. The HH box came close to being a launch box, but GW seems to have changed their mind on that as its been an ongoing item so far.

Which is why I specifically said 40k and AoS, not just Warhammer. My guy, you gotta actually read my posts.

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
Or doesn't happen at all: Outriders, Warriors, Skorpekhs. They're the same kit as the launch box and the core sets (though buying them separately is nuts, as they've been in the Elite edition together for a big chunk of change less, plus other stuff.

Hence why I said "tend to" and not "always".

'tend to' is not simply being mostly wrong.

Though Dark Imperium was a starter set that stuck around for the length of 8th edition. Which is my point- the definitions are arbitrary and new, as Leviathan will only be the third one. The HH box came close to being a launch box, but GW seems to have changed their mind on that as its been an ongoing item so far.

Which is why I specifically said 40k and AoS, not just Warhammer. My guy, you gotta actually read my posts.

Voss wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
Or doesn't happen at all: Outriders, Warriors, Skorpekhs. They're the same kit as the launch box and the core sets (though buying them separately is nuts, as they've been in the Elite edition together for a big chunk of change less, plus other stuff.

Hence why I said "tend to" and not "always".

'tend to' is not simply being mostly wrong.

Though Dark Imperium was a starter set that stuck around for the length of 8th edition. Which is my point- the definitions are arbitrary and new, as Leviathan will only be the third one. The HH box came close to being a launch box, but GW seems to have changed their mind on that as its been an ongoing item so far.

Which is why I specifically said 40k and AoS, not just Warhammer. My guy, you gotta actually read my posts.

I did. Which is why I called you out on Dark Imperium.
HH was worth mentioning because GW initially called it a launch box, then backed down about it. Strangely, its not about you.

Out of the three, Outriders are the ones that suffer the most for their starter-box nature.

Zero options.
Zero posability.
Zero variation in squad size.

 Overread wrote:
Naw they likely could, but they probably had limits on how many push fit options they wanted in the box as well as sprue space. Or they just didn't pick that one upgrade over other.s

That and they don't want options on ETB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
I'm actually thinking of just grabbing the rulebook from Leviathan and waiting for the full plastic kit to arrive later. I want all options before deciding if I want to use these new kits or the SMH2 instead. Big issue for me will be interchangeability of the shoulder pads, if the new kit shoulderpads are nowhere near compatible with the old bits, I'm sticking with the SMH2 models.. that is, unless FW makes some resin shoulderpad upgrades for Indomi termies again..

I'll likely buy the full kit - The Flamer Boys are meh. But I assume I'll want at least 1 squad for completionism. Who knows what or if they'll get a weapon swaption. Suppressors didn't and I'm not sure what role they could swap to that isn't already a thing. I know I'll want at least a couple Terminator and Sternguard Squads while the one Captain, especially since its Agemman. The Libby, and Dread are likely a 1 for Completionism thing as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of the three, Outriders are the ones that suffer the most for their starter-box nature.

Zero options.
Zero posability.
Zero variation in squad size.

Outriders and Suppressors. And the biggest pain point is the 3 and only 3 squad size - shared by the Eliminators etc. 5 Las Fusil Eliminators (in one slot choice - which may no longer apply) would be far more threatening than 3 - and 10 Snipers might be close to viable - which you still wouldn't be able to get with the Rule of 3.

Voss wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
Or doesn't happen at all: Outriders, Warriors, Skorpekhs. They're the same kit as the launch box and the core sets (though buying them separately is nuts, as they've been in the Elite edition together for a big chunk of change less, plus other stuff.

Hence why I said "tend to" and not "always".

'tend to' is not simply being mostly wrong.

Though Dark Imperium was a starter set that stuck around for the length of 8th edition. Which is my point- the definitions are arbitrary and new, as Leviathan will only be the third one. The HH box came close to being a launch box, but GW seems to have changed their mind on that as its been an ongoing item so far.

Which is why I specifically said 40k and AoS, not just Warhammer. My guy, you gotta actually read my posts.

I did. Which is why I called you out on Dark Imperium.
HH was worth mentioning because GW initially called it a launch box, then backed down about it. Strangely, it’s not about you.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of the three, Outriders are the ones that suffer the most for their starter-box nature.

Zero options.
Zero posability.
Zero variation in squad size.

No, they suffer from clown, incompetent writer sabotaging primaris since 8th edition. Hellblasters, Outriders, new Flamer marines, HQs, all wear standard Mk X (not fancy variant like Bladeguard or Chaplain) and you should be able to use all the parts from upgrade sprues on them, like you can on Intercessors. The fact you can't is 100% on idiot writing them, not on the lack of bits because these exist. If they can be glued on Intercessors and AI, they should be an option for the rest of Mk X range. Period. An really, on Phobos too, seeing official GW builds do use Mk X arms on Phobos minis so even that excuse of theirs leaks water than a Haruspex hit by an assault cannon

Speaking of Outriders specifically, you can repose them if you trim the rods. That's not the issue. The problem is, sergeant has separate pistol arm and chainsword, there is zero reason besides usual stupid rules to not allow switching them for other weapons. If the issue is left arm holding the steering, simply move sergeant's head to any of the other two outriders (who have separate arms with chainswords trivially replaced with anything else) - and I bet if that was CSM, Eldar, or Tau unit, you'd have all these options and more

 Irbis wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Out of the three, Outriders are the ones that suffer the most for their starter-box nature.

Zero options.
Zero posability.
Zero variation in squad size.

No, they suffer from clown, incompetent writer sabotaging primaris since 8th edition. Hellblasters, Outriders, new Flamer marines, HQs, all wear standard Mk X (not fancy variant like Bladeguard or Chaplain) and you should be able to use all the parts from upgrade sprues on them, like you can on Intercessors. The fact you can't is 100% on idiot writing them, not on the lack of bits because these exist. If they can be glued on Intercessors and AI, they should be an option for the rest of Mk X range. Period. An really, on Phobos too, seeing official GW builds do use Mk X arms on Phobos minis so even that excuse of theirs leaks water than a Haruspex hit by an assault cannon

Speaking of Outriders specifically, you can repose them if you trim the rods. That's not the issue. The problem is, sergeant has separate pistol arm and chainsword, there is zero reason besides usual stupid rules to not allow switching them for other weapons. If the issue is left arm holding the steering, simply move sergeant's head to any of the other two outriders (who have separate arms with chainswords trivially replaced with anything else) - and I bet if that was CSM, Eldar, or Tau unit, you'd have all these options and more

You'd lose that bet. Should I explain the ridiculous restrictions put on CSM Aspiring Champions that removed many long standing legacy options? Like combi-weapons and lightning claws? Despite the combi-weapons from the Chosen kit being completely kitbashable with all of the other infantry kits? And Raptor Aspiring Champions losing the option for lightning claws despite there being ten of them in the Raptor kit itself? This isn't a "Primaris problem", it's a 40k problem.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You'd lose that bet. Should I explain the ridiculous restrictions put on CSM Aspiring Champions that removed many long standing legacy options? Like combi-weapons and lightning claws? Despite the combi-weapons from the Chosen kit being completely kitbashable with all of the other infantry kits? And Raptor Aspiring Champions losing the option for lightning claws despite there being ten of them in the Raptor kit itself? This isn't a "Primaris problem", it's a 40k problem.

And it doesn't give enough credit to the OP's point. The 3-and-only-3 units have failed almost across the board. Suppressors. Outriders. Eliminators. 3-and-only-3 is a no-man's-land guaranteed to please noone. Too small to accomplish anything, too big to ignore. Plus - and this is just a pet peeve of mine - 100 does not divide by 3.

Voss wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
Mind you, once you start down this path, you can get lost in the weeds of GW's incoherent arguments that 'launch boxes' and 'starter boxes' are totally different. Mostly, as far as I can tell, because they lack dice and whippy sticks for measuring.

For 40k and AoS it's pretty simple really.
A Launch Box happens at the start of a new edition (Indomitus, Dark Imperium, Dominion) and the Starter Sets are what get released later with the cardboard terrain and ETB models at different price points with more models in the more expensive versions. Kits that feature in the Launch Box also tend to get separate releases with more modeling options later on (Intercessors, Gutrippaz, Aggressors), though this sometimes takes ages *cough*Gravis Captain*cough*.

Or doesn't happen at all: Outriders, Warriors, Skorpekhs. They're the same kit as the launch box and the core sets (though buying them separately is nuts, as they've been in the Elite edition together for a big chunk of change less, plus other stuff.

Though Dark Imperium was a starter set that stuck around for the length of 8th edition. Which is my point- the definitions are arbitrary and new, as Leviathan will only be the third one. The HH box came close to being a launch box, but GW seems to have changed their mind on that as its been an ongoing item so far.

None of those have missing options though.

This is gw. No model, no rules. We know cyclone etc have rules and thus will have models(

Wild to see everyone collectively forgetting how good Eliminators were when they first came out.

Eliminators also had a game balance reason to be locked into 3 men squads at the start. When the sage could forgo his shooting to buff the squad it was a trade. One less shot for +1 to hit/wound? (I forget the exact buff) Made sense from a lore POV (he was spotting for the 2 shooters) and balance (giving up one shot to boost 2 is a reasonable trade). If he could lead a larger squad things would get fuzzy. How mant shooters could he spot for? And giving up one shot to boost 4+ makes the math a LOT more in favor.

IMHO a sniper squad size of 3 operatives sounds fluffy. I'd also say the same about Hellblasters et al, Primaris infantry could then fill the same field roles as firstborn tacticals (5 interecessor operatives + 3 hellblaster operatives). If the rules don't make such units fieldable, by making them suck on the tabletop, they should be changed to make it work.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more it would make sense: Interecessors in squads of 3 or 5, depending on the battlefield role. It could perform the same as trad 30K-style legions when spamming multiple units, or more like 40K firstborn squads by pairing up a 5 + 3 combo. Even Heavy Interecessors should go to 3 model squads. The base part of such a dual unit would always be either 5 interecessors or 5 assault interecessors, and these would then pair with any 3 model squad which would most optimally complement the battlefield role. Just cram them into a dedicated transport of choice, boom