Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ShumaGorath wrote:It's generally used by trolls and people with nothing to add to a conversation.

That's not very nice, now is it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luke_Prowler wrote:I don't remember anyone calling 5th ed Tyranids OP.

There was quite a bit of OMG TYRANIDS right before the book came out and how they were going to be the most OP book ever. Technically before they came out and not after, but it was certainly present.

That's not very nice, now is it...

It's also not particularly inncacurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:It's generally used by trolls and people with nothing to add to a conversation.

That's not very nice, now is it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luke_Prowler wrote:I don't remember anyone calling 5th ed Tyranids OP.

There was quite a bit of OMG TYRANIDS right before the book came out and how they were going to be the most OP book ever. Technically before they came out and not after, but it was certainly present.

Without a mech meta the book is excessively powerful and many units in it are very capable for their cost. The nid book was sort of the tipping into metalbox hammer (which directly created missilehammer), so observations weren't entirely out of line. Nids have a hard time dealing with missile spam which instakill many of their more powerful units and ignore most of their armor saves on MCs and the codex has a hard time bringing down numerous mobile vehicles. The mech meta and the anti mech submeta (which itself exists in the mech meta) is an anti tyranid meta through and through, but when you stop bringing boxes to the field they start winning games a lot.

Do they speak English in Meta?

Say meta again!

Tac termies are the most similar to grey knight termies on the whole. Ranged attacks, special weapons and and such.

It's not that you can run from every GK build out there either. Personal teleporters and deepstrikes can get people rather close for comfort. Psydreads are rather good to get farseers in the open but I will admit a libby in a land raider can be a tough cookie for several GK builds to get rid of.

I'm not expecting to see everything at once. I'm trying to point out power differences. I can't even get a power weapon without a 35 point model in C:SM and they're running around a few points higher than my tac marines. I find the argument that they're paying an opportunity cost to be a little disingenuous though, since if they wanted those options they can find them elsewhere.

I fully understand my d6 tables. The average leadership check on 3d6 is 10.5 and the odds of double 1s or double 6s is rather high (there's what, 16 instances each out of 216? So 1/6th chance). But as you've stated, we're operating in a vacuum so, yeah with the tervigon right there it probably won't work.

I got 11 attacks from 10 guys + sarge. That's what draigo put forward. And it depends if the trygon is prime or not for shadow in the warp. My math figures it to be about 40% chance of going off. Given the odds we play with in 40k, that's not that bad. It's about the same odds as a penetrating hit from a melta gun which is slightly less.

The average leadership check on 3d6 is 10.5

um.... No, Average is 7. There are 36 combinations of 2 die, and only 4 tie or beat 10....

Edit: oh, 3d6, sorry. Small screen, I thought it said 2d6.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

and the odds of double 1s or double 6s is rather high (there's what, 16 instances each out of 216? So 1/6th chance)

1/36 for both.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
here's the chart

11=2
12=3
13=4
14=5
15=6
16=7
21=3
22=4
23=5
24=6
25=7
26=8
31=4
32=5
33=6
34=7
35=8
36=9
41=5
42=6
43=7
44=8
45=9
46=10
51=6
52=7
53=8
54=9
55=10
56=11
61=7
62=8
63=9
64=10
65=11
66=12

10 guys plus sarge? You mean 9 guys plus Kotf right? they dont go over 10 with the knight. plus given psycanons they lose nfw. So 4 psycanons mean only 6 are attacking with the weapon. Plus you are discounting the shooting of the nids but sayin oh well the gk should beable to shoot. Not really always the case. Also you cannot say cf will o off for certain because of Shadow. A nid player can easily blanket the board with it. So a group of 90 pt gaunts can shut down purifiers for an entire round.

I use the example because people say nids are a bad dex but running math last nite its clear purifers are very fragile and may only get out of the combat with one squad at 5 man strong.. Not really good for some OP unit now is it/

daedalus wrote:
Yeah, they have a lot of stuff to put psykers in their place, however, it's not like that's an issue in every game. You're probably not willfully running your Farseer/Libby into melee combat. The mindstrike missiles are nasty, but they're useless if your opponent can keep his psyker in a transport.

The new basic rulebook FAQ hurts psykers. Unless it is a shooting attack... being in the transport makes that psyker ineffective for buffs and non shooting effects.

Draigo wrote:10 guys plus sarge? You mean 9 guys plus Kotf right? they dont go over 10 with the knight. plus given psycanons they lose nfw. So 4 psycanons mean only 6 are attacking with the weapon. Plus you are discounting the shooting of the nids but sayin oh well the gk should beable to shoot. Not really always the case. Also you cannot say cf will o off for certain because of Shadow. A nid player can easily blanket the board with it. So a group of 90 pt gaunts can shut down purifiers for an entire round.

I use the example because people say nids are a bad dex but running math last nite its clear purifers are very fragile and may only get out of the combat with one squad at 5 man strong.. Not really good for some OP unit now is it/

If you have that many gaunts left that can charge your squad and do that then your probably having a really bad day anyway. I have beaten nid players in 2 turns while practicing for a GT and my opponent was no baby seal. Its just that codex doesnt handle MEQ or mech spam well at all.

Tomb King wrote:

daedalus wrote:
Yeah, they have a lot of stuff to put psykers in their place, however, it's not like that's an issue in every game. You're probably not willfully running your Farseer/Libby into melee combat. The mindstrike missiles are nasty, but they're useless if your opponent can keep his psyker in a transport.

The new basic rulebook FAQ hurts psykers. Unless it is a shooting attack... being in the transport makes that psyker ineffective for buffs and non shooting effects.

Incorrect Tomb King. Reread the FAQ. There is a section that counter acts that.

Darkwynn wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

daedalus wrote:
Yeah, they have a lot of stuff to put psykers in their place, however, it's not like that's an issue in every game. You're probably not willfully running your Farseer/Libby into melee combat. The mindstrike missiles are nasty, but they're useless if your opponent can keep his psyker in a transport.

The new basic rulebook FAQ hurts psykers. Unless it is a shooting attack... being in the transport makes that psyker ineffective for buffs and non shooting effects.

Incorrect Tomb King. Reread the FAQ. There is a section that counter acts that.

Which section is it if you dont mind me asking as currently my PBS is just about worthless in my mech build IG.

Whats your point tomb king? You have beaten people congrats Im happy for you. But that doesnt negate the facts I presented. I highly doubt 18 or so gaunts would be that hard to get into combat with purifiers since even if every shot wounded by most purifier list thats 30 wounds.. Barely enough to kill one squad.

Draigo wrote:Whats your point tomb king? You have beaten people congrats Im happy for you. But that doesnt negate the facts I presented. I highly doubt 18 or so gaunts would be that hard to get into combat with purifiers since even if every shot wounded by most purifier list thats 30 wounds.. Barely enough to kill one squad.

The point wasnt me beating people. It just saying any player with his weight in cookies( ) would have appropriate options to deal with annoying threats like gaunts or wouldnt allow such an engagement to happen if they didnt need to. Sure a unit of 10 guardsman killed abbadon in combat for me once. Was that something I could count on happening again. Probably not!

The gaunts would either break or die from fearless wounds not to mention cleansing flame. I dont see how gaunts could tie up purifiers for a turn. Its free movement given the consolidation. If they have a tervigon there to support them then the purifiers can kill the tervigon with shooting if its still alive this late in the game and remove the support the gaunts would have. I dont have the time atm to crunch all the numbers but you have to account for all the variables.

High five for providing the 3d6 percentage chart. That's awesome. Oh, and rabble rabble Grey Knights.

I can't believe this thread is back to comparing purifiers to tac marines again. And comparing paladins to tac termies? Both of those options are widely considered underpowered... Even when the C:SM book came out. Those options are just not very good on their own.

To make either paladins or purifiers viable in large groups, you have to take a very expensive, or a very sub-par HQ, respectively. I know it is possible to run either out of the elite slot, but everyone seems to be upset that a 10 man paladin squad, that's fully kitted will kill their tac squad. These are not equal things.

If you compare purifiers to tac marines 1v1, the purifier will look better since it has "upgrades" that the marines would have to pay more for or can't get at all. Fortunately for the lowly tac marine this isn't a game of "My one tac marine vs your purifier". If you compare them in equal point chunks, a 10 man purifier squad with all the extras comes in at 358. What do you get for this? Up to two scoring units (If another 150 points is paid), a decent anti light tank fire base, a light assault unit that can tie up/kill a light to medium assault unit, and a psychic power that is effective against hordes with low armour saves.
The C:SM Player gets two full tac squads with ~20 points of wiggle room. For that, you have 5 different heavy weapon options which are all reasonably costed, the option to take a flamer, melta, or plasma as your army needs dictate, up to four scoring units (without the need to pay any additional points), and chapter tactics.

The main advantage of the tac marine is that it is cheap and it has a variety of tools to deal with different situations. Grey knights for the most part have psycannons. Psycannons are pretty good at a lot of things. But they are not reliable in the way that bringing the right gun for the right problem is.

Dok wrote:Psycannons are pretty good at a lot of things. But they are not reliable in the way that bringing the right gun for the right problem is.

So what your saying is they are a better all comers weapon, but not a better specialized weapon? Isnt this game all about finding things that can fill multiple rolls? Ide say thats a jackpot.

You cant keep adding cf when its got around a 30 percent chance to work. lol Thats hardly even worth mentioning if you wont allow for nid shooting, tervigons or any of the nids possibles.

With SitW you do no have cf 100 percent. Youre also lucky if doom doesnt kill a few with all the silly drop pod shenanigans.

And if your running one of the small squads in razorbacks you may have no chance of survivors. So my point is gk are not op espeacially if they run into issues concerning their psy powers.

Tomb King wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

daedalus wrote:
Yeah, they have a lot of stuff to put psykers in their place, however, it's not like that's an issue in every game. You're probably not willfully running your Farseer/Libby into melee combat. The mindstrike missiles are nasty, but they're useless if your opponent can keep his psyker in a transport.

The new basic rulebook FAQ hurts psykers. Unless it is a shooting attack... being in the transport makes that psyker ineffective for buffs and non shooting effects.

Incorrect Tomb King. Reread the FAQ. There is a section that counter acts that.

Which section is it if you dont mind me asking as currently my PBS is just about worthless in my mech build IG.

Your killing me Tomb King now I had to go all the way downstairs find it on my computer because I couldn't copy and paste it from my Ipad >.<

It is in the BRB FAQ right under psykers second page.

Psykers
Q: Can a model use a psychic power that is not a
Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a transport
vehicle? (p50)
A: Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is still
worked out from the vehicle’s fire points (this will
count as one model shooting through that fire point if
the power is used in the Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight and
has a range or an area of effect that is normally
measured from the model using it, these are measured
from the vehicle’s hull, as explained in the Embarking
section on page 66.

Tomb King wrote:

Dok wrote:Psycannons are pretty good at a lot of things. But they are not reliable in the way that bringing the right gun for the right problem is.

So what your saying is they are a better all comers weapon, but not a better specialized weapon? Isnt this game all about finding things that can fill multiple rolls? Ide say thats a jackpot.

It's better at some things, but not reliable for other things. Let me tell you, after having played grey knights for the better part of this year, those rends don't come when you need them. They do what they want! People can spout numbers about how it's better at killing land raiders, but I have never killed one with a psycannon.
And finding things that fill multiple rolls is one way to play. Finding things that excel at one thing and then making a balanced army filling holes to deal with different problems is another.

Dok wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Dok wrote:Psycannons are pretty good at a lot of things. But they are not reliable in the way that bringing the right gun for the right problem is.

So what your saying is they are a better all comers weapon, but not a better specialized weapon? Isnt this game all about finding things that can fill multiple rolls? Ide say thats a jackpot.

It's better at some things, but not reliable for other things. Let me tell you, after having played grey knights for the better part of this year, those rends don't come when you need them. They do what they want! People can spout numbers about how it's better at killing land raiders, but I have never killed one with a psycannon.
And finding things that fill multiple rolls is one way to play. Finding things that excel at one thing and then making a balanced army filling holes to deal with different problems is another.

What you are saying DoK is anecdotal and that is your experience. That being said math supports what others are saying the Psycannon is one of the best weapons in the game because of how many shots it has. The Str 7 with Rending puts it over the top of any one shot melta gun even against most AV's. That and you can scale 4 cannons in some units instead of two melta guns its a far superior weapon to anything in the game. That is before you look into factors like range and dealing with large numbers in a single unit.

They should have kept the psycannon at Str 6 rending or left it at str 7 without rending.

Darkwynn wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

daedalus wrote:
Yeah, they have a lot of stuff to put psykers in their place, however, it's not like that's an issue in every game. You're probably not willfully running your Farseer/Libby into melee combat. The mindstrike missiles are nasty, but they're useless if your opponent can keep his psyker in a transport.

The new basic rulebook FAQ hurts psykers. Unless it is a shooting attack... being in the transport makes that psyker ineffective for buffs and non shooting effects.

Incorrect Tomb King. Reread the FAQ. There is a section that counter acts that.

Which section is it if you dont mind me asking as currently my PBS is just about worthless in my mech build IG.

Your killing me Tomb King now I had to go all the way downstairs find it on my computer because I couldn't copy and paste it from my Ipad >.<

It is in the BRB FAQ right under psykers second page.

Psykers
Q: Can a model use a psychic power that is not a
Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a transport
vehicle? (p50)
A: Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is still
worked out from the vehicle’s fire points (this will
count as one model shooting through that fire point if
the power is used in the Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight and
has a range or an area of effect that is normally
measured from the model using it, these are measured
from the vehicle’s hull, as explained in the Embarking
section on page 66.

Thanks man I didnt see that originally when I looked over it. They might have revised it or I am just blind. Sorry about the whole killing you thing. Didnt think I was gonna be killing anyone when I woke up this morning .

I'm fully aware. I wasn't presenting my experience playing as something that everyone should follow. I was just lamenting my luck.
Only 3 units can have 4 psycannons and they are all expensive, and in a heavily competed for slot. If you want to use relative arguments, then C:SM can field multiple 10 man squads with twinlinked melta guns that can deep strike to within 6" of your priority targets and have a low chance of scattering. You'll notice that in your statement and in my statement, there are a lot of facts missing.

I'm not really interested in shoulds. Like I said earlier in this thread, if you intend to play competitive 40k, then you need to adapt to the units and tactics of all armies that GW has published. If you don't, that's no ones fault but your own.

Draigo wrote:You cant keep adding cf when its got around a 30 percent chance to work. lol Thats hardly even worth mentioning if you wont allow for nid shooting, tervigons or any of the nids possibles.

With SitW you do no have cf 100 percent. Youre also lucky if doom doesnt kill a few with all the silly drop pod shenanigans.

And if your running one of the small squads in razorbacks you may have no chance of survivors. So my point is gk are not op espeacially if they run into issues concerning their psy powers.

That is assuming you have SitW within 12" of those psykers. So assuming he is that close then it is around 30-40% success rate. If your 100+ shots you can have per turn with an all out purifier build leaves something with SitW that is that close still alive then it would be safe to not count CF.

100+ shots?

3 dreads=12
40 purifiers = 80 shots? only 16 per round in rhinos

So for your 100 shots your walking?? Otherwise it looks more like around 30

gendoikari87 wrote:

The average leadership check on 3d6 is 10.5

um.... No, Average is 7. There are 36 combinations of 2 die, and only 4 tie or beat 10....

Edit: oh, 3d6, sorry. Small screen, I thought it said 2d6.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

and the odds of double 1s or double 6s is rather high (there's what, 16 instances each out of 216? So 1/6th chance)

1/36 for both.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
here's the chart

[BIG ASS CHART]

That chart doesn't work for 3d6. This does:

[6,6,6]
[1,6,6][2,6,6][3,6,6][4,6,6][5,6,6]
[6,1,6][6,2,6][6,3,6][6,4,6][6,5,6]
[6,6,1][6,6,2][6,6,3][6,6,4][6,6,5]

16 unique ways to get double 6s and the same for 1s. Add them together and you get 36. 36 out of 216 possibilities is 1/6th.

Draigo, I really don't get your point about the Knight of flame... he's automatically included. And I never mentioned purifiers. It's like you're making a strawman argument.

I also pointed out that psychic powers will still go off 40% of the time under shadow. A melta from a marine penetrates 38.89% of the time. It's really not as bad as you think.

Dok, I feel for you. My luck sucks too. Cept for that week when I kept rolling quad 6s on my assault cannons against land raiders. Good times... But odds state a probability of something happening. My predators improbably suck with las cannons. That doesn't mean it can't happen or doesn't.

This is how I would run my Grey Knights.

10 man Strike Squad
psybolt ammo
2 psycannon
rhino
justicar with master crafted thunderhammer
275 points

That's about 10-20 points more than I spend on a tac squad usually and I don't particularly need the master crafted, it's just nice to have.

10 tactical marines
melta + lascannon or plasma gun + cannon
sarge with powerfist and combiweap
razorback
255 (270 if I throw in extra armor) or 240 if you go flamer + missile

This is why I don't think it's such a drastic thing to compare the two. They wind up being very close in points.

Draigo wrote:100+ shots?

3 dreads=12
40 purifiers = 80 shots? only 16 per round in rhinos

So for your 100 shots your walking?? Otherwise it looks more like around 30

I said a full build aka 6 squads of purifiers can put out 4x4= 16 x 6 = 96. So for 1830 you can shoot up to 96 psycannon shots per turn.

They might be overpowered and all with 2 wound termies. However, I have played blood angels recently, and all those feel no pain roles are just crazy to go against.

Tomb King wrote:

Draigo wrote:100+ shots?

3 dreads=12
40 purifiers = 80 shots? only 16 per round in rhinos

So for your 100 shots your walking?? Otherwise it looks more like around 30

I said a full build aka 6 squads of purifiers can put out 4x4= 16 x 6 = 96. So for 1830 you can shoot up to 96 psycannon shots per turn.

Thats not moving sooo your waiting for them to come within 24 in.. not really sure thats a good idea if they drop pod in something like doom or outflank but ok. Doesnt really make you op.. just dangerous in a corner. lol

Draigo wrote:

Tomb King wrote:

Draigo wrote:100+ shots?

3 dreads=12
40 purifiers = 80 shots? only 16 per round in rhinos

So for your 100 shots your walking?? Otherwise it looks more like around 30

I said a full build aka 6 squads of purifiers can put out 4x4= 16 x 6 = 96. So for 1830 you can shoot up to 96 psycannon shots per turn.

Thats not moving sooo your waiting for them to come within 24 in.. not really sure thats a good idea if they drop pod in something like doom or outflank but ok. Doesnt really make you op.. just dangerous in a corner. lol

Ya, its 48 if you advance on turn 1. The sick part is its only worth 7 kp. If your playing annihilation there is a chance you could auto-draw at the worst after turn 1.

@Janthkin Unfort about every 5 arent. Up hill battle for the ods to be sure.

@tombking So youre proposing 4 per squad and then disembarking? Hhhmm while thats lots of shots Idk if Id want them hoppin out unless they had to OR shooting at something lacking strong guns.

Draigo wrote:@Janthkin Unfort about every 5 arent. Up hill battle for the ods to be sure.

@tombking So youre proposing 4 per squad and then disembarking? Hhhmm while thats lots of shots Idk if Id want them hoppin out unless they had to OR shooting at something lacking strong guns.

IF i were to ever play with grey knights and pruifier spam I would go:

Crowe

5 units of 10 with 4 psy each (no transports)

3 Heavy Dreads with Twin-link AC with Psybolt ammo

It would add 2 kill points making it 9 total but would make the list more resilient. The above list is for 2k points and I personally wouldnt want to play it or against it. 92 shots or 52 shots per turn(12 being S8)

Tomb King wrote:

Draigo wrote:You cant keep adding cf when its got around a 30 percent chance to work. lol Thats hardly even worth mentioning if you wont allow for nid shooting, tervigons or any of the nids possibles.

With SitW you do no have cf 100 percent. Youre also lucky if doom doesnt kill a few with all the silly drop pod shenanigans.

And if your running one of the small squads in razorbacks you may have no chance of survivors. So my point is gk are not op espeacially if they run into issues concerning their psy powers.

That is assuming you have SitW within 12" of those psykers. So assuming he is that close then it is around 30-40% success rate. If your 100+ shots you can have per turn with an all out purifier build leaves something with SitW that is that close still alive then it would be safe to not count CF.

If you don't have SitW at the point in which that you get assaulted by Purifiers, you've done something wrong. I play Nids, and I'm remarkably good at it, at least within the local meta. I'll happily submit to a 40% chance to lose half my squad of gaunts when the alternative is that you lose a Purifier.