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Tomb King wrote:

Draigo wrote:@Janthkin Unfort about every 5 arent. Up hill battle for the ods to be sure.

@tombking So youre proposing 4 per squad and then disembarking? Hhhmm while thats lots of shots Idk if Id want them hoppin out unless they had to OR shooting at something lacking strong guns.

IF i were to ever play with grey knights and pruifier spam I would go:

Crowe

5 units of 10 with 4 psy each (no transports)

3 Heavy Dreads with Twin-link AC with Psybolt ammo

It would add 2 kill points making it 9 total but would make the list more resilient. The above list is for 2k points and I personally wouldnt want to play it or against it. 92 shots or 52 shots per turn(12 being S8)

I'd maybe think of dropping 1 squad so you can get halberds and add techmarines w/funny 'nades to a couple units, just to make it even more insane...
Costs you some shots, but those grenades can and will win assault all on their own.

Like any list that's centered on spaming a single unit, it's gimmicky and has it's bad match-ups. But against alot of lists it'll be brutal, especially if you go first & get a good first round of shooting that removes key elements of your opponent's army.

Tank shocks :(

Surtur wrote:Dok, I feel for you. My luck sucks too. Cept for that week when I kept rolling quad 6s on my assault cannons against land raiders. Good times... But odds state a probability of something happening. My predators improbably suck with las cannons. That doesn't mean it can't happen or doesn't.

This is how I would run my Grey Knights.

10 man Strike Squad
psybolt ammo
2 psycannon
rhino
justicar with master crafted thunderhammer
275 points

That's about 10-20 points more than I spend on a tac squad usually and I don't particularly need the master crafted, it's just nice to have.

10 tactical marines
melta + lascannon or plasma gun + cannon
sarge with powerfist and combiweap
razorback
255 (270 if I throw in extra armor) or 240 if you go flamer + missile

This is why I don't think it's such a drastic thing to compare the two. They wind up being very close in points.

I have the same problem with predators... Stupid things.

But your strike squad above is about 20 points shy of the actual cost. It should be 295 as listed. It's been a while since I have run a tactical squad, but I never put power fists on them. Combi's for sure...

But that's to each person's taste. I was trying to make the point that if you took an equal point value of tac marines to purifiers you have an almost as effective force. It's the supporting units that make the difference. Especially in the C:SM book. No one has ever won the a game on the back of their all tac marine list. And regardless of the posts above, no one has ever won a game on the back of their all strike squad or purifier list.

But your strike squad above is about 20 points shy of the actual cost. It should be 295 as listed. It's been a while since I have run a tactical squad, but I never put power fists on them. Combi's for sure...

What do you do when you're touched by a monstrous creature or vehicle or your combi fails? A tac squad without a fist is even more of a waste of points than normal. It's like the only tooth in that waste of space units mouth. It's also the only thing making them even remotely capable of not losing every round of combat against every other MEQ unit in the game every turn.

25 points for a fist is junk. If you're facing a Fex and the like you're screwed anyway. There's no point trying to make tacts less trash in combat since they won't win against anything worth fighting even with a fist.

Theduke07 wrote:25 points for a fist is junk. If you're facing a Fex and the like you're screwed anyway.

A 10 man tac squad will kill the carnifex with average rolls over a few turns. They win. Fexes have a low volume of throughput on their attacks and the fist averages .83 wounds a turn. In isolation in 2,5 full turns the fex will be gone.

ShumaGorath wrote:

But your strike squad above is about 20 points shy of the actual cost. It should be 295 as listed. It's been a while since I have run a tactical squad, but I never put power fists on them. Combi's for sure...

What do you do when you're touched by a monstrous creature or vehicle or your combi fails? A tac squad without a fist is even more of a waste of points than normal. It's like the only tooth in that waste of space units mouth. It's also the only thing making them even remotely capable of not losing every round of combat against every other MEQ unit in the game every turn.

I agree with you, but thats really a different topic that deserves its own thread

as far as the fist goes... its way less effective at killing MCs than a force weapon that EVERY GK has

If I was a GK player.. I'd argue that they aren't OP... since I am not... they are OP. That is all.

Dok wrote:
I have the same problem with predators... Stupid things.

But your strike squad above is about 20 points shy of the actual cost. It should be 295 as listed. It's been a while since I have run a tactical squad, but I never put power fists on them. Combi's for sure...

But that's to each person's taste. I was trying to make the point that if you took an equal point value of tac marines to purifiers you have an almost as effective force. It's the supporting units that make the difference. Especially in the C:SM book. No one has ever won the a game on the back of their all tac marine list. And regardless of the posts above, no one has ever won a game on the back of their all strike squad or purifier list.

I must have forgotten to add the psybolt ammo or psycannon cost.

I run fists because like other people have said, sometimes you wiff and need to go in to finish what you started. It's why I put the Thammer in the strike squad, it's insurance. Sometimes the dreadnaught refuses to die and engages the squad, the fist helps fight it off.

I understand that these are just a small part of an army, but it gets really hard to look at these similar base units, who fill similar roles, to say that the wargear and abilities are beyond what the other gets. Then to have such a small difference in cost. It seems hard for me to believe that there isn't codex creep or simple overpowering going on.

Those are valid point's but I still wouldn't take a fist on tac marines. As far as I see it, they are supposed to be survivable scoring units that are relatively cheap and provide a bit of fire support. They are not CC all stars. Pumping up their point cost with a fist seems like a waste to me as well. More often than not, you may get 1 wound with it per turn. Most MCs will tear through you much faster than that. Especially if you have combat squadded.

As Shuma points out in regards to the power fist in CC

not losing every round of combat against every other MEQ unit in the game every turn

, tacs are terrible in combat. Paying 25 points to get them statistically one unsaved wound at the end of I seems wasteful. Also, you are correct in your assertion that they will lose to every othe MEQ unit in the game. Is that a problem with Grey Knights being OP or a problem with Tacs being not very good for their cost? I would tend to lean towards the latter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Surtur wrote:

I must have forgotten to add the psybolt ammo or psycannon cost.

I run fists because like other people have said, sometimes you wiff and need to go in to finish what you started. It's why I put the Thammer in the strike squad, it's insurance. Sometimes the dreadnaught refuses to die and engages the squad, the fist helps fight it off.

I understand that these are just a small part of an army, but it gets really hard to look at these similar base units, who fill similar roles, to say that the wargear and abilities are beyond what the other gets. Then to have such a small difference in cost. It seems hard for me to believe that there isn't codex creep or simple overpowering going on.

Ya, no worries. I fully support a fist in a unit more dedicated to combat. That way your unit has the ability to put some hurt on the opponent before you get to I1. Otherwise you are just wasting attacks that could be used to weaken whatever unit you are in CC with. I would consider a power sword on the tac SGT. But only if I had extra points.

The other option for Tacticals is to forego the fist in favor of being able to use Combat Tactics to try to escape from a combat you're losing. If you counter-charge with a dreadnought, you can even lock down the enemy unit so they can't pursue the fleeing Tacticals.

frgsinwntr wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

But your strike squad above is about 20 points shy of the actual cost. It should be 295 as listed. It's been a while since I have run a tactical squad, but I never put power fists on them. Combi's for sure...

What do you do when you're touched by a monstrous creature or vehicle or your combi fails? A tac squad without a fist is even more of a waste of points than normal. It's like the only tooth in that waste of space units mouth. It's also the only thing making them even remotely capable of not losing every round of combat against every other MEQ unit in the game every turn.

I agree with you, but thats really a different topic that deserves its own thread

as far as the fist goes... its way less effective at killing MCs than a force weapon that EVERY GK has

Yep, for 25 points you CAN kill a carnifex with a power fist in 2-3 turns. Carnifex on average can only kill 2 MEQ per turn
Of course its situational, about against MC heavy army ( every army has some I guess ) the 25pts can be worth it very fast.

GK + Hammer Hand + Force Weapon can potentially kill a Carnifex in 1 turn.

Another reason why GK are so OP : )

Take note you can beat GK it just usually takes some crazy stuff aka a techmarine tripping on some medal and dying when he is about to wreck your front lines with assassins. On another note I have no solution for dread spam GK. I cant match that amount of fire-power with most of the armies I own, especially for the same low point cost .

Tomb King wrote: Take note you can beat GK it just usually takes some crazy stuff aka a techmarine tripping on some medal and dying when he is about to wreck your front lines with assassins. On another note I have no solution for dread spam GK. I cant match that amount of fire-power with most of the armies I own, especially for the same low point cost .

After having much experience in both IG and GK, I can say that imperial guard can outmatch that firepower for less. Squad of 2 hydra will blow a psyfleman off the table easy. Psyflemen become useless if not facing the right opponents either. They are not the godlike unit that can beat anything everyone seems to think they are. Sure their awesome against transports and monstrous creatures...sometimes, but what else they gonna do?

Jaon wrote:

Tomb King wrote: Take note you can beat GK it just usually takes some crazy stuff aka a techmarine tripping on some medal and dying when he is about to wreck your front lines with assassins. On another note I have no solution for dread spam GK. I cant match that amount of fire-power with most of the armies I own, especially for the same low point cost .

After having much experience in both IG and GK, I can say that imperial guard can outmatch that firepower for less. Squad of 2 hydra will blow a psyfleman off the table easy. Psyflemen become useless if not facing the right opponents either. They are not the godlike unit that can beat anything everyone seems to think they are. Sure their awesome against transports and monstrous creatures...sometimes, but what else they gonna do?

Nooooooo, a well thought out and reasonable response. Get out of here with your logic, im trying to be angry at toy soldiers.

Reality check the following books were way more overpowered during the following timeframes.

CSM 4th ed from the time of release until 5th ed IG came out.

WHFB chaos deamons during all of 7th ed

WHFB vampire counts during all of 7th ed

GK doesn't come anywhere near as close to those other 3 for being an overpowered army.

Jaon wrote:

Tomb King wrote: Take note you can beat GK it just usually takes some crazy stuff aka a techmarine tripping on some medal and dying when he is about to wreck your front lines with assassins. On another note I have no solution for dread spam GK. I cant match that amount of fire-power with most of the armies I own, especially for the same low point cost .

After having much experience in both IG and GK, I can say that imperial guard can outmatch that firepower for less. Squad of 2 hydra will blow a psyfleman off the table easy. Psyflemen become useless if not facing the right opponents either. They are not the godlike unit that can beat anything everyone seems to think they are. Sure their awesome against transports and monstrous creatures...sometimes, but what else they gonna do?

Eidolon wrote:

Jaon wrote:

Tomb King wrote: Take note you can beat GK it just usually takes some crazy stuff aka a techmarine tripping on some medal and dying when he is about to wreck your front lines with assassins. On another note I have no solution for dread spam GK. I cant match that amount of fire-power with most of the armies I own, especially for the same low point cost .

After having much experience in both IG and GK, I can say that imperial guard can outmatch that firepower for less. Squad of 2 hydra will blow a psyfleman off the table easy. Psyflemen become useless if not facing the right opponents either. They are not the godlike unit that can beat anything everyone seems to think they are. Sure their awesome against transports and monstrous creatures...sometimes, but what else they gonna do?

Nooooooo, a well thought out and reasonable response. Get out of here with your logic, im trying to be angry at toy soldiers.

Alright we have figured it out guys. One codex can match there dreads point for point these guys cant be over-powered now. Thanks for saving us some heart ache guys we had quite a debate before those comments with logic showed up.

Only thing is hydra's take up a much need heavy support slot, cant be used as an elite as well and sure as hell cant get venerable. Not to mention that SA:10. Sure if I could pick I would take 2 hydra over a heavy support dread with TL auto cannons. However, if I could get the venerable version with aegis and a psychic pilot I would gladly take that over 3 hydra's.

Tomb King wrote:

Jaon wrote:

Tomb King wrote: Take note you can beat GK it just usually takes some crazy stuff aka a techmarine tripping on some medal and dying when he is about to wreck your front lines with assassins. On another note I have no solution for dread spam GK. I cant match that amount of fire-power with most of the armies I own, especially for the same low point cost .

After having much experience in both IG and GK, I can say that imperial guard can outmatch that firepower for less. Squad of 2 hydra will blow a psyfleman off the table easy. Psyflemen become useless if not facing the right opponents either. They are not the godlike unit that can beat anything everyone seems to think they are. Sure their awesome against transports and monstrous creatures...sometimes, but what else they gonna do?

Eidolon wrote:

Jaon wrote:

Tomb King wrote: Take note you can beat GK it just usually takes some crazy stuff aka a techmarine tripping on some medal and dying when he is about to wreck your front lines with assassins. On another note I have no solution for dread spam GK. I cant match that amount of fire-power with most of the armies I own, especially for the same low point cost .

After having much experience in both IG and GK, I can say that imperial guard can outmatch that firepower for less. Squad of 2 hydra will blow a psyfleman off the table easy. Psyflemen become useless if not facing the right opponents either. They are not the godlike unit that can beat anything everyone seems to think they are. Sure their awesome against transports and monstrous creatures...sometimes, but what else they gonna do?

Nooooooo, a well thought out and reasonable response. Get out of here with your logic, im trying to be angry at toy soldiers.

Alright we have figured it out guys. One codex can match there dreads point for point these guys cant be over-powered now. Thanks for saving us some heart ache guys we had quite a debate before those comments with logic showed up.

Only thing is hydra's take up a much need heavy support slot, cant be used as an elite as well and sure as hell cant get venerable. Not to mention that SA:10. Sure if I could pick I would take 2 hydra over a heavy support dread with TL auto cannons. However, if I could get the venerable version with aegis and a psychic pilot I would gladly take that over 3 hydra's.

What do you need those much need heavy support slots for? Manticores and Hydras? You also seem to forget its fairly easy to prevent side armor with well positioned hydras via vehicle squadron rules

schadenfreude wrote:Reality check the following books were way more overpowered during the following timeframes.

CSM 4th ed from the time of release until 5th ed IG came out.

WHFB chaos deamons during all of 7th ed

WHFB vampire counts during all of 7th ed

GK doesn't come anywhere near as close to those other 3 for being an overpowered army.

I kind of have to agree with this. The WHFB 7th ed daemons and vampires were both still doing well at tournaments even very receently. I occasionally play a no-magic, khorne themed list and do pretty well with it, despite the fact that the book is several years old.

And I totally agree with the 3.5 ed 40K CSM book. Even now, two editions since that book came out, you could take that codex and make armies that would be competitive with any codex out there right now. The Iron Warriors, all infiltrating Alpha Legion, Daemon Bomb lists, Siren Prince lists, etc. could all perform well even today. Heck, today, one of the tougher lists is the "leaf blower IG." A pure Siren prince daaemon bomb army could ruin a leaf-blower's day.

Oh my, another whine post about GK. Can watch and see posts right here on dakka reports where GK loose. Some of them loose big. I think my next post should be ....how many whiners does it take to make hq change a codex? Or maybe, would you like some cheese with that whine? There is something about the smell of fresh whinning in the morning...the smell, the smell......of victory.

Devil Dog wrote:Oh my, another whine post about GK. Can watch and see posts right here on dakka reports where GK loose. Some of them loose big. I think my next post should be ....how many whiners does it take to make hq change a codex? Or maybe, would you like some cheese with that whine? There is something about the smell of fresh whinning in the morning...the smell, the smell......of victory.

It's very easy to see a post complaining about something you don't personally feel is an issue and dismiss it as just 'whining'. In that case, you're perfectly welcome to not participate in the thread. Posts like this add nothing constructive to the discussion.

GK player, I set my eyes to look for GK posts. Every other thread being a hate GK threads are not very constructive either. Gets old, just saying...if allowed without flaming in red.

There are a bunch of posts from people explaining why they think the way they do. Responding to some of the points people are making would be constructive. Telling people to just stop whining... not so much.

The way to counter the 'hate' is to provide a positive focus. Just expecting everyone to shut up because you're sick of hearing people complain is not going to lead you anywhere good.

GK have their strengths and weaknesses... I played against a GW's staff's Grey Knights list. It was pitched battle, objectives. I had three squads of plague marines and one squad khorne berserkers on foot, a dreadnought, daemon prince, chaos lord, defiler and predator. He had two ten-man grey knight terminator squads (not sure which kind), an interceptor squad, a land raider, two dreadknights. I absolutely anniahlated him; wiped him out.

Arm.chair.general wrote:GK have their strengths and weaknesses... I played against a GW's staff's Grey Knights list. It was pitched battle, objectives. I had three squads of plague marines and one squad khorne berserkers on foot, a dreadnought, daemon prince, chaos lord, defiler and predator. He had two ten-man grey knight terminator squads (not sure which kind), an interceptor squad, a land raider, two dreadknights. I absolutely anniahlated him; wiped him out.

I guess he played a Draigowing with lots(!) of Paladins. However, Blackmoor did very well with a Draigowing in a GT.

Devil Dog wrote:GK player, I set my eyes to look for GK posts. Every other thread being a hate GK threads are not very constructive either. Gets old, just saying...if allowed without flaming in red.

Welcome to forums, this is why i rarely post anymore.

schadenfreude wrote:Reality check the following books were way more overpowered during the following timeframes.

CSM 4th ed from the time of release until 5th ed IG came out.

WHFB chaos deamons during all of 7th ed

WHFB vampire counts during all of 7th ed

GK doesn't come anywhere near as close to those other 3 for being an overpowered army.

I'll agree about 7th ed WHFB daemons and VC. 8th ed intentionally nerfed VC in particular, but they were still decent... and daemons continue to be able to be extremely competitive. But in 7th they were absolutely unreal...

wuestenfux wrote:

Arm.chair.general wrote:GK have their strengths and weaknesses... I played against a GW's staff's Grey Knights list. It was pitched battle, objectives. I had three squads of plague marines and one squad khorne berserkers on foot, a dreadnought, daemon prince, chaos lord, defiler and predator. He had two ten-man grey knight terminator squads (not sure which kind), an interceptor squad, a land raider, two dreadknights. I absolutely anniahlated him; wiped him out.

I guess he played a Draigowing with lots(!) of Paladins. However, Blackmoor did very well with a Draigowing in a GT.

No way. That would be a 3K list if it was Draigowing! They're just regular terminators.

BTW, the GK general must be terribad. Can't believe he got tabled by your list.

GK is obviously a very good book, a hard army to beat. However, they are actually SOFTER, defensively, than regular SM. They die just as easy, if not easier, and have a low model count. Im not saying this is a total equalizer, but its something that can be capitalized on by an opponent.

LunaHound wrote:Yep, for 25 points you CAN kill a carnifex with a power fist in 2-3 turns. Carnifex on average can only kill 2 MEQ per turn
Of course its situational, about against MC heavy army ( every army has some I guess ) the 25pts can be worth it very fast.

GK + Hammer Hand + Force Weapon can potentially kill a Carnifex in 1 turn.

Another reason why GK are so OP : )

The Tacs can kill the Carnifex ... if all they're fighting is the Carnifex. What 'Nid player in his or her right mind would ever send a Carnifex against a power fist by itself? Fisty's just gonna be gibbing Termagants until the squad is dead, unless you do an amazing job positioning him.

To do Hammer Hand + Force Weapon, you need an IC in the squad, and any 'Nid player who charges a Carnifex into a unit of GKs (let alone with an IC) out of Synapse gets what he or she deserves.