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errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

Clearly you haven't been warp quaked yet...

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I play nids too. I win with nids against gk.

NeutronPoison wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Yep, for 25 points you CAN kill a carnifex with a power fist in 2-3 turns. Carnifex on average can only kill 2 MEQ per turn
Of course its situational, about against MC heavy army ( every army has some I guess ) the 25pts can be worth it very fast.

GK + Hammer Hand + Force Weapon can potentially kill a Carnifex in 1 turn.

Another reason why GK are so OP : )

The Tacs can kill the Carnifex ... if all they're fighting is the Carnifex. What 'Nid player in his or her right mind would ever send a Carnifex against a power fist by itself? Fisty's just gonna be gibbing Termagants until the squad is dead, unless you do an amazing job positioning him.

To do Hammer Hand + Force Weapon, you need an IC in the squad, and any 'Nid player who charges a Carnifex into a unit of GKs (let alone with an IC) out of Synapse gets what he or she deserves.

.....?

The powerfist was meant to be a back up. I never once said "give your tac squad a p fist and actively go monstrous creature hunting"

As in the other player will selectively weigh in the situation instead of happily swimming into your tac squad.

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

Dok wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

I think anyone can make an incredibly powerful army with just about any codex if they know what they are doing. I will never forget my first ard boys tourney. A orc player shoved deff rollers with force fields down everyone's throats, while eating us all with lootas. That army was killer, I thought a long while and came up with better tactics to face that army again. It made me a better player.

Again I played another guy who played de. Flicker fields and invuln saves on ships that so out numbered anything I could field with ultra marines. He kicked my teeth in. It was almost embarrassing because I was known at that store for not loosing. Rematch and he did it again. I had to really start thinking how I could beat him. Played a 1500 point tourney last month against him. Listened to what others said. I looked, read and learned. I beat him and won the tourney. Once again it made me a better player. I think differently than a lot of folks. When I play vs a killer force, I strive to ma


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Strive to become a better player. I think anyone can play their army right, make good choices for models. Make great moves and use their brains and beat any thing a GK player can bring. If you can't, its not the codex. It's not op. It's that you haven't given enough thought to your next move.

Devil Dog wrote:Strive to become a better player. I think anyone can play their army right, make good choices for models. Make great moves and use their brains and beat any thing a GK player can bring. If you can't, its not the codex. It's not op. It's that you haven't given enough thought to your next move.

What, pray tell, is the "next move" for a Daemon player against a Warp Quake-spamming GK player? Hope he fails the Quake psychic test? Make sure you go first?

My problem with the GK codex is that it is pre-loaded with counters to just about everything, and very few choices have to be made to include those counters. Lose Warp Quake, Sanctuary, Psychotroke Grenades, and Cleansing Flame, and charge about 10 pts more per vehicle to cover Fortitude, and it's closer to "extremely potent but reasonably fair" territory.

(On a fluff level, I still wonder why the Grey Knights are better equipped to go Xenos- and Witch-hunting than to fight daemons; what's with all the anti-psyker abilities?)

So you can't figure out a way to deepstrike 12 inches away from a troop choice and still be effective. That's IF he uses those models or enough of them. Been helping players build GK lists the last few weeks here. About 30% put out strike/interceptor squads. The most I've seen is three. That's hardly enough to spam a battlefield.

Can't deploy a list that can gun down purifiers 3+ vanilla armor saves? Really? And if he takes those vs the others as troops I guess he didn't do warp spam did he? I haven't seen a lot of people using the grenades, but sanctuary is a mainstay for libby. Can't say that I see your point as how it disputes mine. You should watch battle report GK vs demons. GK player uses purifiers and strike squads and still gets beat. And beat bad. I think the proof is in the pudding. And stand by my earlier post.

Devil Dog wrote:So you can't figure out a way to deepstrike 12 inches away from a troop choice and still be effective.

Erm, with scatter, you're pretty likely to wind up anywhere in a 5-9" band around where you place your models. So, really ... you have to Deep Strike about 21" away from Warp Quaking GKSS in order to feel safe. If it's pitched battle, that puts you...basically in a regular pitched battle deployment, only you only get half of your army, and you don't get to control where units go. I don't consider Codex: GKs overpowered for the most part, but Warp Quake really is basically an autolose for Daemons that go second.

Once again that's IF he puts out that many strike squads. If its a tourney I doubt he is humming for that. Too many other kool things to do with the codex than putting out 4+ strike squads. Seems to me to be too situational to be used much.

Devil Dog wrote:Once again that's IF he puts out that many strike squads. If its a tourney I doubt he is humming for that. Too many other kool things to do with the codex than putting out 4+ strike squads. Seems to me to be too situational to be used much.

This. Sure, Warp Quake is broken against Daemons, but anyone bringing enough Warp Quake to hamstring a Daemon player completely is likely hamstringing him/herself against other armies. List tailoring counters specific lists, more news at 11.

LunaHound wrote:

Dok wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

Hard to use that psyker power if the nid player spams mc and SotW outside of pally or Termies with banner which mean no hammer hand etc. So not that easy to insta gib Fexes if the nid player plans for psykers. Plus Doom can be a hassle if the nid player positions the spore properly. Just speaking from exp never take the nids that lightly with the new and improved shadow.

LunaHound wrote... The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

And yall say I trolled.

Devil Dog wrote:LunaHound wrote... The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

And yall say I trolled.

You ARE trolling! You're not supposed to attack posters in a proper argument, you're supposed to attack their arguments! Statements such as "oh they're just defending Grey Knights because they play them" does not add anything to the thread and are, quite frankly, rude. If the Grey Knights are so OP, prove it. Don't just dismiss everyone who doesn't agree with you in a completely BS fashion.

And I'm not basing my opinion on whether or not Grey Knights are OP on my performance, because I play a non-optimal list on purpose. I'm basing it on the fact that Grey Knights, despite being very well represented in a multitude of tournaments, hasn't exactly been dominating everyone else.

So i was interested in trying to figure out just how much coverage you'd get from warp quake, and how many squads you would need to "blanket the board" the answer is surprisingly few.

Diagram 1. Deployment. Pitched battle setup, with 10 GK interceptors or strikes deployed 2 inches apart as far forward as possible. Red = Warp quake area, yellow/orange is warp quake + 6" for a zone of "you can drop here, but have a good chance of mishap'ing into warp quake anyways", also shows 6" from the board edges, for risky deep-strike locations, Black area is off the board. Note, this doesn't include terrain, as that could screw over the strikes deployment, and make the demons/whomever even more restricted.
Grey Knights get first turn and advance 6"



Diagram 2. GKs get first turn and move 12" (via interceptors)



As you can see, even a single squad can make a colossal amount of 6x4 board risky to deepstrike onto. If you don't mind gambling, the yellow areas are semi-safe. God help you if you are playing on a 4x4 board thought.

I don't think this shows that Warp Quake is over-powered so much as it shows that Deep-strike is a friggin death trap and forcing it onto demons really screws them over with how it currently plays out.

@Carnage43

The orange bands should really be wider than 6", since there's a 21/36 chance of scattering 7" or more (15/36 chance of 8" or more, 10/36 chance of 9" or more). Granted, you've got that 1/3 chance of a hit, but that's still way too much chance of a mishap for me to feel comfortable.

And, yes, I agree, Daemons are crying out for something like Descent of Angels to make the deployment less of a clusterfeth for them.

Also, Strike Squads are not a bad Troops choice. A GKs army where the Troops section is entirely filled with Strikes is in no way gimped.

The first diagram is wrong, there's no Warp Quake if they don't get to cast Warp Quake, which they don't, since the Daemons go first in that example.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:The first diagram is wrong, there's no Warp Quake if they don't get to cast Warp Quake, which they don't, since the Daemons go first in that example.

Touche....will modify.

A lot of people in this thread have pointed to specific matchups to argue GK are not OP. And I think this is acually evidince of GK being OP.

What I mean is, GK are very beatable with most codex's if you tailor your lists to beat a particular GK build, (for instance I can beat purifier spam by spamming land raiders). But, if you have to list tailor you lose the ability to have a take all comers list against the other armies (LR spam is a joke to lance spam or melta vets). That's unfair and why GK are OP, they dominate most armies take all comer builds.

I think we should really wait for 6th edition before claiming Grey Knights are "broken" or whatever, since that is apparently the edition that they were primarily designed in light of. One interesting thing to note is that the "pancake edition" rumors massively nerf Grey Knights.

Fetterkey wrote:I think we should really wait for 6th edition before claiming Grey Knights are "broken" or whatever, since that is apparently the edition that they were primarily designed in light of. One interesting thing to note is that the "pancake edition" rumors massively nerf Grey Knights.

Uh, not really. GKs can keep mobile so they aren't hurt by EV, you get an extra attack for having an assault weapon and CCW instead of just a pistol, It's safer to deepstrike, including no scatter if you deepstrike 18'' away from any enemy (and most GK weapons are 24'') , Flamers get a whole lot better which makes the incinerator very powerful, and you can snipe melta gunner with any infantry, not just the vindicare.

The only thing they lost is being not shooting before assaulting (which everyone lost, but GK still have the range to hurt other assault units) and force weapons only taking off 2 wounds instead for insta-kill (which means they can still kill most non-MC multi-wound units, and since force weapons are Instant Death (2) they ignore eternal warrior)

Pony_law wrote:A lot of people in this thread have pointed to specific matchups to argue GK are not OP. And I think this is acually evidince of GK being OP.

What I mean is, GK are very beatable with most codex's if you tailor your lists to beat a particular GK build, (for instance I can beat purifier spam by spamming land raiders). But, if you have to list tailor you lose the ability to have a take all comers list against the other armies (LR spam is a joke to lance spam or melta vets). That's unfair and why GK are OP, they dominate most armies take all comer builds.

You dont have to tailor to kill gk. The armies that folks say are weak against gk include orkz, nids and daemons.

Daemons in the tournament scene almost all run fatecrusher before gk ever came out. Many of the gk best stuff like nfw dont have much effect to daemons. Yes daemons have a disadvantge but the lists havent changed much with the coming of gk.

Orkz who run 5 30 boyz squads with a kan wall ahead will give gk issues. That list existed before gk. Only list that may be hurt is nob bikerz.

Nids who screen trgons, tervigon etc isnt a new thing either. Look at janthkins list.. That has enough shadow in the warp, fnp, and cover saves to make many gk lists have major issues. They almost no way to ignore fnp with shooting and the mc have 6 wounds each so again didnt have to tailor. Try killing a trygon with no hammerhand, MoT etc. Not that simple..

NeutronPoison wrote:@Carnage43

The orange bands should really be wider than 6", since there's a 21/36 chance of scattering 7" or more (15/36 chance of 8" or more, 10/36 chance of 9" or more). Granted, you've got that 1/3 chance of a hit, but that's still way too much chance of a mishap for me to feel comfortable.

And, yes, I agree, Daemons are crying out for something like Descent of Angels to make the deployment less of a clusterfeth for them.

Also, Strike Squads are not a bad Troops choice. A GKs army where the Troops section is entirely filled with Strikes is in no way gimped.

I don't have any problems with my Daemons being forced to deploy via deep strike - except against 'Durp' Knights. It takes only 30 marines to completely lock off an entire 6'x4' board and force the Daemon player to roll a 'hit!' on the scatter dice or auto-mishap.
Sure in say a 1500pts game that's most of the GK army being restricted to strikes & interceptors, but when the average game size played tends to be 1750-2k+ points, it's pretty easy for any GK list to at least include a 10-man strike squad & 10-man 'ceptor squad. They're not bad choices in any way either, and they are murderous when included in something like a draigowing or henchman build.

People who say that Daemons problems lies with our deployment simply don't understand our army. Sure I'll *very* occasionally mishap if I'm being too agressive, but I'm *never* going to stand a chance of winning for example no matter how well I play when half my army refuses to turn up before turn 4!!!
I played an all Drop Troops IG list back during 4th ed, and the biggest nessessity for an all deep striking army is simple; I need a way to alter my reserve rolls to avoid coming in piecemeal and/or not getting any units into play in a timely manner!

If Daemons had something like an improved coms ability, it would do more for us than things like having a single unit capable of assaulting off the deep strike or only scattering D6"... Scattering less ala DoA for example is still pretty pants when we can't assault that turn AND have nothing like a melta that takes huge advantage of the reduced scatter.

Pony_law wrote:A lot of people in this thread have pointed to specific matchups to argue GK are not OP. And I think this is acually evidince of GK being OP.

What I mean is, GK are very beatable with most codex's if you tailor your lists to beat a particular GK build, (for instance I can beat purifier spam by spamming land raiders). But, if you have to list tailor you lose the ability to have a take all comers list against the other armies (LR spam is a joke to lance spam or melta vets). That's unfair and why GK are OP, they dominate most armies take all comer builds.

Except many of the things mentioned actually exist in all-comers lists. Torrent of fire shouldn't be hard for anyone to come by, not even Orks. Psychic defense is in pretty much any list that can take it (and yes, not having it sucks, I know). Draigostars are dealt with by having everything you have thrown at them, which is fine, because they're pretty damn expensive. As for the Psyflemen, AV12 isn't exactly stellar.

It's been said several times in this thread, but I'll say it again: They die like marines. They take a marine and crank his offensive potential up to 11, but he's still gonna die if you force saves on him, unless it's Draigowing. If it is, see above.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I think we should really wait for 6th edition before claiming Grey Knights are "broken" or whatever, since that is apparently the edition that they were primarily designed in light of. One interesting thing to note is that the "pancake edition" rumors massively nerf Grey Knights.

Uh, not really. GKs can keep mobile so they aren't hurt by EV, you get an extra attack for having an assault weapon and CCW instead of just a pistol, It's safer to deepstrike, including no scatter if you deepstrike 18'' away from any enemy (and most GK weapons are 24'') , Flamers get a whole lot better which makes the incinerator very powerful, and you can snipe melta gunner with any infantry, not just the vindicare.

The only thing they lost is being not shooting before assaulting (which everyone lost, but GK still have the range to hurt other assault units) and force weapons only taking off 2 wounds instead for insta-kill (which means they can still kill most non-MC multi-wound units, and since force weapons are Instant Death (2) they ignore eternal warrior)

And Purifying Flame getting nerfed.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Uh, not really. GKs can keep mobile so they aren't hurt by EV

On some units, yes. That said, the hulls they normally take don't benefit as much as others. For instance, the "psyback" doesn't benefit from tanks' superior ability to move and shoot. Further, Fortitude is far, far worse, as are walkers with two ranged weapons. Generally speaking Riflemen/Psyflemen really got the short end of the pancake edition stick.

Luke_Prowler wrote:you get an extra attack for having an assault weapon and CCW instead of just a pistol

Only on the charge.

Luke_Prowler wrote:It's safer to deepstrike, including no scatter if you deepstrike 18'' away from any enemy (and most GK weapons are 24'')

Sure, but GK don't benefit from this as much as others do.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Flamers get a whole lot better which makes the incinerator very powerful

This doesn't matter because the psycannon is still totally mandatory for anti-tank purposes.

Luke_Prowler wrote:and you can snipe melta gunner with any infantry, not just the vindicare.

In some cases, yes, but they can do the same and snipe your psycannons. I honestly think that change hurts GKs more than helps them, since GKs are extra reliant on psycannons to do the heavy lifting for them.

Luke_Prowler wrote:The only thing they lost is being not shooting before assaulting (which everyone lost, but GK still have the range to hurt other assault units) and force weapons only taking off 2 wounds instead for insta-kill (which means they can still kill most non-MC multi-wound units, and since force weapons are Instant Death (2) they ignore eternal warrior)

And Fortitude being good (Extra Armor is now far superior), and the general structure of their army working, and their psychic powers being hard to counter, and their ability to not lose valuable special models, and Draigowing... the list goes on and on.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And Purifying Flame getting nerfed.

Not really. Looking at the rules right now, Purifying Flame is now a Cleansing Smash attack (which can be found in the Unit Type chapter under Gargantum Creature) which gets an attack per each model engaging the unit. Since the engaging range is now 3'', that can still suck in a whole Ork mob. Yes, it is weaker in some cases, but it's still very powerful

(i'll get to Fetterkey later).

Draigo wrote:You dont have to tailor to kill gk. The armies that folks say are weak against gk include orkz, nids and daemons.

First off, sorry Pretre, I reported you to the mods accidentally. Testing buttons, noob.

After slogging through this thread trying to find references to GK vs. Necrons (damn it's long), wanted to ask y'all if they shouldn't be added to this "weak" list. Purely on the strength of the GK Stormravens.

(Greatly reduced effect of Glancing Hits due to Psychic Pilot/"Fortitude", coupled with increased implicit defense due to "Power of the Machine" (fire+get movement defensive save), long-range Mindstrike threat vs. Heavy Destroyers, near-invulnerability to primary Necron AT weapon Canoptic Scarabs again re: PotM.)

Working at Vigil, company doing 40k MMO, system engineer + gamer. This is research.

NeutronPoison wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Yep, for 25 points you CAN kill a carnifex with a power fist in 2-3 turns. Carnifex on average can only kill 2 MEQ per turn
Of course its situational, about against MC heavy army ( every army has some I guess ) the 25pts can be worth it very fast.

GK + Hammer Hand + Force Weapon can potentially kill a Carnifex in 1 turn.

Another reason why GK are so OP : )

The Tacs can kill the Carnifex ... if all they're fighting is the Carnifex. What 'Nid player in his or her right mind would ever send a Carnifex against a power fist by itself? Fisty's just gonna be gibbing Termagants until the squad is dead, unless you do an amazing job positioning him.

To do Hammer Hand + Force Weapon, you need an IC in the squad, and any 'Nid player who charges a Carnifex into a unit of GKs (let alone with an IC) out of Synapse gets what he or she deserves.

A lesson in why its important to always refuse to play grey knights players as MC tyranids? An object lesson in the fundamental imbalance inherent to a codex where every single model has a power weapon and the ability to instakill any multiwound model (thus invalidating the defensive measures of armor saves and multiple wounds and making it incredibly difficult for armies reliant on such to remain competitive in the same environment)?

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Dok wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

Hard to use that psyker power if the nid player spams mc and SotW outside of pally or Termies with banner which mean no hammer hand etc. So not that easy to insta gib Fexes if the nid player plans for psykers. Plus Doom can be a hassle if the nid player positions the spore properly. Just speaking from exp never take the nids that lightly with the new and improved shadow.

Why do you insist and persist on needing Hammer Hand to kill monstrous creatures? str 4 can wound even up to T7, as long as 6 is rolled.
GK will mostly strike first, hitting on 3s, which means 13.3 hits, which means 2 wounds gets through.
Nemesis Force Weapon, DEAD monstrous creature.

ShumaGorath wrote:

NeutronPoison wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Yep, for 25 points you CAN kill a carnifex with a power fist in 2-3 turns. Carnifex on average can only kill 2 MEQ per turn
Of course its situational, about against MC heavy army ( every army has some I guess ) the 25pts can be worth it very fast.

GK + Hammer Hand + Force Weapon can potentially kill a Carnifex in 1 turn.

Another reason why GK are so OP : )

The Tacs can kill the Carnifex ... if all they're fighting is the Carnifex. What 'Nid player in his or her right mind would ever send a Carnifex against a power fist by itself? Fisty's just gonna be gibbing Termagants until the squad is dead, unless you do an amazing job positioning him.

To do Hammer Hand + Force Weapon, you need an IC in the squad, and any 'Nid player who charges a Carnifex into a unit of GKs (let alone with an IC) out of Synapse gets what he or she deserves.

A lesson in why its important to always refuse to play grey knights players as MC tyranids? An object lesson in the fundamental imbalance inherent to a codex where every single model has a power weapon and the ability to instakill any multiwound model?

Exactly, now i feel like im miss reading the rule or something? Why is hammer hand brought up over and over again from those defending GK being O\P?
As far as I know, str 4 is all it takes to wound. Its not like we are rolling against vehicle penetration.