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LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Dok wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

Hard to use that psyker power if the nid player spams mc and SotW outside of pally or Termies with banner which mean no hammer hand etc. So not that easy to insta gib Fexes if the nid player plans for psykers. Plus Doom can be a hassle if the nid player positions the spore properly. Just speaking from exp never take the nids that lightly with the new and improved shadow.

Why do you insist and persist on needing Hammer Hand to kill monstrous creatures? str 4 can wound even up to T7, as long as 6 is rolled.
GK will mostly strike first, hitting on 3s, which means 13.3 hits, which means 2 wounds gets through.
Nemesis Force Weapon, DEAD monstrous creature.

Well it depends on your squad size and weapons. 5 strike, purifier, and non terminator will die if charged by a trygon. It's not as easy as one wound one dead. You have to wound and make the 3d6 psy test as well as wound.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Dok wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

Hard to use that psyker power if the nid player spams mc and SotW outside of pally or Termies with banner which mean no hammer hand etc. So not that easy to insta gib Fexes if the nid player plans for psykers. Plus Doom can be a hassle if the nid player positions the spore properly. Just speaking from exp never take the nids that lightly with the new and improved shadow.

Why do you insist and persist on needing Hammer Hand to kill monstrous creatures? str 4 can wound even up to T7, as long as 6 is rolled.
GK will mostly strike first, hitting on 3s, which means 13.3 hits, which means 2 wounds gets through.
Nemesis Force Weapon, DEAD monstrous creature.

Well it depends on your squad size and weapons. 5 strike, purifier, and non terminator will die if charged by a trygon. It's not as easy as one wound one dead. You have to wound and make the 3d6 psy test as well as wound.

They have far better odds than almost any other similarly costed unit in the game.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Dok wrote:

Redaxe13 wrote:errrr... 90% of people here who are saying GK aren't op are GK players. I think this thread may be a LITTLE biased.. lol I only play Demons and I don't think they're that op.. Not like unstoppable OP. Maybe slightly broken. I dunno, I'll decide once I play as GK I'd feel ok calling them op then

I feel that 90% of the people saying GK are OP in this thread haven't played against GK.

The GK players that are saying GK arnt oP, check their army lists....

Anyone can build a totally ineffective list and say they lose all the time hence not OP.

But what OP should encompass is what abusive capabilities can it have.

Hard to use that psyker power if the nid player spams mc and SotW outside of pally or Termies with banner which mean no hammer hand etc. So not that easy to insta gib Fexes if the nid player plans for psykers. Plus Doom can be a hassle if the nid player positions the spore properly. Just speaking from exp never take the nids that lightly with the new and improved shadow.

Why do you insist and persist on needing Hammer Hand to kill monstrous creatures? str 4 can wound even up to T7, as long as 6 is rolled.
GK will mostly strike first, hitting on 3s, which means 13.3 hits, which means 2 wounds gets through.
Nemesis Force Weapon, DEAD monstrous creature.

Well it depends on your squad size and weapons. 5 strike, purifier, and non terminator will die if charged by a trygon. It's not as easy as one wound one dead. You have to wound and make the 3d6 psy test as well as wound.

Here is what I need you to do.
Take out the Tyranid Codex
Look how many multi wound creatures there are in the codex
Look how many of those have shadows in the warp
Calculate a % and get back to me.

All your samples so far in your argument is all the same.
You use Trygon, an apex of Tyranid MWC and base all your counter argument with that and that alone.

IF Tyranid MWC are ALL LIKE TRYGONs, i will accept it. But knowing Tyranids, I know the rest of them are nothing like Trygons.
So again, please refer to the list of what I want you to do, or else this debate is 100% biased and pointless.

ShumaGorath wrote:They have far better odds than almost any other similarly costed unit in the game.

Not to mention their psybolt shots that are str 5. That effectively give them the str to cause penetration on vehicles.

Draigo, I know you have issues dealing with enemy AV, do you really think your psyffleman is the most effective against AV 14?
No, its beacuse you only take 2 psycannon instead of 4 per squad. You can double your firepower.

Call me a fortune teller, but I think you'll think you GK are alot stronger after you do that minor change.

Tyranid MCs, with the exception of the Trygon (and even the Trygon, really) are not meant to take on entire units in close combat unsupported.

As a Tyranid player, if you're doing it right, your MCs never get charged. Why? There are Termagants in the way. If you're doing it right, your MCs never get attacked by more than one guy with a Force Weapon. Why? The other guys with Force Weapons are in base-to-base contact with Termagants (or Hormagaunts, or Gargoyles). You always make sure that you're within 12" of a Synapse creature before engaging GKs. Your advantage is cheap bodies, which you can use to manipulate your opponent's attacks in assault, and deny movement and charges.

Honestly, GKs were a breath of fresh air after SW and DE, both of which were absolute punches in the gut for 'Nids.

Yeah, because getting vaped by force weapons is so much more fun than taking a billion fearless saves when the cleansing flame and choppy halberds rack up tons of free combat resolution on the guants......

I am not in the GK overpowered camp and firmly believe that Cheese Wolves are the most broken book, but I would never ever prefer to face GK with my Nids over SW or DE. There is just literally nothing you can do against any variation of that book as a Nid player that does not end in tears.

Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

If you're that worried about GKs, keep a Broodlord around for Aura of Despair. SitW plus Aura of Despair keeps Cleansing Flame pretty much locked down.

Nothing in Codex: GKs comes close to Jaws of the World Wolf, or watching 9 Hive Guard evaporate to 9 Venoms worth of shooting on Turn 1.

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Flaw in first point: You don't get FNP with gaunts or gargoyles against Psycannons as psycannons' strength is double their toughness.

Flaw in second point: You have a banner; SitW negated automatically.

Flaw in third point: Most gribblies don't get FNP against psycannons, Toughness 6 is irrelevant with hammerhand / might of titan / rad grenades combo, and yes, the single tyranid unit with a 3++ is moderately effective against GK.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Flaw in first point: You don't get FNP with gaunts or gargoyles against Psycannons as psycannons' strength is double their toughness.

Flaw in second point: You have a banner; SitW negated automatically.

Flaw in third point: Most gribblies don't get FNP against psycannons, Toughness 6 is irrelevant with hammerhand / might of titan / rad grenades combo, and yes, the single tyranid unit with a 3++ is moderately effective against GK.

First doesnt matter cause not likely to kill an entire squad which you can run in to stop their shooting unless a 10 man squad. You kill guants tervigons can replenish that in a turn.

2nd banner only helps squad of terminators or pallys to activate their force weapon at str 4 no other powers. So may or may not work.. Against most the army doing 1 wound is irrelevant since you lack enough cc attacks to kill them since your shooting was ineffective. Now if you spam psycanons to make the shooting worthwhile you have effectively reduced your attacks to a pitful amount vs 15+ gaunts made from tervigons and ones that started the game. Banner for the terminators unless in a squad over 5 doesnt help much vs hordes but does give you a chance to kill a big creature.

3rd SitW makes the psy powers less reliable and it can be spammed throughout the army. Now run that unit into swarmlord with a retinue and you are ws 1 tryng to hit a 9 at a lower I. While engaged use doom to leech off wounds.

So no its not clear cut combat.

Draigo wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Flaw in first point: You don't get FNP with gaunts or gargoyles against Psycannons as psycannons' strength is double their toughness.

Flaw in second point: You have a banner; SitW negated automatically.

Flaw in third point: Most gribblies don't get FNP against psycannons, Toughness 6 is irrelevant with hammerhand / might of titan / rad grenades combo, and yes, the single tyranid unit with a 3++ is moderately effective against GK.

First doesnt matter cause not likely to kill an entire squad which you can run in to stop their shooting unless a 10 man squad. You kill guants tervigons can replenish that in a turn.

2nd banner only helps squad of terminators or pallys to activate their force weapon at str 4 no other powers. So may or may not work.. Against most the army doing 1 wound is irrelevant since you lack enough cc attacks to kill them since your shooting was ineffective. Now if you spam psycanons to make the shooting worthwhile you have effectively reduced your attacks to a pitful amount vs 15+ gaunts made from tervigons and ones that started the game. Banner for the terminators unless in a squad over 5 doesnt help much vs hordes but does give you a chance to kill a big creature.

3rd SitW makes the psy powers less reliable and it can be spammed throughout the army. Now run that unit into swarmlord with a retinue and you are ws 1 tryng to hit a 9 at a lower I. While engaged use doom to leech off wounds.

So no its not clear cut combat.

First Point: The logical jump from can't kill an entire squad --> Shooting is ineffective is mind-blowing. By that logic, no shooting is ever effective because it is very hard to kill an entire squad with a single unit.

Second Point: 1) your shooting was not ineffective - I think 14 gaunts (with FNP from a 10 man purifier squad) or 18 (without FNP) is pretty effective. 2) you still have 2 attacks base plus cleansing flame. Woot.

Third point: It's true, you're right. So now we're up to TWO tyranid units who are marginally effective against grey knights, and I'd argue about the last because 15 attacks from five charging terminators with a banner will still put an instant-death wound on the squad - add a special character with rad grenades and hammerhand ( say a techmarine) and you have 18 attacks with 3 wounds, all of which still inflict instant death thanks to the banner.

EDIT: even without the last part my point stands. The zoanthrope is marginally effective against the Grey Knights, and the Swarmlord is pretty good too. Two units. Wonderful for the nids.

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

Not discounting GK are still strong Luna just that they need a little finessing. You will need both phases to do enough wounds and hafta come up with a plan vs a crafty player. With the new sitw too since yes if stuff works you can clean house but if you dont roll that you can get hurt bad in return.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

Not discounting GK are still strong Luna just that they need a little finessing. You will need both phases to do enough wounds and hafta come up with a plan vs a crafty player. With the new sitw too since yes if stuff works you can clean house but if you dont roll that you can get hurt bad in return.

The fact that you have to 'plan' with Grey Knights doesn't mean they're not OP. The fact that the only time you have to 'plan' at all is against a crafty player is what is OP!

That literally means that you can just dick around, with no plan at all, against a normal player and expect to be victorious.

You see no problem here?

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

Not discounting GK are still strong Luna just that they need a little finessing. You will need both phases to do enough wounds and hafta come up with a plan vs a crafty player. With the new sitw too since yes if stuff works you can clean house but if you dont roll that you can get hurt bad in return.

Have you figured out how many multi wound creatures Tyranids have, and out of those how many have shadows of the warp power?

Well the meta around here is mostly competitve so the people you can just steam roll arent about. So I can only really say from that perspective. Playing any army around here doesnt mean an instant win.

The only guy beside me who plays gk plays draigowing walking list. He hardly ever wins. Ties sure espeacially in c&c but am I suprised a 1k pt squad of 10 pallys draigo and a libby doesnt get wasted unless the entire army shoots at it? No no I am not.

Its no different when people were figuring out twc deathstars or fantasy death stars. People say theyre suprised a 200 pts squad cant waste a 1k pt one. Do you see the problem?

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:Not even close if you use the heck out of Shadow and use gaunts or gargolyes to screen. They have almost nothing that negates armor shooting and add on fnp the psycanon is almost useless unless your shooting 80 plus shots in a go.

We have a local nid player who is undefeated vs the new dexes outside of one loss to my draigowing which was close as all get out because of positioning, Doom, and SitW. If it werent for the banner I wouldnt have done any real damage to the mc.

Hive guard, swarmlord, 2 trygons, 2 tervigons, zoanthropes, doom, and all sorts of issues trying to kill all their screening units without taking any hits. plus doing over 50 wonds that all have fnp, toughness 6 or 3 up invuln. With no powers to consistanly rely on for any help.

Your arguments lead me to believe your exposure to GK are really limited and few.

For example, gaunts and gargoyles are any issue? to Redeemers? with Fortitude? Psyflame?

Remember your paladins? Ya they are the ones you didnt buy apothecary for, or else you could have FNP @ 2 wounds each too.

Not discounting GK are still strong Luna just that they need a little finessing. You will need both phases to do enough wounds and hafta come up with a plan vs a crafty player. With the new sitw too since yes if stuff works you can clean house but if you dont roll that you can get hurt bad in return.

Have you figured out how many multi wound creatures Tyranids have, and out of those how many have shadows of the warp power?

9 have shadow. HQ, Elite, Troops and Heavy can all have it.

Draigo wrote:9 have shadow. HQ, Elite, Troops and Heavy can all have it.

9 out of....?

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:9 have shadow. HQ, Elite, Troops and Heavy can all have it.

9 out of....?

What relevance does that have? How many marines outside of a librarian have a hood?

Here let me do the work.... sigh....

Tyrannofex NONE
Mawloc NONE
Trygon NONE
Trygon Prime YES
Biovore NONE
Old One Eye NONE
Carnifex NONE
Harpy NONE
Sky Slasher Swarm NONE
Ravener NONE
Shrike Brood YES
Ripper Swarm NONE
Tyranid Warrior YES
Pyrovore NONE
Zoanthrope YES
Venmothrope NONE
Death Leaper NONE
Lictor NONE
Hive Guard NONE

Tervigon YES
Tyranid Prime YES
Hive Tyrant YES
Swarm Lord YES Special Char
Doom of Melon Tie YES Special Char
Parasite YES Special Char

Not to mention out of the yes, 3 of them are Special Characters

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Draigo wrote:9 have shadow. HQ, Elite, Troops and Heavy can all have it.

9 out of....?

What relevance does that have? How many marines outside of a librarian have a hood?

The relevance? the relevance is how you can FORCE WEAPON THE REST OF THEM MANY HAVE 4-6 WOUNDS

Fetterkey wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Uh, not really. GKs can keep mobile so they aren't hurt by EV

On some units, yes. That said, the hulls they normally take don't benefit as much as others. For instance, the "psyback" doesn't benefit from tanks' superior ability to move and shoot. Further, Fortitude is far, far worse, as are walkers with two ranged weapons. Generally speaking Riflemen/Psyflemen really got the short end of the pancake edition stick.

"Some"? The number of GK units that need to stand still under these rules can be counted on one hand: the rifle dread, missile/can dread, servitors, and the vindicare. And I don't get were you're thinking that GK don't benifit from Tank. GK vehicles are tanks, so they benifit from the tank special rule, just like every other marine army. the "Psyback" is still MT 2 (unless the psyback is a twinlinked assult cannon, in which case *shrug*). Second, Fortitude does not change at all. If anything with the -1 to vehicle damage makes fortitude much better. Yes, I know that multi weapon walkers get the stick, I'm sad that my burny Deffdread is useless, but maybe this will make people consider purgitors/assault dreads/storm ravens/land raider, which have all gotten better.

Luke_Prowler wrote:you get an extra attack for having an assault weapon and CCW instead of just a pistol

Only on the charge.

That doesn't stop people from playing Orks, or Khorne armies. Getting a bonus for doing what you want to do is not a negitive in anyway. It's like complaining about only being able to fly during the day

Luke_Prowler wrote:It's safer to deepstrike, including no scatter if you deepstrike 18'' away from any enemy (and most GK weapons are 24'')

Sure, but GK don't benefit from this as much as others do.

Who? Other marines, who have to take droppods? Bloods Angels, which makes DoA largely redundant? Daemons, who get their asses kicked by GKs and if they deepstike in assault range will get the piss shot out of them? Tau, who's deepstriking units are more expensive than the GKs? I mean, Necrons I can see getting a big boost, but that's largely because of the Monolith and deathmarks, but I doubt it will be as large as the boost to GKs

Luke_Prowler wrote:Flamers get a whole lot better which makes the incinerator very powerful

This doesn't matter because the psycannon is still totally mandatory for anti-tank purposes.

The Mech is weaker in pancake edition, so anti-tank weapons are no longer "mandatory". Not to mention that template weapons can hit embarked units through the firepoints

Luke_Prowler wrote:and you can snipe melta gunner with any infantry, not just the vindicare.

In some cases, yes, but they can do the same and snipe your psycannons. I honestly think that change hurts GKs more than helps them, since GKs are extra reliant on psycannons to do the heavy lifting for them.

GK can throw the most fire at a farther range than most other units. The ones that do require a elite/heavy unit (like lootas) or a special rule (FRFSRF). Otherwise you'd have to get close to throw as much weight around, and if you do then the Grey knights can assault and be safe from fire

Luke_Prowler wrote:The only thing they lost is being not shooting before assaulting (which everyone lost, but GK still have the range to hurt other assault units) and force weapons only taking off 2 wounds instead for insta-kill (which means they can still kill most non-MC multi-wound units, and since force weapons are Instant Death (2) they ignore eternal warrior)

And Fortitude being good (Extra Armor is now far superior), and the general structure of their army working, and their psychic powers being hard to counter, and their ability to not lose valuable special models, and Draigowing... the list goes on and on.

1. Again, Fortitude did not change, and neither did Extra Armor. Extra Armor is just more desireable because of Hull Breach.
2. Everyone's army structure is changing. I don't know what the specific complaint is here, but I assure you that they won't be the only ones
3. Yes, Psyker defence is more common (which it should be, because so many armies had none), But this is because all Psykers have a +5 chance to deny a psychic power. And guess what, ALL Grey Knight units are psykers. That mean they get a significant boost in their defence while other armies will have to make room for these units, some of which are uncommon now (like wierdboyz)
4. Which ones? Your infantry are largely untouched and vehicles are weaker across all armies. FNP is weaker, but that applies to everyone. Unless your complaint is about Paladins, which is my next point...
5. Boo. Fething. Hoo. Your tough as nails deathstar unit can no longer wound abuse, they can join the pity party with Nobs. At least Paladins get better deep striking and an extra attack. Nobs got NOTHING

I will say that some armies got very good in pancake edition, Nids got a much needed buff and Eldar got quite a boost, but I don't see anything that nerfed Grey Knights

Which puts you in range of the shadow so maybe you just die a miserable death and lose to a "sub par codex."

In all fairness, 75% of your "does not have SitW" list isn't even semi-viable in any list. they other 25% will likely be escorted by a Tyranid prime or Hive Tyrant/swarmlord. It's only the Trygon that often gets itself into force weapon trouble in my experience.

Also, SitW isn't the be all and end all, it halves the chance of force weapons going off against LD10, and cuts it to 37.5% against LD9. Hardly a debilitating penalty when you consider it's a 50/50 chance to turn 1 wound into 6.

Carnage43 wrote:In all fairness, 75% of your "does not have SitW" list isn't even semi-viable in any list. they other 25% will likely be escorted by a Tyranid prime or Hive Tyrant/swarmlord. It's only the Trygon that often gets itself into force weapon trouble in my experience.

Also, SitW isn't the be all and end all, it halves the chance of force weapons going off against LD10, and cuts it to 37.5% against LD9. Hardly a debilitating penalty when you consider it's a 50/50 chance to turn 1 wound into 6.

not to mention its striking in initiative order, and everyone has one.

compare that with power fist for instance....

LunaHound wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:In all fairness, 75% of your "does not have SitW" list isn't even semi-viable in any list. they other 25% will likely be escorted by a Tyranid prime or Hive Tyrant/swarmlord. It's only the Trygon that often gets itself into force weapon trouble in my experience.

Also, SitW isn't the be all and end all, it halves the chance of force weapons going off against LD10, and cuts it to 37.5% against LD9. Hardly a debilitating penalty when you consider it's a 50/50 chance to turn 1 wound into 6.

not to mention its striking in initiative order, and everyone has one.

compare that with power fist for instance....

Oh its certainly better then a fist. lol But the armies who use fist tend to have a bit more damaging shooting typically. If psycanons were ap 3 or roll a rend then yes even without nfw youre good to go. But typcall youre killing gribblies and then gettin assaulted by meaner beasts so then you have to get 6 to wound AND pass your psy test on 3d6.


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I was curious how running 5 10 man purifier squads with 4 psycanons would do but not sure Id want that vs mech but hordes would prob be shredded.

Draigo wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:In all fairness, 75% of your "does not have SitW" list isn't even semi-viable in any list. they other 25% will likely be escorted by a Tyranid prime or Hive Tyrant/swarmlord. It's only the Trygon that often gets itself into force weapon trouble in my experience.

Also, SitW isn't the be all and end all, it halves the chance of force weapons going off against LD10, and cuts it to 37.5% against LD9. Hardly a debilitating penalty when you consider it's a 50/50 chance to turn 1 wound into 6.

not to mention its striking in initiative order, and everyone has one.

compare that with power fist for instance....

Oh its certainly better then a fist. lol But the armies who use fist tend to have a bit more damaging shooting typically. If psycanons were ap 3 or roll a rend then yes even without nfw youre good to go. But typcall youre killing gribblies and then gettin assaulted by meaner beasts so then you have to get 6 to wound AND pass your psy test on 3d6.


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I was curious how running 5 10 man purifier squads with 4 psycanons would do but not sure Id want that vs mech but hordes would prob be shredded.

.......... Draigo.... you know.... psycanons... rend...? You want.... AP3....?

You know psycannons are Str 7 AP4...? akin to an AUTO CANNON? THAT RENDS ? That can MOVE AND FIRE or DOUBLE the SHOTS WHEN NOT MOVING?
and you think.... thats NOT ENOUGH FOR HORDES? SO atleast now you admit that is deadly against all vehicles now finally right?

So let me give you a hint about hordes.... see, 4 psycannons aside what else do they have...... DOUBLE the amount of close combat attacks.
not to mention.... CLEANSING FLAME

Please tell me what cleansing flame does?

See... I apologize that im getting frustrated @_@ <--- my face atm
but you know, at first thought you must be trolling to not see all these strengths.
Then you pretty much convinced me you havnt really played GK ( which is fine )
But you should really take a step back, see how the strength different people posted, COMPILE IT, REALIZE it all these power
belongs to ONE UNIT that can be taken as troops.

Then.... it WILL hit you.

Sorry Luna math alone doesnt mean a whole lot cept to say that the codex has good weapons. That doesnt account for terrain tactics and such. So if you shoot 16 shots hit with half and wound with 4 and maybe 1-2 rends. That isnt reall that impressive since the bigger the squad means all its shots go to one target so 3 - 4 squads shoot and about 50/50 to kill the squad of say gaunts/gargolyes.

That more impressive then 27 twin linked lascanons with up 2 9 seperate targets?

or 15 missiles who can shoot at 15 targets?

Not really.. Then in combat you have a 3 + against around 6 monstrous creatures and poison gaunts?

Idk use all the caps you want Luna. Doesn't make you more right but you can have a idfferent opinion and its also funny that this is considered a bad mtachup for nids but you assume all will go well and slaughter.

Oy vey. This is getting tiresome.

To anyone who thinks that GKs are broken against Tyranids, I issue the following challenge:

You, me, Vassal. I play Tyranids, you play GKs, we see what happens.

Or it could mean I do play against good players who ignore the hype and find ways to make your insta win look more average.


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Also luna you dont know a thing about me so you may not want to assume and im over your false apologies. I have played the army since dh and because I can be the devils advocate you just get "frustrated." I agree its a strong dex but you dimissing other books and sayin they have no chance proves you havent played gk vs a good nids player or one that has played the army more then once.

How fast can a Tyranid army move if they have to stay within the SotW bubble?

Draigo wrote:Sorry Luna math alone doesnt mean a whole lot cept to say that the codex has good weapons. That doesnt account for terrain tactics and such. So if you shoot 16 shots hit with half and wound with 4 and maybe 1-2 rends. That isnt reall that impressive since the bigger the squad means all its shots go to one target so 3 - 4 squads shoot and about 50/50 to kill the squad of say gaunts/gargolyes.

Alright, I guess its time to take it up a notch, lets dance Draigo.
Math isn't used in predicting the final result. Math however, is used in balancing a codex, their capabilities, their worth.
Something Grey Knights are the best at, they are the Space Marines of Space Marines, make no doubt they live up to that.

Draigo wrote:That more impressive then 27 twin linked lascanons with up 2 9 seperate targets?

or 15 missiles who can shoot at 15 targets?

Add up the cost, and see the following:
Are they cheaper?
Are they good at ALL: Anti Armor + Anti Transport + Anti Infantry?
You cant ignore all those points. Grey Knight is the swiss army knife that does it all, and proper.

Also which squad are you talking about that can shoot 15 missile at 15 targets? I must know! :'D

Draigo wrote:Not really.. Then in combat you have a 3 + against around 6 monstrous creatures and poison gaunts?

Again, add up the points. See who goes first as well.
Your argument is constantly flawed, you always bring up unit vs unit, and suddenly additional support comes in to help your side of argument like magic.
Thats like saying GK have no support? thats silly. You raise your monstrous creature, I raise my force weapons.
You raise your gaunts that dont care for force weapons for support, I can do that too! I raise a Land Raider Redeemer that lol~ @ your poison gaunts.
Not to mention the foot print of your gaunt squads, if they do get into combat first, how will the rest of the MC get within 2 inches?

You need to start looking at everything as a whole, how the whole army energizes if you want to be convincing.

Idk use all the caps you want Luna. Doesn't make you more right but you can have a idfferent opinion and its also funny that this is considered a bad mtachup for nids but you assume all will go well and slaughter.

Draigo, so far have I just tell you out right "GK IS STRONGEST AND THATS MY OPINION?"
Nope, So far, I have debunked your claims, point by point with logic and fact. Im not going to beat an idea into your head, because thats impossible.
What I can do, and what I have being doing, is pointing out what you missed , and missed lots you have.

e.g
Draigo say purifiers are not shooty enough against hordes.
Lunahound say purifier is not only shooty, assaulty, they also have double the number of attacks + purifying flame which goes before combat, auto hits, auto wounds EVERYONE on 4+
Draigo says psycannons are not AP3
Lunahound says psycannons dont need to be AP3 when they are STR 7 RENDING ASSAULT CANNONS that can move and fire.
Draigo says tyranid creatures have FNP
Lunahound looks at Draigo's GK list and reminds him that his Paladin should get apothecary to get FNP especially being 2 WOUNDS.
Draigo says he his having trouble dealing with AP 14
Lunahound looks at Draigo's list and reminds him his Purifiers are only carrying HALF of the allowed psy cannons.

See? Im very logical and clear so far.

Luke_Prowler wrote:How fast can a Tyranid army move if they have to stay within the SotW bubble?

Excellent, glad you brought that up. Lots of the effective lists required pods.
Ironically enough half of with SOTW are most effective being dropped via pods.

Very good :3