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You keep bring up force weapons that wound on 6 and have a 50 percent chance to activate how is that a great point vs sitw?

I said small purifiers arent shooty enough and lack attacks.
I never discounted fnp for pally but that matter little vs MC. And again wound on a 6 and 50/50 sitw. So against monstrous creatures you have 4 psycanons 1 or 2 hammers. So you have 4-5 with between 8-15 attacks.. maybe 3 wounds and then maybe a 1 and 3 chance to insta kill. Thats with 10. Not exactly overwhelming..

Again MC vs the dreads.. 4 shots per dread so either focus fire or have 4 dreads shoot at a different target? Which do you prefer luna because that wont do it with them having cover saves from smaller stuff.

As far as moving you can drop pod, run, or spend the pts for trygon prime who is fleet. Depends how they wanna run it.

Draigo wrote:You keep bring up force weapons that wound on 6 and have a 50 percent chance to activate how is that a great point vs sitw?

I said small purifiers arent shooty enough and lack attacks.
I never discounted fnp for pally but that matter little vs MC. And again wound on a 6 and 50/50 sitw. So against monstrous creatures you have 4 psycanons 1 or 2 hammers. So you have 4-5 with between 8-15 attacks.. maybe 3 wounds and then maybe a 1 and 3 chance to insta kill. Thats with 10. Not exactly overwhelming..

Again MC vs the dreads.. 4 shots per dread so either focus fire or have 4 dreads shoot at a different target? Which do you prefer luna because that wont do it with them having cover saves from smaller stuff.

As far as moving you can drop pod, run, or spend the pts for trygon prime who is fleet. Depends how they wanna run it.

I have to ask you this before we get any further.

Do you know why Obliterators cost more than Havocs?

Do you like dancing around or repeating yourself?

Oblits cost comes from versatility luna. Again I never discounted the fact that gk stuff can fufill multi purpose since purifiers can use psycanons and supplement the lost weapons with cf.

Draigo wrote:Do you like dancing around or repeating yourself?

Oblits cost comes from versatility luna. Again I never discounted the fact that gk stuff can fufill multi purpose since purifiers can use psycanons and supplement the lost weapons with cf.

And have TWO attacks?

So far I got you to admit contrary to your original denial

They are excellent against armor
They are excellent against Transport
They are excellent against infantry
They are excellent against horde.

Yet you say Im dancing around? More like If they can do all that, and still remain cheap in points,
how can you still think they are weak?

you have 50 ork shoota boys, shot 5 men purifier down to 1 man standing.

Tell me what following incidents happen in detail.

You lose 14 boyz because you rolled below average, provided that you assault and he gets cleansing flame off. More likely, he hides so you can't shoot him next turn, since you shouldn't be in charge range with your boyz anyway.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:You lose 14 boyz because you rolled below average, provided that you assault and he gets cleansing flame off. More likely, he hides so you can't shoot him next turn, since you shouldn't be in charge range with your boyz anyway.

And that sounds very underpowered

You lose 21 boys if Orks charged. + maybe 1 extra from melee

If they didnt charge, then the GK gets probably 2 dead from combination of shooting and melee
not to mention 21 dead ork boys

From 1 guy

Not over powered at all. Or if we dont like that term.... point cost not appropriated adjusted at all.

Is this good enough against hordes yet Draigo?

How do you lose 21 Orks? Are you charging BOTH your squads into the lone Purifier? Because if you are, you deserve to lose. And, again, you probably aren't in assault range, because you should be avoiding that.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:How do you lose 21 Orks? Are you charging BOTH your squads into the lone Purifier? Because if you are, you deserve to lose. And, again, you probably aren't in assault range, because you should be avoiding that.

Combat resolution fearless wounds will roughly double the effective output of cleansing flame against low armor hordes. 30 hits, 13ish casualties, likely another 7 or 8 from combat resolution after both sides have struck. If its a lone purifier the orks probably won't lose because he's dead, but that's a 78-84 point loss for orks vs a >30 point loss for the grey knights in what should be an optimal scenario for the orks. It's an idiotically designed mechanic that lets GKs do this.

If the GK player was smart he would just combat squad the purifiers and counter charge with them causing 60 hits before combat resolution against full squads and wiping out entire ork and tyranid units before combat actually begins with average rolling.

The codex is way overpowered. All of the veterans at the local game store inevitably get into a discussion about this every game night.
Anyone with a deeper knowledge of the game understands this. Games Workshop and Matt Ward did a disservice to the entire Warhammer 40,000
game by releasing that book. And it was all done in the name of sales; they wanted everyone to buy the new army. In a way they succeeded, and it is
a shame.

It is not 1 thing, it is lot's of little things that make them over the top.

1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.
2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.
3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.
4 - Fortitude
5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)
6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone
7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level
8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted
9 - Paladin wound allocation
10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers
11 - Warp Quake spam
12 - Teleport Shunting
13 - Psychotroke Grenades & Rad Grenades
14 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

You add it all together, and you have an army that can do everything and has virtually no weaknesses. You can't use good tactics to beat them, because they have every angle covered.

Can they be beat? Absolutely, but they will win far more often than they will loose. They also hard counter many different builds and grossly unbalanced the overall meta game for the worse. In the hands of a really good player with a deep knowledge of the game, they are beyond broken, and if that player can do any list tailoring before a game; forget it.

We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

I don't think G.K are over powered at all. Whoever thinks that G.K are over powered are a complete loony.

I think G.K are massively under powered and a weak codex they seriously need to get things sorted to make them top tier codex and beat face

pretre wrote: We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

This thread shouldn't still exist at all.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote: We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

This thread shouldn't still exist at all.

See, Reds8n? We're exactly where we have been for 30+ pages. And I'm the one who gets nailed for spam? lol

We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks. Reds8n... We can please? Is that some sort of pig Latin or something?

pretre wrote:

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

If you'd taken the time and effort to explain the fact that the arguments he'd outlined had already been covered in the thread earlier that would've been fine. And we all could have moved on with our lives into a bright new future full of.. I dunno.. talking puppies and fantastic new types of seafood. And shoes that clean themselves. .. One day.. one glorious day..


But you didn't, hence...

Devil Dog wrote:We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks. Reds8n... We can please? Is that some sort of pig Latin or something?

Dude, don't pick on the moderator's grammar. Poor form.

And to keep me on topic:

Kairos wrote:The codex is way overpowered. All of the veterans at the local game store inevitably get into a discussion about this every game night.
Anyone with a deeper knowledge of the game understands this. Games Workshop and Matt Ward did a disservice to the entire Warhammer 40,000
game by releasing that book. And it was all done in the name of sales; they wanted everyone to buy the new army. In a way they succeeded, and it is
a shame.

Yeah, this is where I knew it would be a good post. Ward-hate, the ol' codex creep to sell books, blah blah.

If you go back over the below, we have been back and forth on this throughout the thread. Nothing new, but some are very entertaining.

1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.
2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.
3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.
4 - Fortitude
5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)
6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone
7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level
8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted
9 - Paladin wound allocation
10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers

I liked this one. Particularly amusing.

11 - Warp Quake spam
12 - Teleport Shunting
13 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

You add it all together, and you have an army that can do everything and has virtually no weaknesses. You can't use good tactics to beat them, because they have every angle covered.

Aha. This is, again, why the GK are sweeping all the tournaments and no one wins against them. Our tactics are powerless!

Can they be beat? Absolutely, but they will win far more often than they will loose. They also hard counter many different builds and grossly unbalanced the overall meta game for the worse. In the hands of a really good player with a deep knowledge of the game, they are beyond broken, and if that player can do any list tailoring before a game; forget it.

And the icing on the cake... Wait, so you're telling me if my opponent list tailors I might lose? Nice.

3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

I'll say again, I think Tyranids have an answer. My Vassal challenge stands.

NeutronPoison wrote:

3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

I'll say again, I think Tyranids have an answer. My Vassal challenge stands.

I'd be interested in seeing your "answer" list.

Let's talk a bit about your list.

Kairos wrote:1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.

This has already been talked to death. Comparing a unit or even a model 1v1 is pointless. It will never matter in an actual game. I would like to point out that Grey Hunters and Chaos space marines are both one point less than a tactical marine, so that must make Space Wolves and CSM OP as well!

Kairos wrote:2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.

Passive psychic defense makes things op? You must play space wolves, because they are the only army I can think of that aegis really matters against.

Kairos wrote:3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

Anything in any book can be spammed. A fully kitted purifier squad costs almost 400 points. That plus the cost of crowe doesn't get you very many units. And if you play against an army with more than 24" range that can shut down your mobility, then it's an autolose.

Kairos wrote:4 - Fortitude

Having the ability to do something that no other army can do does not make one OP. It makes them different. Are BA OP because their tanks are fast? Are CSM OP because they can take havoc launchers and are super cheap?

Kairos wrote:5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)

Almost every psyker in the game comes with a force weapon. Would an army full of psykers make sense if they didn't have force weapons? Nothing is free when it comes to a models cost. Codexes have different price points and are not necessarily pointed against each other. Tactical marines are the equivalent of a Grey Knight in statline only. They don't have the same options, nor the same wargear, nor the same supporting units. So Why would they have a similar cost? Again, what does a tac marine get for his 1 point over a CSM or a grey hunter??

Kairos wrote:6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone

If you can't kill a Land raider with your whole army, then your army has problems. Especially one in "your deployment zone" where you should have meltas/MCs/powerfist or klaws.

Kairos wrote:7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level

No doubt. The GK codex is exceptionally good against an army where all the tanks are av10 and open topped. As is any army with a lot of high quality shots. DEs weakness is that they are a glass cannon. That didn't change when the GK codex came out.

Kairos wrote:8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted

I agree. However, you pay a premium for that librarian body. And if you manage to kill him, then any army built around relying on the librarian will crumble.

Kairos wrote:9 - Paladin wound allocation

This is a complaint against wound allocation. Paladins are just the latest in a line of units abusing these shenanigans.

Kairos wrote:10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers

Assuming you are talking about large groups of paladins, 1000 point units should be good. End of story.

Kairos wrote:11 - Warp Quake spam

I have used warp quake against a Daemon player once. I only had 5 strike squad members. It still made me feel cheesy. However, if I didn't have that time to shoot down his three units of cavalry, I would have felt mush less sorry for him. Everyone likes to say daemons are weak/hosed because of grey knights. But if you've ever been charged by a unit of seekers you will not feel bad for them.

Kairos wrote:12 - Teleport Shunting

I'm not sure how shunting entered into the discussion, but GK are severely limited on mobility for the most part. Shunting gives them a little bit of reach they otherwise wouldn't have. Shunting is the equivalent of a drop podding unit imo.

Kairos wrote:13 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

If you would like to expand on that, I would love to talk about it. Most people complain about DC assassins, but I haven't found them to be that big of a deal. Bubble wrap your important units or hide them in area terrain. I have the feeling that most people who are losing to them are just not playing against them in a smart way.

Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:
snip

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

Tailoring a list to defeat an opponent doesn't mean that that opponent is not good, op or bad. It means you tailored to win. If you can't win with a TAC, then there's a problem.

I mean, the list I posted would be pretty darn near TAC if not for DE. If not for DE (which I do consider broken against 'Nids), I would happily run that as a TAC. The tailored list is still a valuable insight, though, because it helps you realize what a list needs in order to handle GKs.

My win-percentage with my TAC against GKs is still better than against SW.

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

So a list tailored to beat GKs loses to DE, SW and mech Guard. Yep. Usefull list there. It's sad, I actually have to do the same thing with my codex marines. It's hard (if not impossible) to build an all comers list that can handle the specific bs that GKs brings to the table with a few codexes. That implies unbalanced design.

Dok wrote:Let's talk a bit about your list.

Kairos wrote:1 - Their basic strike squad is 4 pts more than a tactical Marine.

This has already been talked to death. Comparing a unit or even a model 1v1 is pointless. It will never matter in an actual game. I would like to point out that Grey Hunters and Chaos space marines are both one point less than a tactical marine, so that must make Space Wolves and CSM OP as well!

Kairos wrote:2 - Aegis on everything & reinforced Aegis on the Psyriflemen.

Passive psychic defense makes things op? You must play space wolves, because they are the only army I can think of that aegis really matters against.

Kairos wrote:3 - Purifiers (that can easily be spammed) Orks & Tyranids don't have an answer if the GK player is skilled. DE close combat armies are also invalidated.

Anything in any book can be spammed. A fully kitted purifier squad costs almost 400 points. That plus the cost of crowe doesn't get you very many units. And if you play against an army with more than 24" range that can shut down your mobility, then it's an autolose.

Kairos wrote:4 - Fortitude

Having the ability to do something that no other army can do does not make one OP. It makes them different. Are BA OP because their tanks are fast? Are CSM OP because they can take havoc launchers and are super cheap?

Kairos wrote:5 - Force Weapons on every model (this is way, way nasty and it is basically provided for free)

Almost every psyker in the game comes with a force weapon. Would an army full of psykers make sense if they didn't have force weapons? Nothing is free when it comes to a models cost. Codexes have different price points and are not necessarily pointed against each other. Tactical marines are the equivalent of a Grey Knight in statline only. They don't have the same options, nor the same wargear, nor the same supporting units. So Why would they have a similar cost? Again, what does a tac marine get for his 1 point over a CSM or a grey hunter??

Kairos wrote:6 - Summoning a Land Raider filled with Grey Knights into your opponents deployment zone

If you can't kill a Land raider with your whole army, then your army has problems. Especially one in "your deployment zone" where you should have meltas/MCs/powerfist or klaws.

Kairos wrote:7 - Psyriflemen - This single unit drastically dropped the DE Codex power level

No doubt. The GK codex is exceptionally good against an army where all the tanks are av10 and open topped. As is any army with a lot of high quality shots. DEs weakness is that they are a glass cannon. That didn't change when the GK codex came out.

Kairos wrote:8 - Librarian - Psychic powers are too powerful and undercosted

I agree. However, you pay a premium for that librarian body. And if you manage to kill him, then any army built around relying on the librarian will crumble.

Kairos wrote:9 - Paladin wound allocation

This is a complaint against wound allocation. Paladins are just the latest in a line of units abusing these shenanigans.

Kairos wrote:10 - Paladin's are virtually untouchable in close combat, except against huge units of Bloodcrushers

Assuming you are talking about large groups of paladins, 1000 point units should be good. End of story.

Kairos wrote:11 - Warp Quake spam

I have used warp quake against a Daemon player once. I only had 5 strike squad members. It still made me feel cheesy. However, if I didn't have that time to shoot down his three units of cavalry, I would have felt mush less sorry for him. Everyone likes to say daemons are weak/hosed because of grey knights. But if you've ever been charged by a unit of seekers you will not feel bad for them.

Kairos wrote:12 - Teleport Shunting

I'm not sure how shunting entered into the discussion, but GK are severely limited on mobility for the most part. Shunting gives them a little bit of reach they otherwise wouldn't have. Shunting is the equivalent of a drop podding unit imo.

Kairos wrote:13 - Henchmen armies are open to all kinds of build abuse

If you would like to expand on that, I would love to talk about it. Most people complain about DC assassins, but I haven't found them to be that big of a deal. Bubble wrap your important units or hide them in area terrain. I have the feeling that most people who are losing to them are just not playing against them in a smart way.

#1 - Your comments regarding my posts are filled with double talk and logic that doesn't make sense.

#2 - You are in the MINORITY if you feel Grey Knights are not overpowered. Most veteran players know that they are, and this very thread shows that over 50% of all players believe they are overpowered. You are mostly trying to convince yourself of nonsense here.

#3 - I also noticed you are a Grey Knight player. That explains a lot of your posting. Not to be rude, but your counter arguments are rubbish.

It beats mech guard with some regularity.

If you deleted Codex: GKs, I still wouldn't be able to beat DE, and I would still usually run out of steam against SW.

And my TAC wins its fair share against GK. Just not by tabling.

pretre wrote: We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

I really don't appreciate this comment. This is a thread to discuss the overpowered nature of Grey Knights.

You can close the thread if you feel it has run it's course.

Kairos wrote:

pretre wrote: We can please make our posts a bit more relevant and worth reading than this one was. Thanks.
Reds8n

So noted. I thought it was appropriate to give him a clap for just re-typing the same argument that's been going on for the last 20 pages, but you know, I understand how you might disagree...

I really don't appreciate this comment. This is a thread to discuss the overpowered nature of Grey Knights.

You can close the thread if you feel it has run it's course.

It has run its course, for the love of the emperor just kill it. It started out terrible and it has always been terrible.

Kairos wrote:I really don't appreciate this comment. This is a thread to discuss the overpowered nature of Grey Knights.

You can close the thread if you feel it has run it's course.

You don't have to appreciate it, but that doesn't make it any less true. You rehashed the same arguments that have been going on for 30 pages. Granted, you did it in a nice format, but still...

What did you expect?

pretre wrote:

Kairos wrote:I really don't appreciate this comment. This is a thread to discuss the overpowered nature of Grey Knights.

You can close the thread if you feel it has run it's course.

You don't have to appreciate it, but that doesn't make it any less true. You rehashed the same arguments that have been going on for 30 pages. Granted, you did it in a nice format, but still...

What did you expect?

Like you haven't done the same thing.

ShumaGorath wrote:It has run its course, for the love of the emperor just kill it. It started out terrible and it has always been terrible.

Hey Shuma, I'm not quite sure we know what your position on this thread is... Could you explain?

We get it, dude, you don't like this thread. You never have. You don't need to make every response 'please close this thread'. If you legitimately want it closed, hit the little exclamation point and notify a moderator of your concerns.