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pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:It has run its course, for the love of the emperor just kill it. It started out terrible and it has always been terrible.

Hey Shuma, I'm not quite sure we know what your position on this thread is... Could you explain?

We get it, dude, you don't like this thread. You never have. You don't need to make every response 'please close this thread'. If you legitimately want it closed, hit the little exclamation point and notify a moderator of your concerns.

I probably interject for the same reason that you dive on every grenade thrown by someone who hasn't read the thread and who has tossed in the same repetitious list of what is unbalanced about the codex. There are problems afoot, I guess I'm just going farther downstream to fix it.

ShumaGorath wrote:Like you haven't done the same thing.

For someone who hates this thread and wants it to close, you're doing a great job perpetuating it with pithy one-liners.

And no, I have not catalogued a ton of arguments that previously were discussed and laid them out as if they were brand new because I hadn't read the rest of the thread. But thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:I probably interject for the same reason that you dive on every grenade thrown by someone who hasn't read the thread and who has tossed in the same repetitious list of what is unbalanced about the codex.

Except debating the topic of the thread is on-topic. Where as constant calls for the thread to be closed because you don't like it isn't.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Like you haven't done the same thing.

For someone who hates this thread and wants it to close, you're doing a great job perpetuating it with pithy one-liners.

And no, I have not catalogued a ton of arguments that previously were discussed and laid them out as if they were brand new because I hadn't read the rest of the thread. But thanks.

No, but you've managed to repeat the same lines for a good 30 pages in here.

Except debating the topic of the thread is on-topic. Where as constant calls for the thread to be closed because you don't like it isn't.

Someone should do something about that! Clearly the thread is off topic! It should get locked

Kairos wrote:#1 - Your comments regarding my posts are filled with double talk and logic that doesn't make sense.

#2 - You are in the MINORITY if you feel Grey Knights are not overpowered. Most veteran players know that they are, and this very thread shows that over 50% of all players believe they are overpowered. You are mostly trying to convince yourself of nonsense here.

#3 - I also noticed you are a Grey Knight player. That explains a lot of your posting. Not to be rude, but your counter arguments are rubbish.

Kairos, why don't you address his points directly rather than as a whole. That's how we discuss things.

Yes, the 'very scientific' poll at the top of the page says that they are OP. Appealing to the authority that 'most veteran players' doesn't really help your case. Use your own statements to do that.

Oh god theres a poll at the top of this. I never even noticed. What is winning?

pretre wrote:

Kairos wrote:#1 - Your comments regarding my posts are filled with double talk and logic that doesn't make sense.

#2 - You are in the MINORITY if you feel Grey Knights are not overpowered. Most veteran players know that they are, and this very thread shows that over 50% of all players believe they are overpowered. You are mostly trying to convince yourself of nonsense here.

#3 - I also noticed you are a Grey Knight player. That explains a lot of your posting. Not to be rude, but your counter arguments are rubbish.

Kairos, why don't you address his points directly rather than as a whole. That's how we discuss things.

Yes, the 'very scientific' poll at the top of the page says that they are OP. Appealing to the authority that 'most veteran players' doesn't really help your case. Use your own statements to do that.

I have already listed the very real reasons Grey Knights are overpowered. The "comments" Dok listed above are double talk and hyberbole.

I am not going to spend a bunch of time trying to convince a Grey Knight player that his book is overpowered and unbalanced. Walk into any established 40K gaming group, and find out who the veterans are. Ask them their
opinions about Grey Knights if you don't believe me.

It is what it is.

I agree its a strong book but not old csm, old ba, or 2nd nids. It did not ruin the an entire edition like 7th daemons. I also dont think it invaliated much outside of non fatecrusher daemon lists.

I think if the list is well made and against an opponent without psy defense it will be slow going for their oppoenent. But it does take certain builds to really bring out the gk power. While 10 paladins with libby and Draigo is really hard to bring down it is slow and can be out positioned.

Purifiers can bring a lot of hurt but if they take a lot of psycanons have fewer of the dreaded nfw attacks plus av 12-13 spam vs purifiers can hurt them, like an all dreadnaught sm list.

Henchamn is kinda a mixed bag cause they have things that are very good at one thing but say the DCA lose their ride well then they just get shot to pices.

The power is in the list building really. I still am suprised people bring up warp quake.. Building a list around that is ridiculous since only a small minority would be doin that much ds. Kinda a party foul espeacially if you tailor to play a daemon or drop pod guy.

Kairos wrote:

pretre wrote:

Kairos wrote:#1 - Your comments regarding my posts are filled with double talk and logic that doesn't make sense.

#2 - You are in the MINORITY if you feel Grey Knights are not overpowered. Most veteran players know that they are, and this very thread shows that over 50% of all players believe they are overpowered. You are mostly trying to convince yourself of nonsense here.

#3 - I also noticed you are a Grey Knight player. That explains a lot of your posting. Not to be rude, but your counter arguments are rubbish.

Kairos, why don't you address his points directly rather than as a whole. That's how we discuss things.

Yes, the 'very scientific' poll at the top of the page says that they are OP. Appealing to the authority that 'most veteran players' doesn't really help your case. Use your own statements to do that.

I have already listed the very real reasons Grey Knights are overpowered. The "comments" Dok listed above are double talk and hyberbole.

I am not going to spend a bunch of time trying to convince a Grey Knight player that his book is overpowered and unbalanced. Walk into any established 40K gaming group, and find out who the veterans are. Ask them their
opinions about Grey Knights if you don't believe me.

It is what it is.

You posted a list of things that had no argumentative back-up. Basically a list of why you feel GK are OP with no reasoning.
Of course it's double-talk and hyperbole. That's what this whole thread is full of. People are complaining that in very specific situations against specific models, GK are OP. You did this yourself.

As far as Veteran 40k players are concerned, I've been playing 40k on and off since 2nd edition. The only people I see complaining about GK are people that aren't knowledgeable about what a GK player can do and subsequently get romped, and people who are full of theory-crafting BS and haven't played a game of 40k in three months.

Also, Just because I'm a GK player makes my opinions or statements about GK invalid? Wouldn't they be more valid since I've spent a large amount of time using and playing against the army? I have at least 50 tournament games worth of experience backing me up.

Kairos wrote: Walk into any established 40K gaming group, and find out who the veterans are. Ask them their opinions about Grey Knights if you don't believe me.

It is what it is.

People like to complain... and a lot of people who consider themselves "veterans" at 40K are not really that much better players than us normal scrubs... and their opinion is not magically more valuable. However, if you really did want to poll people about whether GKs are OP, then I think you should ask people who are doing well at a large GT. I think that they would at least have a broader perspective than many of us gamers that play against the same group of people week in and week out.

Personally, I think the GK is probably one of the best written books currently out there... It provides a lot of flexibility in what units you can take in your list and remain effective. It has multiple builds that can run with the big boys and do well. I do NOT think this is overpowered, though. The book has a very high "low-end" because most of the units are effective, so even a battleforce list isn't terrible. However, it's top-end builds are not any meaner than the top BA, SW, and IG builds.

A lot of the hypotheticals I have seen thrown around assume that the GK are going to have every single, possible unit in their list to counter anything any army could to them. That is just never going to be the case though. If you go Purifier spam, then you face tough matchups against shooty armies that can torrent your expensive dudes down. If you go heavy henchmen, then you might have a lot of stuff, but your troops die to a stiff breeze. Draigo-wing gets destroyed by tank shots/melta spam. EVERY army has bad matchups... even GKs. I have yet to see a single GK list posted anywhere that is an unbeatable list. I haven't even seen that many that my Space Marines army would hate more than SW/IG.

And to be honest... saying that GKs destroy Nids doesn't make them OP. Is there a 5th Edition codex that doesn't ROFLstomp the Nid codex?

Can someone please lock this thread, is just people who don't know about GK arguing that they are overpowered and unexperienced GK players defending how Gk are not overpowered.

ALL i see is this unit can beat this, thens someone else comes along and says unit B beats unit a then it carries on and on.

I will speak with about how GK deals with other armies.

GK vs mech marines, amazing.

GK vs mech DE, good but once your units are out of the tanks, they die instantly. but still venoms are made of paper.

GK vs Horde marines, trouble for GK

GK vs horde orks, (kanwall) close game, just had a game, orks won with 1 more KP. 60 shoots from 30 orks vs 1 squad of GK is win. GK in combat with orks is instant death for them but after the combat, the GK squad will be so small, some lootas or even grots will have no problem dealing with them.

Because people don't seem to understand, a moderation note:

We don't close threads that continue to garner polite and topical conversation.

We do sanction posters who drag threads off-topic (including repeated cries to close a thread), or are rude to other posters.

If you don't have something topical to add to a thread, don't post.

If you don't care to read a thread, don't click on it.

Janthkin wrote:Because people don't seem to understand, a moderation note:

We don't close threads that continue to garner polite and topical conversation.

We do sanction posters who drag threads off-topic (including repeated cries to close a thread), or are rude to other posters.

If you don't have something topical to add to a thread, don't post.

If you don't care to read a thread, don't click on it.

Shouldn't you close a thread because its creating a divide in the community? This topic has proved nothing useful for either side of the arguement because all i can see is people asking someone else to be topical but being untopical themselves. When I used to be a mod I first let this kinda of topic go on but it eventually just leads to off topic insults.

I think everything about the topic have been said and many would agree. Now it has turned into unit vs unit. Shouldn't this atleast be moved to 40k general discussion? because it has nothing to do with tournaments anymore, it might started on topic but its not anymore.


Now to everyone else, please read the last few pages of the topic and tell e what you guys have been talking about. You have been comparing units vs units, this has nothing to do with GK nor tournaments. Every army will have an unit that can beat another.

Now since this is tournament discussion, lets all talk about tournament lists not a tailored list vs demons.

My opponion, I think GK are good but not the most over powered book in a decade, there are lists that will beat them and there are some who don't stand a chance, Overall, GK are very balanced on all fronts. Unless your army is super specialised in one department, then you will find it hard to win against GK.

However, most tournament lists are all very competitive so winning and losing is not down to ig GK are over powered anymore, its more the general's skill.

Overall, GK are very balanced on all fronts. Unless your army is super specialised in one department, then you will find it hard to win against GK.

I really don't understand this. What armies do you play against GKs? Didn't you earlier state that you didn't regularly play them? There are matchups where there is legitimate and serious unbalance. GKs vs dark angels can not be won by the dark angels without the knights making immense mistakes. Same with most tyranid builds. Codex marines vs GKs and most BA builds are in the same boat. Even dark eldar have an intensely difficult time with most GK builds. These aren't outliars, these are repetitious and played out scenarios that has lead to an anti GK backlash that was much worse than the anti IG or lashwhip chaos backlashes were. There are numerous items in that book (halberds, psychotropes, psycanons, etc) that are commonly considered overpowered and undercosted and the book is an entire army based on force weapons which is inherently unbalancing at it's barest level as it ignores two defensive strategems that many armies rely on.

It is not balanced on all fronts. At all. It's not even close. Whether its overpowered or not isn't even relevant here (for "balance" concerns), its at it's barest an incredibly unbalanced book because it's basic equipment is an extreme derivation of a specialized weapon and it can wound allocate almost every model in its army at once.

Generally I have a hard time with all power armour armies such as the BA All assault marines + devastators list, any army with a good counter assault element and effective screening units, Paladins, and some IG lists.
It is terribly difficult for a GK list with low mobility to deal with paladins. Even high mobility Gk lists have trouble as there is no reliable way to get enough low ap shots on them.
The all power armour list with FNP is really hard as well. Everything gets two saves against almost all the shooting unless you rend. They also get to decide where combat takes place as their mobility far surpasses yours.
Certain IG lists in certain deployment types will also take me off the table with little effort. It's really important for me to go first in those situations or it's almost an auto-lose.

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

I will accept your vassal challenge. For the record, I have never played a game with grey knights. You can select which build I have: Draigo wing, Crowe-pruifier spam, henchman spam. I am assuming you list is around 2k points. Also modified rule set instead of sieze ground, capture and control, and annihilation the mission will be this: If you have 1 model (just one) survive the game you win. That means I have to board wipe you in 6 turns to win the game. I will post a detailed battle report covering the game as well. I dont do this to show that nids are bad. I do this to show you that GK are just that silly. Normally I dont play to board wipe opponents but this is for enlightening purposes so I will make an exception. PM with times your available to play. I am usually free on monday days, wednesday mornings or evening, or friday all day.

Marthike wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Because people don't seem to understand, a moderation note:

We don't close threads that continue to garner polite and topical conversation.

We do sanction posters who drag threads off-topic (including repeated cries to close a thread), or are rude to other posters.

If you don't have something topical to add to a thread, don't post.

If you don't care to read a thread, don't click on it.

Shouldn't you close a thread because its creating a divide in the community? This topic has proved nothing useful for either side of the arguement because all i can see is people asking someone else to be topical but being untopical themselves. When I used to be a mod I first let this kinda of topic go on but it eventually just leads to off topic insults.

I think everything about the topic have been said and many would agree. Now it has turned into unit vs unit. Shouldn't this atleast be moved to 40k general discussion? because it has nothing to do with tournaments anymore, it might started on topic but its not anymore.


Now to everyone else, please read the last few pages of the topic and tell e what you guys have been talking about. You have been comparing units vs units, this has nothing to do with GK nor tournaments. Every army will have an unit that can beat another.

Now since this is tournament discussion, lets all talk about tournament lists not a tailored list vs demons.

My opponion, I think GK are good but not the most over powered book in a decade, there are lists that will beat them and there are some who don't stand a chance, Overall, GK are very balanced on all fronts. Unless your army is super specialised in one department, then you will find it hard to win against GK.

However, most tournament lists are all very competitive so winning and losing is not down to ig GK are over powered anymore, its more the general's skill.

hmmm, you seem to hate this thread and appear to be trying to end it because you (yourself) do not like it. Instead of ending an entire thread because of your opinions; move to the top of the screen and select your name. Click on view threads subscribed by you and then click unsubscribe. This way we dont have to read how much you want it locked every time you post. The thread has been informative on multiple fronts. Especially to players who might be in a meta where GK are not prominent. Knowledge is power and as I said in another thread recently: knowing is half the battle.

@marthike

The last few have been on topic. They were discussing the points made that GK made certain armies completely unviable. The points were they can be or could not be so saying that the people are inexp or dont know is not accurate just because they have differing opinions.

Gornall wrote:

Kairos wrote: Walk into any established 40K gaming group, and find out who the veterans are. Ask them their opinions about Grey Knights if you don't believe me.

It is what it is.

People like to complain... and a lot of people who consider themselves "veterans" at 40K are not really that much better players than us normal scrubs... and their opinion is not magically more valuable. However, if you really did want to poll people about whether GKs are OP, then I think you should ask people who are doing well at a large GT. I think that they would at least have a broader perspective than many of us gamers that play against the same group of people week in and week out.

Very true, and we're all guilty of it. Part of life is to complain about how much alot of it sucks!

However, even asking the GT goers and top placers can be misleading. Every event is different, from the calibur of the top players, to the amount and type of terrain on each table to even the size of the tables and pts values.
The only really true way to gage any army's power level is to take 2 equally skilled players and give them set lists to play and repeat those games again to avoid the oddities of the dice. Then get them to swap out the GK's enemies to another army. rinse & repeat ad nausium!
Finally, bring in a terrible player, give them a highly efficient pre-made GK army, put them up against each of the top level players in turn and see the results. If your 'idiot monkey' makes it close/ties for example, you can safely say that GK's is on a level above other armies!

Then do that with every army in the game and you'll have an actual, valid set of 'tiers' to rank armies.

Gornall wrote:Personally, I think the GK is probably one of the best written books currently out there... It provides a lot of flexibility in what units you can take in your list and remain effective. It has multiple builds that can run with the big boys and do well. I do NOT think this is overpowered, though. The book has a very high "low-end" because most of the units are effective, so even a battleforce list isn't terrible. However, it's top-end builds are not any meaner than the top BA, SW, and IG builds.

A lot of the hypotheticals I have seen thrown around assume that the GK are going to have every single, possible unit in their list to counter anything any army could to them. That is just never going to be the case though. If you go Purifier spam, then you face tough matchups against shooty armies that can torrent your expensive dudes down. If you go heavy henchmen, then you might have a lot of stuff, but your troops die to a stiff breeze. Draigo-wing gets destroyed by tank shots/melta spam. EVERY army has bad matchups... even GKs. I have yet to see a single GK list posted anywhere that is an unbeatable list. I haven't even seen that many that my Space Marines army would hate more than SW/IG.

I agree that GK's and also SW's have likely the best internal balance of any other 5th ed codex - not a single unit can honestly be called a complete terd choice. Okay, so daemonhosts are pretty crap, but henchmen overall are still very good! And Blood Claws are far from a crap unit, just completely outdone by Grey Hunters when you're simply looking into pure 'efficientcy vs cost'
Every single unit in those books is viable on the table, where as every other codex has at least unit you really scratch your head and wonder why it's even printed in the book!

However, GK's have awful external balance;
- Their 'hard counters' to certain unit types are OTT. 'Winning Flame' for example would still be solid vs hordes if it only hit models in BtB contact and would stop 1 model from being able to pretty much auto-kill 2-3x it's pts cost worth of enemies. Likewise, the anti-daemon counters are outright unfair and just leave daemon players feeling butt-hurt for no real reason other than, "Well they're DAEMONHUNTERZ!1!!!11!" (Stern, dark ex, warp quake & truesilver armour - I'm looking squarely at you! )

- Cheap, OTT upgrades that just reak of being "upgrade X but awsumorz!" Would GK vehicles really be too expensive if Fortitude was even 10pts in total? Or would GK assault fall apart without the 'derp grenades? Do rad grenades really have to effect the instant death threashold when you can so easily combine them hammerhand or MoT? For that matter, do GK's really need to break the BRB rule about applying 2x strength bonuses before other bonuses stack?! Would warp quake honestly be garbage if it only had a 6" range from every model in said unit?!
Best of all, would psyflemen be over-costed if they had to pay 15-20pts for the psybolt ammo?!

- Arguably their 3 'best' bang-for-buck units can all be turned into easily spamable Troops choices. That more than anything can really turn people off of GK's. Most people would likely give their left nut to get that kind of flexability and instant access to such amazingly cost-effective units.
Purifyers or paladins aren't so bad when they compete with the other elites. What kills it is when you can take say purifyers with a techmarine in each squad and still work a small unit of pallies in there as well. Expensive sure, and limited to higher pts games. But honestly, if you're not running a gunline, what the hell do you do when you know your guns won't stop it all?!! (god forbid you're an assaulty army with fewer guns to begin with!)

Dark Eldar at least have the built-in check they can't get around; they're a total glass cannon. GK's combine MEQ goodness on top of being obnoxious to alot of armies.

Gornall wrote:And to be honest... saying that GKs destroy Nids doesn't make them OP. Is there a 5th Edition codex that doesn't ROFLstomp the Nid codex?

Well, Daemons don't auto roflstomp 'nids! It's actually quite a bloody mess most games which is pretty fitting imho! I also see codex marines that don't use vulkan have a harder time vs 'nids as well.

Tyranids problem lies in being hard done-by trying to deal with mechhammer armies. Balanced lists that forgo bringing 6-9+ transports AND tanks/walkers are pretty even match-ups for the bugs.

ShumaGorath wrote:I really don't understand this. What armies do you play against GKs? Didn't you earlier state that you didn't regularly play them? There are matchups where there is legitimate and serious unbalance. GKs vs dark angels can not be won by the dark angels without the knights making immense mistakes. Same with most tyranid builds. Codex marines vs GKs and most BA builds are in the same boat. Even dark eldar have an intensely difficult time with most GK builds.

SNIP

It is not balanced on all fronts. At all. It's not even close. Whether its overpowered or not isn't even relevant here (for "balance" concerns), its at it's barest an incredibly unbalanced book because it's basic equipment is an extreme derivation of a specialized weapon and it can wound allocate almost every model in its army at once.

I don't think I agree with the first part. My Vanilla Marines really don't hate GKs more than SW or IG or even DE. None of the GK builds I have seen online would cause me to make any adjustments to my list.... just my tactics. I also think that Mech BA matchups up well against most GK builds. FNP, lots of AV13, tons of melta, and even Furious Charge can all cause serious problems for GKs. When I take my GKs out for a spin (thus rendering my opinion invalid), the one thing I do NOT want to see across the table from me is a good DE army. Saying that GKs can stomp one of the oldest books (DA) and one of the worst new ones (Nids) does not equal GKs being overpowered. Same thing for GKs having lots of cool toys on their guys. NFWs and wound allocation does not necessarily equal OP.

I don't think I agree with the first part. My Vanilla Marines really don't hate GKs more than SW or IG or even DE.

They should. They do almost everything worse in almost every way. The costing between C:SM and SW/IG is ludicrous.

I also think that Mech BA matchups up well against most GK builds. FNP, lots of AV13, tons of melta, and even Furious Charge can all cause serious problems for GKs.

FC and FNP don't do particularly much to an army where every model has a power weapon. It is certainly a damper on their ranged superiority, but odds on psyfledreads killing baal preds is actually pretty good. If you're playing a foot heavy list with lots of devastators you could do very well, but in tournament meta that same list is going to probably lose before it gets to the top tables to particularly matter. One of the biggest strengths of the GKs is that popular anti mech builds don't work well against them and strong anti GK builds don't work well against mech.

As for FC, I don't really understand how it causes headaches. The majority of dangerous GK units in CC will be I6.

When I take my GKs out for a spin (thus rendering my opinion invalid), the one thing I do NOT want to see across the table from me is a good DE army.

Then you're probably playing the GKs wrong. They do interweaved fields of fire exceptionally well and can survive the alphastrike (thanks to shrouding) better than most codexes. Their standing against DE in a tournament setting is pretty consistent. They're an incredibly difficult match for popular mech deldar builds.

Saying that GKs can stomp one of the oldest books (DA) and one of the worst new ones (Nids) does not equal GKs being overpowered.

I also said codex marines and BA. I'll extend that to daemons, chaos, SOBs, and necrons.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I don't think I agree with the first part. My Vanilla Marines really don't hate GKs more than SW or IG or even DE.

They should. They do almost everything worse in almost every way. The costing between C:SM and SW/IG is ludicrous.

I also think that Mech BA matchups up well against most GK builds. FNP, lots of AV13, tons of melta, and even Furious Charge can all cause serious problems for GKs.

FC and FNP don't do particularly much to an army where every model has a power weapon. It is certainly a damper on their ranged superiority, but odds on psyfledreads killing baal preds is actually pretty good. If you're playing a foot heavy list with lots of devastators you could do very well, but in tournament meta that same list is going to probably lose before it gets to the top tables to particularly matter. One of the biggest strengths of the GKs is that popular anti mech builds don't work well against them and strong anti GK builds don't work well against mech.

As for FC, I don't really understand how it causes headaches. The majority of dangerous GK units in CC will be I6.

When I take my GKs out for a spin (thus rendering my opinion invalid), the one thing I do NOT want to see across the table from me is a good DE army.

Then you're probably playing the GKs wrong. They do interweaved fields of fire exceptionally well and can survive the alphastrike (thanks to shrouding) better than most codexes. Their standing against DE in a tournament setting is pretty consistent. They're an incredibly difficult match for popular mech deldar builds.

Saying that GKs can stomp one of the oldest books (DA) and one of the worst new ones (Nids) does not equal GKs being overpowered.

I also said codex marines and BA. I'll extend that to daemons, chaos, SOBs, and necrons.

uh um... excuse me good sir. My underpowered SoB are undefeated against GK at the moment a perfect 1-0

uh um... excuse me good sir. My underpowered SoB are undefeated against GK at the moment a perfect 1-0

There is only one possible explanation.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I don't think I agree with the first part. My Vanilla Marines really don't hate GKs more than SW or IG or even DE.

They should. They do almost everything worse in almost every way. The costing between C:SM and SW/IG is ludicrous.

I also think that Mech BA matchups up well against most GK builds. FNP, lots of AV13, tons of melta, and even Furious Charge can all cause serious problems for GKs.

FC and FNP don't do particularly much to an army where every model has a power weapon. It is certainly a damper on their ranged superiority, but odds on psyfledreads killing baal preds is actually pretty good. If you're playing a foot heavy list with lots of devastators you could do very well, but in tournament meta that same list is going to probably lose before it gets to the top tables to particularly matter. One of the biggest strengths of the GKs is that popular anti mech builds don't work well against them and strong anti GK builds don't work well against mech.

As for FC, I don't really understand how it causes headaches. The majority of dangerous GK units in CC will be I6.

When I take my GKs out for a spin (thus rendering my opinion invalid), the one thing I do NOT want to see across the table from me is a good DE army.

Then you're probably playing the GKs wrong. They do interweaved fields of fire exceptionally well and can survive the alphastrike (thanks to shrouding) better than most codexes.

Saying that GKs can stomp one of the oldest books (DA) and one of the worst new ones (Nids) does not equal GKs being overpowered.

I also said codex marines and BA. I'll extend that to daemons, chaos, SOBs, and necrons.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this then. Yeah, Vanilla Marines are showing their age a bit, but still have the tools to get the job done. I have never felt like any army is an auto-loss with my Marines and GKs have done nothing to change that. I just think that GKs are not any tougher of a matchup for them than SW, IG, DE, or BA.

I stand by my BA comments. FNP helps reduce the impact that Stormbolters and to a lesser extent Pyscannons have on the fight. Yeah, NFWs can be a pain, but you can use FC to strike before non-halberd units such as Strike Squads. The only things that are going to take halberds in serious numbers are Termies and Pallies which have to be shot to death. Yeah... the dangerous CC units cannot be killed by FCing BAs, but why wouldn't the BA player just shoot them instead. Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty. Also, BAs and SMs can bring cheap, effective Hoods to shut down powers.

And I still think DE can be a pain. Nightshields can really hurt the effectiveness of Pyscannons, and Lances can wreck vehicles or Termies/Pallies. Venoms make dismounted GK squads cry. If your opponent has a Libby and Shrouding... focus on the units outside the 6" bubble. You have speed and range, so pick a side and smash it. I think it's a tough matchup for both sides... which is how it should be.

Older books are old... more news at 10. Daemons, CSM, and DA all have problems with most 5th Edition books. GKs are nothing special in that regard.

NeutronPoison wrote:Well, my super-tailored anti-GKs is:

Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200

3 Hive Guard - 150
3 Hive Guard - 150
2 Hive Guard - 100

10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
10 Termagants - 50
Tervigon, AG/TS, Catalyst, Scything Talons, Cluster Spines - 200
7+1 Genestealers, Broodlord
6+1 Genestealers, Broodlord

Trygon - 200
Trygon - 200
Trygon, AG - 210

I've tabled Crowe / Purifiers / Dreads with this. It seems like most people don't quite understand how many psycannon shots it takes to drop a FnP Trygon, or how little this Tyranids list actually needs the Trygons (once you've shot down the Trygons, the Tervigons, 'Stealers, buffed-up gaunts, and Hive Guard chew through Purifers pretty easily, since Cleansing Flame is more or less a non-factor under Shadow at Ld 7 due to 2 stacking Auras of Despair off of the Broodlords.

Granted, this list runs out of steam against SW and flails ineffectively against DE. I do think it exposes GKs weaknesses pretty nicely, though. I imagine Jump BA would present similar problems to Crowe / Purifier / Dreads (although maybe not to a Paladinstar).

My TAC is pretty different from this, and tends to wind up getting ground down by Psycannon fire against smart GKs players (not-so-smart GKs players don't keep their distance and get eaten in CC), but that's really more because of how many concessions I have to make just to feel like I have a chance against DE.

Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

Tomb King wrote:
Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

Cocky, aren't you?

pretre wrote:

Tomb King wrote:
Alright for the masses this game has been scheduled on vassal:

alright so:

JY2's MSU mech purifier spam(per his request I will be running this list) vs above nids list on wednesday February 8th on vassal at 7:30 EST 8:30 CST. If you all would like to observe the game. The mission is modified annihilation. If one nid model survives the game he wins. Further info is listed in my previous post.

Cocky, aren't you?

Im using GK's I am merely playing the roll

This game is pretty much codex vs codex. I have never used GK's before.

Hhhmm not sure that mentioned nid list has enough sitw, big enough cover squads, etc. Id prefer to add doom, zoanthropes, trygon primes and swarmlord. Interested to hear the result tomb king.

Draigo wrote:Hhhmm not sure that mentioned nid list has enough sitw, big enough cover squads, etc. Id prefer to add doom, zoanthropes, trygon primes and swarmlord. Interested to hear the result tomb king.

For those that dont make it I plan on doing a complete battle report.

Tomb King wrote:For those that dont make it I plan on doing a complete battle report.

I intend to do the same. If you want, I can make a google doc and we can each narrate our own turn? Also, I've figured out how to save replays with Vassal, so we might as well distribute those too.

I figure as long as this thread has lasted 30 pages, we might as well make a spectacle of it, lol.

They're obviously very powerful, but overpowered? What would that mean?

I've never lost a game to Grey Knights because they just don't have the numbers to keep up a war of attrition. On the other hand, they all have force weapons, excellent guns, and the Dreadknight. But all of these advantages basically boil down to having better elites than everyone else and being able to kill everyone else's elites really well.

The flip side: they just cannot win or even tie against my 150+ model green tide army. They simply do not have the numbers to kick out enough fire, or to hold objectives, or to even survive a round of CC.

So I would proffer that GK is not overpowered (whatever that is), but may be advantaged when playing against other small, elite armies.

erewego86 wrote:
I've never lost a game to Grey Knights because they just don't have the numbers to keep up a war of attrition. On the other hand, they all have force weapons, excellent guns, and the Dreadknight. But all of these advantages basically boil down to having better elites than everyone else and being able to kill everyone else's elites really well.

The flip side: they just cannot win or even tie against my 150+ model green tide army. They simply do not have the numbers to kick out enough fire, or to hold objectives, or to even survive a round of CC.

Horde armies such as 150+ ultra-cuddly orks got to watch out for purifiers. Do you play against purifiers?