Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 gameandwatch wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, I do not believe you can run GSC with nids. Your entire army must have at least one faction keyword in common, GSC and Tyranids share none if I remember correctly, since tyranids only faction keyword is tyranids. GSC and AM can be in the same faction, even though they dont share a faction keyword as they have a special rule that allows them to do so...

Did GSC have tyranids faction keyword as well? I dont remember seeing it?

GSC has the Tyranid faction keyword.

For the Stone-Crusher Carnifex with Bio-Flail, can you allocate 1 attack to the bio-flail and 3 attacks to the thresher tail? Or does the Bio-flail require that all of the attacks for the model be used up for that ability?

RAW wise the bio flail is a mess, don't try to find some reasoning in it.

Nasty wrote:
GSC have some units that can help us ?

The Magus is the most useful of the GSC units for Tyranids

Thinking of doing a Supreme Command Detachment just for 3 of them, and opens up a AM slot

Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:I go away for a day and the thread keeps exploding! Keep it up guys! Great conversations.

 SHUPPET wrote:

You might wanna check some of your maths here. By "potentially 9" you also mean "potentially 3", you can count that as 6 shots since that's the average, so yeah its still just 24 shots just like the Dakkafex. They are S6 not S5 as well which is relevant against GEQ. Also, that unit of Warriors is 255 points, as opposed to 2x Dakkafexes at 194 points (61 points more expensive), which is over 30% increase of cost. and btw Warriors have the same BS as Carnifexes do unless you bring a Prime, which is even more points. Basically, Dakkafex's will outshoot that Warrior squad and be MUCH more tanky, and are also faster, and thats assuming they were the same points, when the Fexes are actually significantly cheaper.

Are you sure that my math is that bad? I believe the VC is S8 and not 6. That's also 36" range which would be twice that of a Deathspitter. I believe 2x Dakkafexes are 228 pts. That's 67 base + 2x 2 Deathspitters 40 + Thresher Scythe 7 = 114pts x 2 = 228.

The whole point is to run warriors with the Alphas making them that more effective if I'm foot slogging across the board.

Well thats not a Dakkafex, and never has been. A Dakkafex is dual Devourers taken on the cheapest possible platform (historically Carnifex, still the case today) making for the cheapest output of S6 volume of fire in the dex.

Carnifex + 2x Devourers w/Brainleech = 97 pts

Your loadout is needlessly expensive, also no reason to pay for a thresher when they don't have melee kits that just makes him worse, Bone Mace is the best attack he has.




2x Dakkafex = 194 points
vs
7x Warriors w/ 2x Venom Cannon, 5x Deathspitter = 198 pts


I just took the time to do maths properly and factor in saves, here's what I got:


Dakkafex = 6.6 wounds vs GEQ
Warriors = 5.5 wounds vs GEQ


So it's not as bad as I thought thanks to AP, but its also still nowhere near what you said, and much in the advantage for Dakkafexes shooting wise, more than 120% extra. The Venom Cannon's are literally 1.3 wound a turn for all their shooting combined, so yeah I guess thats a little extra damage at 18" further than the rest of your guns, but in reality its making minimal impact against GEQ, and you still need to get in 18" range anyway, and as we both agree the main advantage of this unit is Trygon tunnel so yeah that 36" is barely worth mentioning.

This is before factoring in the extra cost of Boneswords, or TPrime or whatever, when considering their efficiency. You want to add Alpha Warrior to your rolls? Fine, but that's another Dakkafex worth of points and then some. I could buy those Dakkafexes a Malanthrope at those points and then have points left over to upgrade to Deathspitters. All this is relevant to evaluating a unit.

Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:And I don't buy the whole "tanky" argument considering the Carnifex is more likely to draw fire of the higher wounding -AP weapons than the Warriors will. I'll take the 27 wounds at T4 over the 16 at T7. With the added flexibility of the warriors to either ride in a sweet sweet drop pod festooned with guns or buddy up with the Trygon, I think clearing the "bubble wrap" (new term for me) is more of a task for the Warriors than the Carnifex.

That's not how the game works. The opponent has the same guns available whether you put Carnifex or Warriors against him. If your opponent makes the mistake of firing at the wrong unit, that is not an accurate representation of the units compared tankiness.

The difference against Lascannons and Plasma etc, is like 1 or 2 hits extra from like 60 shots of the gun, in favor of Warriors. So they seem equally likely to draw AT. However, against GEQ and MEQ counter shooting (the key target profile we are looking at here as well) they are less than half as tanky. The only reason not to fire the same AT at Warriors that you would have at Carnifexes, is because the lighter weaponry already decimated them because every shot is two and a half times more effective vs Warriors. And each Carnifex is its own squad, so wasted shots from overkill is a factor for AT weaponry as well.

Basically, compared to that Warrior unit, Dakkafexes are going to survive longer, and are also far more tanky in the fact that you need to kill an entire units worth of wounds before they even start losing any effectiveness at all, Carnifexes have no drop off from taking wounds. Then against the target profile we are talking about here, clearing geq BEFORE assault, Dakkafexes have a higher damage output, and take a ridiculous amount of extra return fire as well.



I'm not saying Warriors are useless, I think they are very viable now that they are basically better Marines in every way and have much better support units this edition with Trygons and TPrimes, and they could honestly even end up being one of the best units in the dex, especially with Prime support! Don't get me wrong here, I think Warriors are great.

I'm just saying that as a support unit to kill GEQ screens for our assault units, a role Luke was talking about our army already struggling with, that taking Warriors with Deathspitters and Venom Cannons, your math that you provided for them as compared to Dakkafex was flat wrong. Dakkafex have the advantage mathematically, but Warriors might save you points elsewhere by providing Synapse and allowing you to sink more free points into improving those numbers, and also have advantages like Trygon drops. However, if we are paying for a Trygon, Devilgants severely outdamage both units, but thats another story.

I'm not against Warriors, I was just trying to check your math, because Dakkafex are better than your numbers were saying.

Spoletta wrote:If the Mawloc is in melee, that's because your opponent assaulted him, not the contrary. You never want your mawlock to be in melee, he should be going up and down every other turn,

For 105 points a model that inflicts a good deal of mortal wounds when he arrives, and must be put in melee or he is going to take a lot of mortal wounds home, is a really good bargain.

Hmmm. Over the course of a 6 turn game, that will average you 12 mortal wounds all up, assuming you hit 2 units a turn, which is probably being generous as its fully in your opponents power to mitigate that. Biovores in comparison, average 18 mortal wounds, and can't be gimped by smart positioning anywhere near as hard. I think we might have to do more than just come up and reburrow every turn to get points worth out of Mawlocs, and that probably involves using the fact that it can appear on the board an inch away from anything and threaten an assault the next turn as one of it's strengths, and the fact that if they die or they focus a large amount of firepower on it and cripple it, it can just pack up and come back somewhere.
If this isn't happen, then it's probably not going to be worth its points to be honest. It does have a lot of wounds luckily and is probably the tankiest model in the dex for the points. On that note, what sort of squads do we envision would be it's optimal targets? It's profile is 8 attacks at S6, with hopefully a few rolls for extra damage. It's going to do very well against GEQ in assault at the very least.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Your loadout is needlessly expensive, also no reason to pay for a thresher when they don't have melee kits that just makes him worse, Bone Mace is the best attack he has.

His loadout also is better against most targets and has far better melee.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Oh, @Luke, I meant to add... Don't forget in your math that Quad Mortar Batteries count as Infantry and Vehicles, whereas Wyverns are just Vehicles.

That means a 30pt Company Commander can issue re-roll 1's to Mortars versus Wyverns who cannot. This also means you don't lose a 2nd CP as you can take a dirt-cheap HQ and three separate Mortars if you're so inclined.

It really puts the two, mathematically at pretty close to even across the board.

You are not wrong. Unfortunately, Taurox Primes are even better. A little more expensive but they put out a stupid amount of damage, and they hit on 3's if they can stay stationary (aka after the first turn).

The 30 point dude is really just there to give immunity to morale for my conscripts, who it seems are going to have to be a mainstay screening unit

It's kind of tragic how Nids need the gunline support competitively. I wonder if there is a good counts as or conversion for a Tyranid Taurox prime?

Tyran wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Your loadout is needlessly expensive, also no reason to pay for a thresher when they don't have melee kits that just makes him worse, Bone Mace is the best attack he has.

His loadout also is better against most targets and has far better melee.

And I never said otherwise.


Once again, and I feel like a broken record here, but here goes

We were trying to discuss the best unit for shooting down GEQ screens, BEFORE assault phase, to help provide dedicated screen killing support for our dedicated assault units, to make sure they can get to their preferred targets without being blocked, and not have to end their turn in combat with a screen instead.


As Luke said, this is an aspect lacking in the dex, so much that he has gone through GSC to unlock AM to provide Wyvern support. Some of us don't want to do that, so the optimal unit for this role inside the Nid dex is less obvious.



If it has to wait to the assault phase itself and has no significant speed advantage over the rest of our army, it's not going to do that.


Paying for upgrades that makes it less efficient at the role, is not a valid argument that it does the role worse.



The comparison here was Dakkafexes vs Warriors, and which one does the role better. You can argue that a Carnifex that isn't kitted to be a Dakkafex, is less efficient at a completely different role, but that doesn't change the only statement I'm making, which is that his maths was way off.


And anyway, even WITH Deathspitters and Thresher, it still outshoots the Warriors point for point, so it's kinda irrelevant.




EDIT: There is however an argument to be made for a slow assault army like a bunch of a Stonecrushers, bringing in Warriors ahead of everything else through a tunnel will get there first and can actually make it to assault with the screen before the Fexes need to assault, most likely!

Needs don't NEED the outside gunline support. Nids have a great gunline of their own. We are weak against Stormraven spam and have issues with Dark Eldar Splinter weapon spam, but we can still compete if we play intelligently.
We have access to fortifications, so we can take anti air batteries and void shield generators to help us outlast the fliers.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:If the Mawloc is in melee, that's because your opponent assaulted him, not the contrary. You never want your mawlock to be in melee, he should be going up and down every other turn,

For 105 points a model that inflicts a good deal of mortal wounds when he arrives, and must be put in melee or he is going to take a lot of mortal wounds home, is a really good bargain.

Hmmm. Over the course of a 6 turn game, that will average you 12 mortal wounds all up, assuming you hit 2 units a turn, which is probably being generous as its fully in your opponents power to mitigate that. Biovores in comparison, average 18 mortal wounds, and can't be gimped by smart positioning anywhere near as hard. I think we might have to do more than just come up and reburrow every turn to get points worth out of Mawlocs, and that probably involves using the fact that it can appear on the board an inch away from anything and threaten an assault the next turn as one of it's strengths, and the fact that if they die or they focus a large amount of firepower on it and cripple it, it can just pack up and come back somewhere.
If this isn't happen, then it's probably not going to be worth its points to be honest. It does have a lot of wounds luckily and is probably the tankiest model in the dex for the points. On that note, what sort of squads do we envision would be it's optimal targets? It's profile is 8 attacks at S6, with hopefully a few rolls for extra damage. It's going to do very well against GEQ in assault at the very least.

12 mortal wounds at 105 points is quite good actually, and if my math is not off, 3 biovores average 9 mortal wounds over 6 turns. That is assuming that spore mines never make it to the target, which is highly possible since they cannot assault without being removed by overwatch and with split fire the opponent will spare a couple of bolter shots for them.

Honestly, spore mines are one of my favourite models, but i simply don't see how you can deliver them.

Spoletta wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:If the Mawloc is in melee, that's because your opponent assaulted him, not the contrary. You never want your mawlock to be in melee, he should be going up and down every other turn,

For 105 points a model that inflicts a good deal of mortal wounds when he arrives, and must be put in melee or he is going to take a lot of mortal wounds home, is a really good bargain.

Hmmm. Over the course of a 6 turn game, that will average you 12 mortal wounds all up, assuming you hit 2 units a turn, which is probably being generous as its fully in your opponents power to mitigate that. Biovores in comparison, average 18 mortal wounds, and can't be gimped by smart positioning anywhere near as hard. I think we might have to do more than just come up and reburrow every turn to get points worth out of Mawlocs, and that probably involves using the fact that it can appear on the board an inch away from anything and threaten an assault the next turn as one of it's strengths, and the fact that if they die or they focus a large amount of firepower on it and cripple it, it can just pack up and come back somewhere.
If this isn't happen, then it's probably not going to be worth its points to be honest. It does have a lot of wounds luckily and is probably the tankiest model in the dex for the points. On that note, what sort of squads do we envision would be it's optimal targets? It's profile is 8 attacks at S6, with hopefully a few rolls for extra damage. It's going to do very well against GEQ in assault at the very least.

12 mortal wounds at 105 points is quite good actually, and if my math is not off, 3 biovores average 9 mortal wounds over 6 turns. That is assuming that spore mines never make it to the target, which is highly possible since they cannot assault without being removed by overwatch and with split fire the opponent will spare a couple of bolter shots for them.

Honestly, spore mines are one of my favourite models, but i simply don't see how you can deliver them.

my bad, you are right. Did the maths with them doing D3 Mortal Wounds a hit as well, which they don't.


I guess Mawloc's coming in and out might be pretty good compared to Biovores, so long as you can clip multiple units. I guess an advantage it has is adding a solid amount of potential to control objectives as well, and any fire it attracts for whatever reason will be the least efficient target your opponent can shoot at, assuming you have mostly other MC's in your army. I'm sure you could also use it to help bring down the guillotine in combat instead of reburrowing as well, just another option even if not always relevant. Also, it can put wounds on characters!

Also I suspect, that while in theory, people shouldn't shoot at it till last, and it SHOULDN'T clip more than 2 units a turn, I get the feeling that its the kind of unit that will perform even better in practice than it will on paper. People might try kill it because they know if they don't, their elite unit or their HQ is taking a bunch of unavoidable wounds, or maybe both at once if they don't split, or maybe they CAN'T split because it will make their character the closest unit to something and thus targetable, etc. No way of really measuring the impact of that sort of backfield disruption.

I'm really reconsidering him as a unit now



EDIT: they are looking like a decent option for AA as well, in numbers. 5 of them are cheaper than 2x Stormraven.

At the same time though, i rechecked the math on the mawlock and he averages 1,5 wounds, which on 5 turns would make it 9 wounds with 2 available targets.

Yes, we do have that kind of well designed codex. Cheers for us!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you can really see that it was properly playtested from the fact that they put the restriction in place of "no more than one every six inches". Man, with CP rerolls 3 mawlocks would have been the ultimate snipers.

Spoletta wrote:
At the same time though, i rechecked the math on the mawlock and he averages 1,5 wounds, which on 5 turns would make it 9 wounds with 2 available targets.

Yes, we do have that kind of well designed codex. Cheers for us!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you can really see that it was properly playtested from the fact that they put the restriction in place of "no more than one every six inches". Man, with CP rerolls 3 mawlocks would have been the ultimate snipers.

Oops I see that too. 9 wounds if he's hitting 2 targets a turn. Biovores do that without requiring to hit multiple targets. Mawloc might be kinda gimmicky then in comparison.

But at the same time require synapse and they are more vulnerable in a way. The mawlock you either take away the last wound or he is still at 100% power.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
At the same time though, i rechecked the math on the mawlock and he averages 1,5 wounds, which on 5 turns would make it 9 wounds with 2 available targets.

Yes, we do have that kind of well designed codex. Cheers for us!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And you can really see that it was properly playtested from the fact that they put the restriction in place of "no more than one every six inches". Man, with CP rerolls 3 mawlocks would have been the ultimate snipers.

Oops I see that too. 9 wounds if he's hitting 2 targets a turn. Biovores do that without requiring to hit multiple targets. Mawloc might be kinda gimmicky then in comparison.

My 'over the top' biovore army includes 3 mawlocks. Mawlocks not only add a good amount of mortal wounds, but also forces the enemy to shoot them to make sure the cant assault. If the get to assault the get backup from all the sporemines that are floating around. Mawlocks are very cheap in your face units and pretty flexible I think.

Help me out here, I haven't been able to get to a store to purchase the rules yet. If I pop a Mawlock 1" away from a unit, I get to chow down, and put some wounds on. That's nice and all...but doesn't that mean that the unit Cannot Overwatch? I've got a unit within1" don't I?


If that is true taking one Mawloc for each Trygon seems like a reasonable thing to do.

pinecone77 wrote:
Help me out here, I haven't been able to get to a store to purchase the rules yet. If I pop a Mawlock 1" away from a unit, I get to chow down, and put some wounds on. That's nice and all...but doesn't that mean that the unit Cannot Overwatch? I've got a unit within1" don't I?


If that is true taking one Mawloc for each Trygon seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Mawloc puts you more than 1" away, and triggers on units within 2".

Hi,

I found an offer on eBay for a Tyranid Army:

Hive tyrant with wings
The Swamlord
2x Zoanthropes
20x Gargoyles
Tervigon
34x Termagants
15x Hormagaunt
6x Tyranid Warriors
16x Genestealers
Genestealer Leader
8x Genestealers of Ymgarl
Mawlock
2x Guard swarm
3x Carnifex
5x Sawrming eaters
1x Mycetic spore

Could I build a 1000/1500 pts competitive list with these units?

Thank you !

HeavenLord wrote:
Hi,

I found an offer on eBay for a Tyranid Army:

Hive tyrant with wings
The Swamlord
2x Zoanthropes
20x Gargoyles
Tervigon
34x Termagants
15x Hormagaunt
6x Tyranid Warriors
16x Genestealers
Genestealer Leader
8x Genestealers of Ymgarl
Mawlock
2x Guard swarm
3x Carnifex
5x Sawrming eaters
1x Mycetic spore

Could I build a 1000/1500 pts competitive list with these units?

Thank you !

Easily. You get a lot of staples, like the tyrant, the swarmlord, 24 genestealers, 3 carnifex... Ok actually 90% of that list are models you see in a lot of lists.

 SHUPPET wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
Help me out here, I haven't been able to get to a store to purchase the rules yet. If I pop a Mawlock 1" away from a unit, I get to chow down, and put some wounds on. That's nice and all...but doesn't that mean that the unit Cannot Overwatch? I've got a unit within1" don't I?


If that is true taking one Mawloc for each Trygon seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Mawloc puts you more than 1" away, and triggers on units within 2".

Thanks! I guess then, I have to Charge, and take Overwatch...that does sound better ballenced. But at least they have to target a big ugly instead of my delightful Stealers.

Has anyone found any good strategy for our little lovely balloons of death?

So, guys

1st place at at the first GP, Boise Cup

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Tim-Travers-1st-Overall-Boise-Cup-GT-2017.pdf


Space Marine flyer spam.


Basically:

3x Stormraven w/ Multi-Meltas + Hurricane Bolters

3x Stormhawk w/Skyhammer Missiles

1x Captain
6x Marines








So the question is.... how do we beat this army?

3 CC Flyrants is what it takes to kill a Stormraven in a turn if they get in range. However, the 3x Stormhawks DELETE a Flyrant a turn from 48" range, and can apply half that damage from 60", and are only 80% the price, so this might not be ideal.

Exocrine aren't scared of Stormhawks, and does 5 wounds a turn each if it doesn't have to move. This means it takes 3 to delete a Stormraven in a turn. Those Stormravens have a 24" threat range so it's probably gonna happen. However, they also do 11.8 wounds to an Exocrine in a turn, and its a 12 wound model so thats probably gonna wipe one off the field before they can shoot.

120 Devilgants kills a Stormraven in a turn and doesnt care about return fire, but.... lol.

Assault units are borderline useless other than forcing them not to hover, which impacts their mobility a little but isn't going to change games. They can claim objectives... but so can shooty things.







Not saying any of these are great options, just spitballing through what we CAN possibly do. Gonna have to think of options to deal with this because we already knew this was going to be a popular option, but after coming 1st at the first GT its going to be even more popular, and drawing an auto-loss to this list is going to be pretty impractical for Tyranid results if we want to be competitive.

If we can't kill them is there ways to play around it? Dominate objectives with MSU?

Can AM allies through GSC provide reliable AA support?

Stormravens are the bane of tyranids. I understood this when one with Girlyman tabled my 1500 point list in 3 turns pretty much on it's own.
I managed to make it hover and charged it with a fex, but it suffered 8 wounds in overwatch and died.

In general, i feel that hurricane bolters are too cheap.

pinecone77 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
Help me out here, I haven't been able to get to a store to purchase the rules yet. If I pop a Mawlock 1" away from a unit, I get to chow down, and put some wounds on. That's nice and all...but doesn't that mean that the unit Cannot Overwatch? I've got a unit within1" don't I?


If that is true taking one Mawloc for each Trygon seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Mawloc puts you more than 1" away, and triggers on units within 2".

Thanks! I guess then, I have to Charge, and take Overwatch...that does sound better ballenced. But at least they have to target a big ugly instead of my delightful Stealers.

Oh, it specifically can't charge the turn it arrives, and also can't Reburrow while within 1".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
Stormravens are the bane of tyranids. I understood this when one with Girlyman tabled my 1500 point list in 3 turns pretty much on it's own.
I managed to make it hover and charged it with a fex, but it suffered 8 wounds in overwatch and died.

In general, i feel that hurricane bolters are too cheap.

does AM allies have any options? Not totally familiar with that army yet in 8th

AM Anti-Air Support:
There is the Hydra which has a quad AA turret. It is very good against Flyers, but the Hydra itself will die instantly by the fire of a Stormraven or Stormhawk.

You could try to use 9 meotic spores as a unit to charge them Turn 1 with a Swarmlord. They deal 18 Mortal Wounds on a target. However this is just a solutioin against 1 Stormraven.

You can use a lot of Hive Crones, because they have a move of 30. The Problem is that you need 3 Crones to kill one flyer.

Maybe dropping spore mines could be good. You can see where the flyers have to go to avoid getting of the table. If you drop the mines there, you can block the line for them.

I think that the list is unbeatable unless you win over objectives. But the amount of shooting from the fliers will probably table you at some point.

AM allies do help against 1 or 2 flyers, but to take down a list like that you need to have specialized weapons like Tau and Eldars or flying beasts like chaos Demons.

Hurricane bolters should be costed at 12 points to become a choice. For the cost of a devourer they are a no brainer.

Sorry for all, but we can't have Tyranid + CG + AM in the same army

Brood Brother only permit to have CG and AM in the same army. Even if the AM keyword is ignore, it has always the imperium Keyword and AM still don't have the tyranid keyword. So it doesn't work

Now that I think about it, maybe spore mines are really the answer.
You could easily drop 18 spore mines in turn 1 or 2 for 180 point (or more mines). This can be a huge problem for the flyers, when you anticipate where they have to go. They might have to go off the table or cannot land and thus are dead instantly.

Shuppet, or someone else who is good at mathhammer could we do a spreadsheet for the units contesting to shoot up the front line? I think this could help with the argument. That way you can decide if you wanne run straight dakka fexes vs having warriors in the list for a more utilaty unit that does other things as well.

So we.would need averedge wound per point we pay. Then we need to do this vs marines and guards menn.

The contesters as far as I can see are:
Devourer gaunts
Carnifex, 4 x brainleech
Carnifex, 4 x brainleech, plasma
Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots
Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots, plasma
Tyranofex, fleshborer hive, standing still (40 shots)
Warriors, devourers, barbed strangler
Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler
Warriors, devourers, venom cannon
Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler
At what point a tyranid prime with a cannon starts earning its points back.

Are there any others I am missing? Raveners with guns, Hive guards, pyrovores or biovores, are they contesters?

 Niiai wrote:
Shuppet, or someone else who is good at mathhammer could we do a spreadsheet for the units contesting to shoot up the front line? I think this could help with the argument. That way you can decide if you wanne run straight dakka fexes vs having warriors in the list for a more utilaty unit that does other things as well.

So we.would need averedge wound per point we pay. Then we need to do this vs marines and guards menn.

The contesters as far as I can see are:
Devourer gaunts
Carnifex, 4 x brainleech
Carnifex, 4 x brainleech, plasma
Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots
Carnifex, 4 x slimer maggots, plasma
Tyranofex, fleshborer hive, standing still (40 shots)
Warriors, devourers, barbed strangler
Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler
Warriors, devourers, venom cannon
Warriors, deathspitters, barbed strangler
At what point a tyranid prime with a cannon starts earning its points back.

Are there any others I am missing? Raveners with guns, Hive guards, pyrovores or biovores, are they contesters?

Raveners are basically going to be slightly more expensive Warriors as far as shooting goes, probably not even worth calculating, you can just look at them and know "ok if I want my Warriors to have Deepstrike its going to be SLIGHTLY less efficient shooting per model than Warriors" Pyrovores I'll check. Biovores not really. I'll include Borer TFex as well. And Wyverns too. If someone can message me the entire rules for Thudd Gun ill do it as well.


I will set-up units of AROUND the same amount of points and do all calcs vs GEQ so we can actually see what it practically looks like

I could do vs MEQ as well, but it will take double as long and I feel like MEQ units aren't going to be screening anything - they will just be the target. I'm not super familiar with the new meta though. Is there any real reason to do calcs vs MEQ here?