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Chaos knights just got a big boost from Chaos Daemons codex. We can include up to 25% of the power level in chaos daemons into a CK list as allies without it breaking our rules. This is rather big. Because now we can take infantry units in order to perform actions if we want to without having to worry about them breaking our rules.

Problem is now daemon infantry is a bit on the pricey side and theres no option to take anything less than a unit of 10 troops, so you're not going to get away with taking a few 5 man MSUs of plaguebearers as objective/action caddies.

So, the "cheapest" detachment I can get with two infantry units and a greater daemon is as follows:

1 Keeper of Secrets - 14 power level (PL)
1 daemonette troop - 6 PL
1 unit of Flamers - 3 PL

Total: 23 PL and 475 points.

The Keeper of Secrets is basically like a cheaper, more fragile but slightly less killy Rampager, but she moves 16 inches and has -1 to hit, and is 4++ against shooting all the time.

With 1525 points remaining, should not be difficult to get at least 70 PL or more and we can run all sorts of stuff, including 1 big knight and 7 war dogs, with buffs. Or 3 big knights with buffs.

So, now we get 2 infantry units that can perform actions (like raise banners). The flamer can sit in the backline and hold a backline objective, and be irritating to kill (its tzeentch after all). It has fly, so if you want to be aggressive and fly it up the board to raise a banner, it can do that as well.

The Keeper of secrets can also help make doing warpcraft secondaries easier as well because she can cast psychic too. If she gets focused down, that's fine, because she is less than 75% of the points cost of a big knight. If we can squeeze in the PL and the points, we can pay 35 points and +2 PL to give her Diaphanous Panopoly which is -1 to wound. That would essentially make her into a Be'lakor in terms of defense.

We can still take everything including chaos knight secondaries, relics and warlord traits and we don't lose our Harbringers of Dread ability.

Plus one more bonus. Daemons cause -1 to leadership. This mesh very well with our Dread ability. If we are triggering our Dread ability near to the Keeper of secrets, our opponent will be testing on a -2 on our dread abilities.

I think all that sounds better on paper than it is in practice. 3 Flamers are not particularly irritating to kill, especially not without the strategem and buff support you're losing by taking them as allies. Flamers biggest asset is their killiness, which you're not going to take advantage of by camping them in your backfield. Likewise 10 daemonettes will die to a stiff breeze. In reality, you are probably better off using the daemonettes as the backline objective campers and using the flamers to raise banners.

Chaos knights having access to raise the banners just sounds very interesting to me. I mean, we could go cheap with a herald of Slanaash / Transweaver. The points saved could then allow us to bring two units of flamers instead of one, and maybe change to a unit pink horrors instead of daemonettes.

So, everything except the Transweaver is tzeentch and has a 3++ daemonic save, so it super irritating to kill. Have the pink horror squad raising a banner on your home objective.

The Transweaver moves 9 inches, and the two units of flamers are 12 inch flying infantry that can literally raise a banner on a midboard objective on turn 1. You could potentially raise 4 banners with these 4 units on turn 1.

Once they are raise, the rest of the army, if its all wardogs, will be filling the board with T7 obsec. It is honestly going to be a nightmare taking down those banners after that.

And once they have raise the banners on turn 1, they have done their job, but can still shoot. With the rest of the army filled with 1600 points worth of wardogs, I think your opponent will have a lot more to worry about than trying to kill some tzeentch daemons with a 3++ daemonic save to shooting. Flamers are actually extremely point efficient against shooting. A unit of 3 flamers is 75 points for 9W which have a 3++ against shooting. And such a unit flies 12 inches too, so they are actually not easy to catch in melee unless you let them.

And with this contingent being agents of chaos, chaos knights retain our Ruthless Tyranny secondary right?

Plus the Transweaver can even allow us to take warp storm secondaries like warp ritual or psychic interrogation if we are so inclined. (Just don't get her killed lol).

It just feels like by the time they deal with our 1600 points of chaos knights, this 370 points of daemons would have scored enough points for it to be too late for our opponent to come back.

Is there any way of including units from another chaos faction in a Chaos Knights list without losing detachment abilities? I have a 1,900pt list and it would be really useful to be able to bring a character or something to get it up to 2,000pts.

 dreadblade wrote:
Is there any way of including units from another chaos faction in a Chaos Knights list without losing detachment abilities? I have a 1,900pt list and it would be really useful to be able to bring a character or something to get it up to 2,000pts.

Harbingers of Dread works so long as every model in your army is either Chaos Knights, Agents of Chaos, or unaligned. Easiest access to Agents of Chaos is Abaddon in a supcom detachment or a patrol of Daemons, neither of those will get in under 100 points though.

Yep. Something like 300-380 could give pretty solid tzeentch patrol though. Foot herald to cast and buff up to 6 flamers(bonkers good) and 10 horrors to camp objective that ain't worth shooting.

But "bit" more than 100. Could pay 2cp for aux det for one unit but while 4 flamers would be good no deepstrike with just 1 unit limiting them.

Thinking about this list: (2000 points)

Chaos knights Super heavy detachment (vextrix)

- Wardog Brigand RELIC: Helm of the dog
- Wardog Brigand
- Wardog Brigand

- Wardog Brigand
- Wardog Brigand
- Wardog Brigand

- Wardog Hunter
- Wardog Hunter

- Wardog Karnivore
- Wardog Karnivore


Daemon Vanguard detachment (agents of chaos) 3CP

-Fateskimmer

- 4 flamers
- 5 flamers
- 5 flamers

I need some help with the following: I really want to toughen up the Karnivores because they're going to be taking a lot of incoming fire after the first move. Different way's in doing that but I'am not sure about the right setup.

Options:

Vextrix warlord trait: +1 wound and heal d3 wounds each command phase
Warlord trait: warp hunted hull: 5+ feel no pain in the psychic phase and extra deny the witch

Dreadblade: gheists of ruin (light cover outside 18 inch shooting) or Hellforged construction (S7 or lower attack gets -1 damage) Could also use a relic to get both. Could also use a fellbond with 5+ save against psychic phase mortal wounds. Nice against thousand sons and tzeentch daemons psychic power.

favours:
putrid carapace: +1 save against 1 damage weapons
pyrothrone: get the winds of warp psychic power for a 5+ feel no pain.
Mark of the dread knight: 6+ feel no pain

Relics:
2+ save
2+ save against mortal wounds from the deamonic surge
4++ against shooting (also 6++ against melee)


I got 2 CP to spend and also 30 points for a favour of the dark gods. Could always drop a flamer for extra points if needed.

Maybe this:
carnivore dreadblade with 2 fell bonds (relic) + putrid carapace
carnivore with vextrix warlord trait and pyrothrone with winds of warp.

Would like some input.. thanks!

The Storm of Darkness secondary seems to imply you can move while performing the action (as long as you remain in range of the objective marker). I thought you couldn't move while performing an action?

 dreadblade wrote:
The Storm of Darkness secondary seems to imply you can move while performing the action (as long as you remain in range of the objective marker). I thought you couldn't move while performing an action?

The secondary happens between movement phases, so you can't move while it's happening. I think it's just to assume the model doesn't die, or you heroic intervene/consolidate away from the objective.

Yeah the wording implies that you might be able to move because it says the action is completed provided the unit performing it is still within range of the same objective marker.

but the core rules say an action is failed if it makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, manifests psychic power, shoots, charges or performs a Heroic Intervention.

So in theory the model can still move if the move is not one of the above. Not clear what that move could be.

 Nithaniel wrote:
Yeah the wording implies that you might be able to move because it says the action is completed provided the unit performing it is still within range of the same objective marker.

but the core rules say an action is failed if it makes a Normal Move, Advances, Falls Back, manifests psychic power, shoots, charges or performs a Heroic Intervention.

So in theory the model can still move if the move is not one of the above. Not clear what that move could be.

Consolidate?

 jaredb wrote:

The secondary happens between movement phases, so you can't move while it's happening.

It happens from the end of your morale phase until the end of your next psychic phase.

What do people think of an all Dogs list?

I am trying out Herpetrax

4x Executioners w/melta (3 Tzeentch favors and Nurgle autowound favor)
2x Karnivores (2 Slaanesh favors)
3x Brigands (Undivided FnP favor)
1x Stalker Spear/Claw (Undivided reroll favor)
1x Stalker Chain/Chain (Nurgle aura favor)
1x Moirax Grav (Dreadblade ignores light cover)

10 of the 12 have a Favor upgrade, all stubbers instead of pods

Shooters sit in back with Helm of Dogs and Winds of the Warp psychic power.

Edit:
I could also trade in the Moirax, a Brigand, and a Karnivore to get a Big Boy Taskmaster and give him an undivided favor so he can potentially get back up after dying. I'm not sure that's a great idea, though, considering I'm losing counts as 5x3 obsec bodies and gaining 10x1 to sit in the back. In addition to that, the 3 dogs have 42 T7 wounds while Big Boy has only 28 T8 wounds

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
What do people think of an all Dogs list?

I am trying out Herpetrax

An all dogs list is good but you have chosen taking favours over an extra 14 wound wardog. I run a similar list in Herpetrax with 13 wardogs and fewer favours. The extra wardog is more valuable than lots of abilities in my opinion. The list will essentially stat check the T7 14 wounds position against an army and try and trade up by sacrificing wardogs to pull enemies out of position to get shot or countercharged while trying to max storm of darkness and ruthless tyranny and a kill secondary.

You also can't give multiple favours in 1 unit. I also don't like winds of the warp only because on its own its not usually enough to manage a psychic secondary and the FnP is ok but not great because once you've cast it you are already presenting so many other targets that it can be safely ignored. Also gives up abhor the witch.

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I am trying out Herpetrax

An all dogs list is good but you have chosen taking favours over an extra 14 wound wardog. I run a similar list in Herpetrax with 13 wardogs and fewer favours. The extra wardog is more valuable than lots of abilities in my opinion. The list will essentially stat check the T7 14 wounds position against an army and try and trade up by sacrificing wardogs to pull enemies out of position to get shot or countercharged while trying to max storm of darkness and ruthless tyranny and a kill secondary.

You also can't give multiple favours in 1 unit. I also don't like winds of the warp only because on its own its not usually enough to manage a psychic secondary and the FnP is ok but not great because once you've cast it you are already presenting so many other targets that it can be safely ignored. Also gives up abhor the witch.

Good points, and I had overlooked the "1 favour per unit" thing. I reduced it to 7 favours, slotting the gravity Moirax into a Dreadblade with the Rune of Nakabakka (ignore light cover and House Vextrix trait)

I think you're right about the FnP...in the test games I've played, it hasn't come up as much as I would've thought. A bubble on my Executioners is fun, but people seem to target closer units rather than what I think are the workhorses. I also think really the only armies that Witchhunting is good against are GK and TS, and they don't see much play atm

Did a little more reworking, and now I have a Karnivore in deep strike with +1 to charge and the Pterror relic

I do like the favours, they make the army more flavourful imo.

I know everyone is sorta looking forward to 10e, but I thought I'd share my results so far with the All War Dogs Party list. I've played 10 games so far and lost 1 (to Votann double Fortress), every other game I scored 90-100 pts. I've played against Guard, Necrons, Asuryani, Sisters, and Votann

House Herpetrax for an additional 2 wounds on each Dog. My points efficiency is at 12points per wound, which is ridiculously good when the entire army has a vehicle profile of T7 3+/5++

2x Karnivores split into 2 squads
1 of them is my WL, with Eager for the Kill trait (+1A in enemy deployment and +1 to charge), the Traitor's Mark heirloom (pick an extra Harbinger ability for that model + no Insane Bravery and no rerolling morale bubble), and Warpborne Stalker favour (Deep Strike!)
1 of them has Blood Shield favour (trade my melee invuln to ignore invulns for a Fight phase) and Havoc launcher

4x Executioners split into 2 squads, all with meltas
1 of them has the Helm of Dogs heirloom (reroll wounds of 1 bubble) and the Mirror of Fates favour (siphon CP from enemy on a 5+, when favoured change a hit/wound/save roll to a 6 once per round)
1 of them has Blessing of 1000 Poxes favour (auto-wound in melee on hits of 6, when favoured also get it for shooting)

2x Stalkers with Havocs
1 has Claw+Spear loadout, Veil of Medrengard heirloom (4++ in shooting and 6++ in melee) and Blessing of the Dark Master favour (no rerolls against model, when favoured gain Transhitman)
1 has Chain+Chain loadout

3x Brigands with Havocs
1 has Mark of the Dread Knight favour (6+++, when favoured upgrade to 5+++)

1x Moirax Dreadblade
This guy has 2 gravity guns and the Aura of Corruption favour (-1S bubble, when favoured also -1T bubble) as well as Biomechanical Fusion fell bond (gets Daemonic Surge)

Feeling pretty good about my list, the deep striking Karnivore is a really great threat that is working well and the other ignores invulns Karnivore seems to make the opponent very nervous even if he doesn't always get to where he wants to go. 4 Executioners puts out a lot of firepower, and D3 is great at shredding stuff that has FnP.

Edit: Beat Votann, although not the optimized list (only 1 Fortress, 30 little miners, and 9 bikes)

So.... is it just me or does it look like imperial knights got the sweeter deal for the 10th ed index era? Relying on failed battleshock tests to get the most out of our rules seems extremely unreliable.

The Imperials have more survivability, and the Chaos have better objective Control.

I have a non-aligned Houselhold (meaning that I used that almost exclusively as Imperial), but with the obscene focus that GW put on Wardogs and Armigers recently I'm moving to Chaos Knight, at least in the beginning of the edition. Chaos Knight have some Abhorrent class that doesn't rely on War Dogs (like the Abhorrent).

That said, even if it is a CAAC list (mainly due to the fact that I would like to field at least once my entire 5 Knight as the variant that I purchased in 7th) I believe think there could be some merit pushing 1990 pt of Abhorrent and Cerastus class, like:
- Cerastus Acheron
- Desecrator
- Abhorrent
- Rampager
- Megaera

In theory, almost any unit for the opponent will have to test for Battleshock, and that would help with objective control.

An alternative would be to fit 4 Knight within 1740 points (swapping some version for other more pricey, like a Styrix for a Megaera, and using Enhancements - that would increase the amounts of battleshock test needed) filling the remaining points with some Chaos Demons or Demon Engine of some kind to stay on the high toughness theme.

Points have just gone up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/05/warhammer-40000-updates-changes-to-strands-of-fate-towering-units-and-more/

Well, it was nice while it lasted.

Before: I can fit my entire Chaos Knight army into a 3000 point list.

Now: Nope!

New 10th edition thread here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/810644.page