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 cuda1179 wrote:
I haven't played my Dark Eldar since 5th Edition. Didn't Raiders used to have a deep strike ability? If they brought that back, and let passengers disembark on the same turn (drop pod style), would that help at all?

GW took away 80% (subjective amount) of all special rules to make them cost a new point system called CP (Command Points) you have a limited amount of these points and you can spend them on many things called Stratagems. Almost all Fly units and flying vehicles lost DS for a stratagem to let X amount DS for X amount of CP. GW

Disembark is now before movement, DS is end of movement, many of us has ask for Raiders to get Disembark after movements, but I don't think GW will give it to us sadly. Here is hoping for at least a stratagem to do that.

PS welcome back. 5th was my favorite book for DE, though i love 5th, the missions are a lot better in 9th IMO.

Oh boy, Lelith is so bad

I repeat, she's WORSE than an Eversor...

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I repeat, she's WORSE than an Eversor...

...how so? Obviously we don't know if she keeps the 3++, but presumably so, meaning she's still slightly more difficult to kill usually even with lower T and W, and with an average of 16 S4 AP-3 D1 attacks she does quite a bit more damage...

the_scotsman wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
I repeat, she's WORSE than an Eversor...

...how so? Obviously we don't know if she keeps the 3++, but presumably so, meaning she's still slightly more difficult to kill usually even with lower T and W, and with an average of 16 S4 AP-3 D1 attacks she does quite a bit more damage...

She doesn't kill a Gravis on average since the double fight thing only activates on kill

Maybe she's not meant to kill Gravis armor...

 Denegaar wrote:
Maybe she's not meant to kill Gravis armor...

Right, she's meant to counter gak units that you already do with minimum effort!

Lets Jack her up and make her as ugly AF, and give her 1D.....

She certainly isn’t great, but she’s there to take out 1 wound infantry, not space marines. And she’s at least decent at that.

I’m interested to see what her model looks like without that terrible paint job

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
She certainly isn’t great, but she’s there to take out 1 wound infantry, not space marines. And she’s at least decent at that.

Which seems a bit odd for the queen of gladiators. It would be like a Big Game Hunter being great against imperial guard while sucking against every monster in the game.

Or Khan the Betrayer only excelling against vehicles.

Hopefully she still has "A League Apart", to reroll failed attacks and wounds vs characters.

 vipoid wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
She certainly isn’t great, but she’s there to take out 1 wound infantry, not space marines. And she’s at least decent at that.

Which seems a bit odd for the queen of gladiators. It would be like a Big Game Hunter being great against imperial guard while sucking against every monster in the game.

Or Khan the Betrayer only excelling against vehicles.

She's got A League Apart to duel characters, and she can shred chaff. She's bad against elite but non-character infantry, and monsters.

...This seems fine to me, Idk. She's got to be bad against something, and given that she fights with regular knives, I don't particularly expect her to be amazing without strats vs giant monsters.

A bit boring if 2 of our 3 special characters' "signature things' are going to be double fighting. But she's reasonably durable with 5w and 3++ and perfectly capable of taking on standard marine HQs with a league apart, at least given multiple rounds of combat (which she'll probably get, thanks to no escape).

I don't necessarily need her to be a 100% better version of Drazar. I'm OK with them being good against different targets, and Drazar is obviously a marine munching machine now.

How the command phase tings work if she is in a trasport?

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
She certainly isn’t great, but she’s there to take out 1 wound infantry, not space marines. And she’s at least decent at that.

Which seems a bit odd for the queen of gladiators. It would be like a Big Game Hunter being great against imperial guard while sucking against every monster in the game.

Or Khan the Betrayer only excelling against vehicles.

She's got A League Apart to duel characters, and she can shred chaff. She's bad against elite but non-character infantry, and monsters.

...This seems fine to me, Idk. She's got to be bad against something, and given that she fights with regular knives, I don't particularly expect her to be amazing without strats vs giant monsters.

A bit boring if 2 of our 3 special characters' "signature things' are going to be double fighting. But she's reasonably durable with 5w and 3++ and perfectly capable of taking on standard marine HQs with a league apart, at least given multiple rounds of combat (which she'll probably get, thanks to no escape).

I don't necessarily need her to be a 100% better version of Drazar. I'm OK with them being good against different targets, and Drazar is obviously a marine munching machine now.

Your making some assumptions I would be hesitant to make myself.

Your assuming she still has a league apart, furthermore that it works the same.

You also assumed her invulberable save is still a 3++

Seeing as the trend this edition is removing the 3++ invulns I wouldn't bank on that, she will probably have something to make up for it (maybe -1 to hit) but I personally am being conservative with my expectations. Safer that way and less of a shock if she does lose things.

We already can observe changes to her gear and abilities. Natural prefection used to be combat drugs of a different name since she is straight edge in the fluff. Now she can fight twice if she kills a model or advance/fall back and charge. So I am not banking on a league apart remaining the same if it even still exists.

I don't like that they are going to the same bag of tricks with the fight twice, but worse yet are the limitations. BTW your also assuming draz fights twice still, that hasn't been leaked yet and for all we know he lost it and they gave it to lelith now (only with awful restrictions).

I sincerely hope she can still take an impaler as well as the rerolls verse characters. Maybe she did, but I am not thrilled by what was leaked.

I was kind of scared when I saw her adversary in the box was a sisters leutenant. I mean, it makes sense now, she could kill a palantine but I'll be honeslt, a canoness could drop her lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
How the command phase tings work if she is in a trasport?

Same as every other ability.

If a model is inside a transport then for all intents and purposes they are not on the battlefield (pretend they are in your carrying case still and not deployed)

So she won't get the ability which makes her even worse lol.

The fact that you're willing to make the assumption that she can't kill a canoness, but not willing to make an assumption that she will retain a special ability that she has right now, despite this following the exact same pattern as the Jain Zar preview (where they showed all her new and changed abilities and didn't show the old ones that stayed the same) just makes discussion a bit silly, honestly.

Saying "she can't kill a canoness" is also a positive claim.

She might benefit from cult traits. Say +1 S.

 Niiai wrote:
She might benefit from cult traits. Say +1 S.

Everything involving army traits atm is a gigantic ????????????????

We know from the FW rules that they're keeping the <kabal> <cult> <coven> split but they have stated you can freely mix now, so I have absolutely zero idea how that's actually going to land.

I will say my money's on "can get the Cult of Strife trait, can include in any drukhari detachment traitless without breaking traits" like Ghaz, Shadowsun etc.

I like what I'm seeing. Not because she looks amazing or anything like that, but what I see feels more "thought" than before.

It made no sense that "Natural Perfection" was just pick your drug, even if you don't do drugs. It seems more fun to pick one of those new options... and more adaptable depending on the round.

It really looks like the queen of Wyches now.


@Red_Corsair: I think her ability works in a transport. As long as I remember, transports were FAQd so embarked units couldn't be affected by other units abilities, but it doesn't say anything about abilities working on themselves.



Not sure though, maybe she is just not there and can't be picked or something.

This is where new factions begin to completely lose their minds if their new releases aren't as earth shattering as the last release.

This is why jacking up the killiness and toughness in 9th was a bad idea. Everyone was Expecting her to be a godkiller, and she's barely a BL character statline. Can we at least get the codex before we declare her trash and throw out the entire box?

the_scotsman wrote:
The fact that you're willing to make the assumption that she can't kill a canoness, but not willing to make an assumption that she will retain a special ability that she has right now, despite this following the exact same pattern as the Jain Zar preview (where they showed all her new and changed abilities and didn't show the old ones that stayed the same) just makes discussion a bit silly, honestly.

Saying "she can't kill a canoness" is also a positive claim.

You keep referencing a book from over a year ago, in another edition as if that holds any merit on the discussion.

Your also mis representing my statement.

All I am saying is I personally approach these previews conservatively. So I don't assume rules far beyond whats leaked. And given what we see leaked, and the fact she's matched against a sisters level LT, I think she would struggle to kill a canoness.

I don't care if you find that silly BTW, I am not making it personal, just explaining my approach.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
She might benefit from cult traits. Say +1 S.

Everything involving army traits atm is a gigantic ????????????????

See this is the picking an choosing of assumptions I don't agree with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Denegaar wrote:
I like what I'm seeing. Not because she looks amazing or anything like that, but what I see feels more "thought" than before.

It made no sense that "Natural Perfection" was just pick your drug, even if you don't do drugs. It seems more fun to pick one of those new options... and more adaptable depending on the round.

It really looks like the queen of Wyches now.


@Red_Corsair: I think her ability works in a transport. As long as I remember, transports were FAQd so embarked units couldn't be affected by other units abilities, but it doesn't say anything about abilities working on themselves.

Spoiler:

*Page 210 – Embark
Change the second sentence of the second paragraph to read:
‘Unless specifically stated, other units’ abilities have no effect on
units while they are embarked, and Stratagems cannot be used to
affect units while they are embarked.’

Not sure though.

I may be missing a FAQ somewhere so I am open to the idea, however that info you shared wouldn't fix the problem. If she's in a transport then she isn't on the table, so you cannot select her in the command phase.

It's more an issue with how transport work currently. Basically occupants are treated as if they are off the table in reserve, it just seems strange because in your head they should be inside it literally.

But if someone can help show where it was addressed and how I would be as happy as I am sure you would be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
This is where new factions begin to completely lose their minds if their new releases aren't as earth shattering as the last release.

This is why jacking up the killiness and toughness in 9th was a bad idea. Everyone was Expecting her to be a godkiller, and she's barely a BL character statline. Can we at least get the codex before we declare her trash and throw out the entire box?

I don't think shes trash, in fact I would argue that at her current price she shouldn't be much more killy depending on how shes intended to function. If she lacks auras (I am hoping all succubus become more like a company champion not aura characters) then I think she needs to function at a tad higher efficiency. If she keeps aura buffing cult units I think it's too much to expect her to duel other duelists AND be a buffer.

I will mirror Denegaar's remarks and agree it's a positive sign that her rules are at least thoughtfully designed regardless of how efficient or valid she ends up on the other side.

The FAQ specifically addressed the claim that you're making right now: That units inside transports are basically "off the table" and even their own abilities don't take effect. Units embarked within transports now retain their own abilities. This is most common with Open Topped transports - for example, Ork Tankbustas retaining their ability to re-roll wound rolls vs vehicles - but also would apply here, if Lelith was in a transport during the Command phase.

Nothing in her rules states you need to "Select Her" in the command phase. She just has a special ability that you choose one of two effects in each command phase, functionally it's no different than if she had any other special rule.

Assuming that Lelith will be able to choose her army trait, unlike every other special character that has existed since 8th edition began, is basing assumptions about her abilites conservatively.

A space marine captain with one upgrade - say, a Lightning Claw - is 90pts. Given that marine captain auras effect most of the space marine army roster, it's fairly safe to assume that lelith will have somewhat better damage output than a lightning claw armed captain to compensate, but that her damage output compared to Drazar at 135pts will be less.

the_scotsman wrote:
The FAQ specifically addressed the claim that you're making right now: That units inside transports are basically "off the table" and even their own abilities don't take effect. Units embarked within transports now retain their own abilities. This is most common with Open Topped transports - for example, Ork Tankbustas retaining their ability to re-roll wound rolls vs vehicles - but also would apply here, if Lelith was in a transport during the Command phase.

Nothing in her rules states you need to "Select Her" in the command phase. She just has a special ability that you choose one of two effects in each command phase, functionally it's no different than if she had any other special rule.

Assuming that Lelith will be able to choose her army trait, unlike every other special character that has existed since 8th edition began, is basing assumptions about her abilites conservatively.

A space marine captain with one upgrade - say, a Lightning Claw - is 90pts. Given that marine captain auras effect most of the space marine army roster, it's fairly safe to assume that lelith will have somewhat better damage output than a lightning claw armed captain to compensate, but that her damage output compared to Drazar at 135pts will be less.

Thanks for clearing things up.

I would like to point out that Tyranids have different army traits that can be applied to named characters. Dark Eldar 'only' have 3 named characters. They could rule that she gets what ever wytch trait you are fielding her in. Or that she always have what she currently have +1 attack. I think what we are really hoping for is some way to make her D2 or S+1.

All in all I just want an internaly and externaly balanced codex.

the_scotsman wrote:
The FAQ specifically addressed the claim that you're making right now: That units inside transports are basically "off the table" and even their own abilities don't take effect. Units embarked within transports now retain their own abilities. This is most common with Open Topped transports - for example, Ork Tankbustas retaining their ability to re-roll wound rolls vs vehicles - but also would apply here, if Lelith was in a transport during the Command phase.

Nothing in her rules states you need to "Select Her" in the command phase. She just has a special ability that you choose one of two effects in each command phase, functionally it's no different than if she had any other special rule.

Assuming that Lelith will be able to choose her army trait, unlike every other special character that has existed since 8th edition began, is basing assumptions about her abilites conservatively.

A space marine captain with one upgrade - say, a Lightning Claw - is 90pts. Given that marine captain auras effect most of the space marine army roster, it's fairly safe to assume that lelith will have somewhat better damage output than a lightning claw armed captain to compensate, but that her damage output compared to Drazar at 135pts will be less.

No it isn't the same as tank bustas. All your examples are from shooting units, which are granted specific permission by the open topped transport rules.

Timing matters, and the command phase does not occur in the shooting phase. Otherwise you could smite or cast other powers from a transport as well.

As far as any other rules she has, we can go in circles all day. I am in agreement she is definitely getting more rules, what I am never going to agree with you on is the false assumption that any and all her previous rules are likely to remain when they already disproved that by changing her natural perfection rules as well as her statline and weapon profiles.

I could not care less about marine captains with claws at 90 pts. Since when have GW priced units with any sort of external balance, heck they have yet to get a single codex internal balance correct. Want a counter example? I know you also play GSC, hows the abomanant looking? How has he looked since the codex release for that matter?

I am hopeful she will be solid as I actually liked fielding her previously, but I found her leaps and bounds better when equipped with the impaler. Specifically because of the damage 2 and the ap -1 not mattering verse characters who have invuln saves. I am holding out to see her sprue pics because that will ultimately decide it.

I really doubt the sprue has an Impaler in it. All the HQs lately are just monopose.

 Denegaar wrote:
I really doubt the sprue has an Impaler in it. All the HQs lately are just monopose.

The canoness for sisters has a ton of options. The GSC also have the sanctus as well as the newer magus with alternate hand/ weapon options (the magus was aesthetic though).Your more then likely correct, but I mention it because the optional impaler actually fixes her issues verse other elite characters.

She should make character scared to be near her, she should not fight twice, just give her 10+ attacks, re-roll vs infantry and character, and make her 2D always.

Why is the dueling master, the arena champion so bad at 1v1 combat? Why does she have to kill something to fight twice and not just murders everything instantly?

Sure maybe she gets off on blood spilled but on the battlefield vs a character, i think that will get her off WAY MORE lol.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
I really doubt the sprue has an Impaler in it. All the HQs lately are just monopose.

The canoness for sisters has a ton of options. The GSC also have the sanctus as well as the newer magus with alternate hand/ weapon options (the magus was aesthetic though).

The difference, presumably, is that people within the studio actually give a damn about those characters.

I can't remember a special named character with weapon options, TBH. If theres more than old Lelith, I doubt you had more than 2-3 in the entire game.

 Galas wrote:
I can't remember a special named character with weapon options, TBH. If theres more than old Lelith, I doubt you had more than 2-3 in the entire game.

Bjorn, at the very least.