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Kraut…
So my daughter is in high school and is in a play. She plays a German boy in a band called the sour krauts. It has nothing to do with Germans or Germany other than the fact she uses an accent. Someone got their panties in a bunch of the word being potentially offensive.
I figured who better to ask than actual Germans.
So what do you think,,, offensive or not?

I think they may have missed the boat name-wise

https://www.diesauerkrauts.com/

That’s funny
lol 😂

Not German, but yes, like most colloquial names for different nationalities, it's often considered to be offensive, although also as with most similar types of names, it often depends on who is using it, where and how.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Kraut…
So my daughter is in high school and is in a play. She plays a German boy in a band called the sour krauts. It has nothing to do with Germans or Germany other than the fact she uses an accent. Someone got their panties in a bunch of the word being potentially offensive.
I figured who better to ask than actual Germans.
So what do you think,,, offensive or not?

I don't think actual Germans concern themselves much with the contents of American high school plays.

But I could be wrong.

German-Americans basically got vanished after WW I. The German language papers were shut down, parents were afraid to teach their children the "enemy" language (my great-grandparents refused to teach my grandfather, who was annoyed because it would have been useful during WW II), and there used to be a broad-based American tradition of thick skins regarding ethnic humor. So, as the proverbial American of German descent, I'm fine with it.

Well the reason it comes up is because she’s in a competition that will be host to other schools from around the world.

Naaa... we dont care. Krauts is a pretty old slang and I don't know anybody who would take that as offensive. I think we are a bit sensible when it comes to being called Nazis but thats it

Many 'offensive' terms don't actually offend the people being described. What happens is someone gets offended on their behalf and gets all up in arms about it.

Likewise, sometimes the 'up in arms' crowd tries to impose their own terminology on an ethnic group, and the ethnic group is offended by the terminology being imposed. For example, 'latinx'. The Hispanic community in New Mexico HATES the term. They find it offensive and stick to the 'latnio/latina' construct from Spanish. But the 'up in arms' crowd keeps trying to push it 'on their behalf'...


HAVING SAID THAT.

There absolutely are ethnic terms that do offend the ethnic group involved. So unless you know for certain that the group in question won't be offended, it's probably best to not use the term. So the OP is absolutely right to ask the question and find out whether Germans are offended by being called 'krauts'.

And if someone who's NOT German has a complaint, tell them the Germans are perfectly capable of informing us if they're offended, no need for them to take action on behalf of Germany as if they're too helpless to complain...

Side note: when I first heard the slang and its origins- as far as I know it is rooted in our ships carrying Sauerkraut (fermented cabage) instead of Oranges etc. to prevent scurvy I thought "OK... they have a point and it is historically correct. Well played"

Other negative Nicknames from that era as for example goths or huns felt a bit weird because neither were "german" tribes.

Maybe it's personel, maybe it's German pedantery but Kraut being at least historically correct makes it a lot less annoying

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Side note: when I first heard the slang and its origins- as far as I know it is rooted in our ships carrying Sauerkraut (fermented cabage) instead of Oranges etc. to prevent scurvy I thought "OK... they have a point and it is historically correct. Well played"

Other negative Nicknames from that era as for example goths or huns felt a bit weird because neither were "german" tribes.

Maybe it's personel, maybe it's German pedantery but Kraut being at least historically correct makes it a lot less annoying

Yeah, it’s the equivalent of calling British people “Limeys”, which has the exact same historical derivation. And I don’t think anyone* in the UK would be particularly offended by the use of that term, particularly in the context of a slightly amusing band name pun.

* except that one guy, who gets offended at basically anything whilst being massively patronising and condescending. feth that guy.

This can be a sticky one. Not German, but Scottish myself.

A lot can be contextual. If a friend mocks my accent when we’re mucking around? That’s fine. But if it’s a stranger? Not so much.

Something like Still Game, a Scottish sitcom can send up Scottish tropes and stereotypes. An English sitcom with a stereotyped Scottish character, not so much.

And that’s just for me. The next Scot is by no means beholden to my standards, nor me to theirs. And it’s certainly not for a non-Scot to tell me what I can and can’t find offensive or upsetting. Ever.

I'm not sure how much actual Germans are even exposed to the term. As Pyroalchi said, kraut is pretty old. These days we have the Internet, which makes things easier, but when I grew up I was completely unfamiliar with the term. You wouldn't hear it from the Americans around here and as the large market Germany is, imported American cultural products generally got translated or dubbed. I'm going off hazy memory, but I don't think kraut tended to make it into dubbed war movies at the time. That would have been the prime method of exposing people to it at the time.

Back then things were pretty chill around here, too. West Germany was a Western democracy since my parents' generation. With the cold war going on, Americans were the good guys, the Russians the bad guys and to us kids, American culture was cool. As far as I experienced it people around here were fine with the French and American occupation forces. It never felt like there was any reason for actual resentment and yelling insults at each other.

Does kraut bother me? No. Not that it's saying much. I'm notoriously hard to offend. But due to my perspective as detailed above, I don't think it's a term that is on people's minds and shouldn't be offensive to normal people.

I'll also add the caveat that we went through the dread days of 90s PC culture since I was a kid and have done our best to import American social issues like we don't have any of our own, so I don't feel confident speaking for the younger generations who grew up in a different environment.

thank you all.
I think we americans have a tendency to be offended for people even when said people aren't actually offended themselves.
it would be a shame imho for her team to have made it to the third round of a state and now national competition to change their whole skit for something that MIGHT upset someone according to one person.
but i digress... teens will be teens

What is wrong with Sauerkraut? Or Kraut.

Yes, we happen to eat it, you lot should try it. There's worse things you could call a "german".

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
thank you all.
I think we americans have a tendency to be offended for people even when said people aren't actually offended themselves.
it would be a shame imho for her team to have made it to the third round of a state and now national competition to change their whole skit for something that MIGHT upset someone according to one person.
but i digress... teens will be teens

It is mildly concerning that people get ever more uppset about what was once more than perfectly acceptable humor and people regard them as if they were actually right, not because it's actually insulting but rather because that type of person wants to wield it as a form of supposedly morally correct power to shut something down they actually don't give a toss about.

Not Online!!! wrote:
What is wrong with Sauerkraut? Or Kraut.

Yes, we happen to eat it, you lot should try it.

Yeah... pickled cabbage is not for me, I don't see the appeal. My partner loves it and has a particular fondness for drinking the brine. I am told this is not unusual in Central Europe...

@Not Online!! - agreed on all points
being of German decent myself i grew up on sauerkraut so yes please.
@Haighus - the juice is good... right up there with dill pickle juice

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
@Not Online!! - agreed on all points
being of German decent myself i grew up on sauerkraut so yes please.
@Haighus - the juice is good... right up there with dill pickle juice

I'll stick to the juice from tinned sweetcorn

You can also keep the juice and put cucumber in it for some nice pickled cucumbers. And yes, it's pretty common to drink it. You even get it in bottles and tetrapacks in the supermarket. Also works quite well if you have trouble with your bowel movement.

On the topic: I think a lot of the meaning comes with Intent, tone and delivery. I personally would be willing to take a lot from some school children in a play without being offended. It might be different if it is coming from an adult right in my face with the intention to hurt or ridicule me. But even then, if Kraut is the best slur you know, you need to get better material

 Haighus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
What is wrong with Sauerkraut? Or Kraut.

Yes, we happen to eat it, you lot should try it.

Yeah... pickled cabbage is not for me, I don't see the appeal. My partner loves it and has a particular fondness for drinking the brine. I am told this is not unusual in Central Europe...

Cabbage salad i also can reccomend.
And as for the pickling, there's ways to make it actually good.

Nah, nobody would care over here. The term "Krauts" isn't present in German culture at all. It's seen as more of a quaint historical sidenote rather than as a derogatory term.

 BertBert wrote:
Nah, nobody would care over here. The term "Krauts" isn't present in German culture at all. It's seen as more of a quaint historical sidenote than a derogatory term.

Now i am curious how'd they react about internal - german terms

Not Online!!! wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
Nah, nobody would care over here. The term "Krauts" isn't present in German culture at all. It's seen as more of a quaint historical sidenote than a derogatory term.

Now i am curious how'd they react about internal - german terms

Oh, there is still plenty of idnignation about other terms, Krauts is just not one of them.

As a fellow Scot I fully agree with what Doc says. Most Scots tend to be fairly thick skinned and tend to poke fun at ourselves, the problems start to happen when our Southern neighbours try to do it and think they're funny, they're not. It's only a joke if the intended target finds it funny and when allegedly funny English comedians try to put on a Scottish accent it's never funny.
If they're so sure they're funny come to Glasgow and then try it, you'll definitely get a reaction. My own pet hate is people who take offence on my behalf. As I'm disabled it happens frequently and it's never appreciated, if I find it offensive I'll deal with it myself. To the point of the conversation I asked my wife, who is German, if she found kraut offensive. Her reply " is that the best you can come up with?" She said that growing up she never heard it until she moved here and saw Hollywood war films. Her father who was old enough to have lived through the later part of WW2 truly hated the German forces being labelled Nazis as he correctly said this was a label for their government not people, it would be like calling all UK people Tories which we obviously all aren't. Try calling Glaswegians Tories and then see how they react to an insult.

I want to make a distinction between being offended on someone’s behalf and just not tolerating bigotry.

For example, I had a coworker who decided, when we were alone in the break room, to tell me a joke that was more than a bit racist and also a bit pro-KKK. My response was something like “okay.” because I wasn’t sure if he was doing that ironic racism that was so popular at the time. It wasn’t. He became offended that I didn’t think it was funny, which lead to an accusation of being offended on their behalf since I’m not black. I wasn’t offended on anyone’s behalf—I just dislike bigotry of all forms and don’t want bigots to attempt to make me complicit.

Jaxmeister wrote:
Try calling Glaswegians Tories and then see how they react to an insult.

But make sure you get someone to film it. Please.

Going back to the OP, I think there is a clear difference between committing a cultural error out of ignorance vs deliberate attempts to offend.

Not long ago, people let that kind of thing go, because there are always going to be misunderstandings. You tell a joke and falls flat. Ugh.

The issue is that excessive concern over making sure everything is okay means that no one takes risks and therefore creativity suffers. Why make a play at all?

The fact is that professional problem-finders will always find problems. The solution is to grow a thicker skin, accept that well-meaning people can inadvertently give offense, and just roll with it.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has had people make stunningly offensive statements without realizing it. I don't even blink. It's not worth making a scene.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I want to make a distinction between being offended on someone’s behalf and just not tolerating bigotry.

For example, I had a coworker who decided, when we were alone in the break room, to tell me a joke that was more than a bit racist and also a bit pro-KKK. My response was something like “okay.” because I wasn’t sure if he was doing that ironic racism that was so popular at the time. It wasn’t. He became offended that I didn’t think it was funny, which lead to an accusation of being offended on their behalf since I’m not black. I wasn’t offended on anyone’s behalf—I just dislike bigotry of all forms and don’t want bigots to attempt to make me complicit.

An excellent point and important distinction.

On a related note about being offended on others' behalf, my wife's heritage in Mongolian. Mongolian babies have a blueish spot on their backs when they're born. This is called a Mongolian Spot. She was most amused when our son was born and the midwives and nurses were all very careful to avoid using the term because it was seen as "racist". They seemed equally shocked when she pointed out that literally everyone she knows from the same ethnic group calls it a Mongolian Spot and not a single one would be offended by the term.

I got the distinct impression this was some sort of committee decision, reached by a group of middle-class white dudes who never bothered to ask the "affected" group about their opinion. Which is kind of ironic, really.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Kraut…
So my daughter is in high school and is in a play. She plays a German boy in a band called the sour krauts. It has nothing to do with Germans or Germany other than the fact she uses an accent. Someone got their panties in a bunch of the word being potentially offensive.
I figured who better to ask than actual Germans.
So what do you think,,, offensive or not?

My daughter was in a band in high school called the Frogs. They sang songs like La Mer, sped them up while making fun of them, and repeated silly French stereotypes on stage. The lead singer dressed like a mime and wore an oversized beret.

The lead singer was French. The point was to be low-level offensive about his own culture.

I don't understand the point of treating offense like a sin.

@ Commissar and Slipspace:

Making offensive statements out of ignorance, and then blinking and moving on implies an unwillingness to learn and to improve one's behaviour in future. An individual may only make a couple of such mistakes, but the recipient may be bombarded with that kind of thing endlessly. This can have a damaging effect on the recipient, and where that individual is part of a relatively small minority this damage might be going on all their life.

People "getting offended on others' behalf" is one route by which the experience of some can be shared with others.

I agree that it can go too far sometimes, but I don't think the process itself should be ridiculed.

To me, not making assumptions about whether something might offend the recipient indicates a certain level of politeness. I would prefer to make the mistake of being too concerned over the impact of my actions, rather than not concerned enough.

Making an assumption that its a stupid rule made up by white middle class males also denigrates the efforts made by organisations to bring diversity and inclusion into the mainstream by explicitly consulting with minorities that contribute to their efforts, or are affected by their work.