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Hey guys, I've been collecting Eldar for a long time and have acquired almost all of the different versions of the Avatar of Khaine (including the original Rogue Trader version), though I've never got round to properly painting any of them. I was thinking of painting all of them up at once, but for different Craftworlds - and it got me to thinking: the Avatars are formed from the spiritual energy of the people living in the Craftworld (brought into being by the ritual sacrifice of an exarch, yada, yada), so is there anything to be said for each Craftworld's Avatar being different physical sizes based on the population size? For example, Craftworld Iyanden having so few people left alive, would that affect the size of their Avatar, making them smaller than a Craftworld like, say, Biel Tan? Would Biel Tan have a larger Avatar because they have so many of their populace devoted to the aspect paths? Would Yme Loc's avatar be smaller, due to their specific devotion to Vaul, who was clearly antagonistic to Khaine? Would the number of souls in the Craftworld's infinity circuit have any bearing on the size of the Avatar? Or would just a tiny unknown Craftworld have a tiny, barely larger than eldar(human)-sized Avatar?

Basically, I'm trying to think of ways to justify each model being painted for a particular Craftworld and wondering which Craftworld would realistically have which size.

Interesting idea, but I don't think it works. The Avatar is not formed from the psychic power of its craftworld. It's a physical vessel made of iron. When the craftworld is preparing for war, the Avatar begins to awaken and this is felt by all the inhabitants of the craftworld. I don't think there's a feedback effect where the size of the population is able to resize the vessel. It's not, as far as we know, made from any psychoactive material like wraithbone. We also don't know exactly what happens to the young king to complete the process of waking the Avatar.

I think there's room for the idea that a given craftworld could decide to build a larger vessel for the Avatar, but we don't know how that works. The craftworld itself and all their vehicles and ships are made from wraithbone. Who makes the Avatar? Are there actual metal smiths? Is that a path? We know Avatars are destroyed all the time since they are the perfect opponent for heroes to destroy without real consequence in the setting as shown by the BL novels. So craftworlds have to replace fallen Avatars from time to time, but we have no information on how that happens.

I don’t think I’ve ever read anything stating that the size is variable. But the way the 40k universe works it’s not that big a stretch for headcannon. I’d buy it.

But it’s all a bit of a moot point. We all know scale creep is a myth!

Hmmm, okay, thanks. Do you have a source for the Avatar existing as an iron vessel before its awakening? I don't think I've read any lore regarding that, but I might have just missed/forgotten/not picked up on it.

 CancelledApocalypse wrote:
Hmmm, okay, thanks. Do you have a source for the Avatar existing as an iron vessel before its awakening? I don't think I've read any lore regarding that, but I might have just missed/forgotten/not picked up on it.

I'm at work so I don't have my codices at hand. Checking Lexicanum, its Avatar entry is contradictory. It says when Khaine's essence was dismantled, it was scattered across the craftworlds and in each craftworld a wraithbone artefact was created. The artefact lets the eldar summon Khaine when needed. Later it says the Avatar is a being of super heated iron with a molten lava core. It also says that when destroyed its essence reforms in the craftworld. So that kinda rules out having it made by artisans in custom sizes. But it's your hobby do what you want. As a practical matter the Avatar's size is probably best tied to the era of codex you are using. The current big plastic model feels awkward for games of 3rd-8th when he just wasn't all that powerful.

Edit:
Pulled out the 2nd edition codex which is where I go for all the original lore. This is what it has to say about the Avatar


Which largely remains the same up through 8th edition.


9th changes it up quite a bit and talks about a feedback loop between the inhabitants of the craftworld and the Avatar and how the exarchs ultimately decide whether to awaken the Avatar fully or not. It still describes the physical form as being iron.

Thanks for that, and thanks Nev, too!

I always understood the Avatar to be constructed of semi-molten metal, I just wasn't sure where that metal came from. I somewhat doubt there is an eldar artisan rebuilding/resculpting an iron form every time the Avatar dies (I mean, what eldar would be able to do that without quickly going mad due to proximity with the Aeldari embodiment of murder?), I think it makes much more sense and fits better with lore that some mystical process brings the iron form into being - sort of like how the aspect shrines are almost semi-sentient and dormant shrines come alive when its time to acquire a new exarch. But yeah, totally with you now on the Avatar sitting on a throne waiting. I think I had just forgotten that particular bit of lore...

@Nev, if ANY model has suffered from scale creep, it's the Avatar of Khaine! The first Avatar model was tiny in comparison and there has been a big leap in size between each new iteration. It's got to the point where some lore doesn't really make sense - I mean Fulgrim was supposed to have strangled an Avatar to death - have you seen the difference in size between the two models? He'd have had to have been standing on primarch sized stepladders and wearing extra big power mittens to do it!

My scale creep comments are a firmly tounge-in-cheek running gag. While I never had the old man-sized version of the avatar, mine is metal and came with a square base. The new guy is looking riptides/wraithknights in the eye?

The avatar, like greater demons and many other models, have had some very significant glow ups over the years. Both scale and stat creep had some pretty big gaps in time for the avatar. Glad to see him caught up.

I’m not sure that just because wraithbone is used extensively that metal production is no longer relevant. I’m sure metals will be used extensively in Eldar art, and given their general level of intelligence it would like seem weird to lose all sense of basic chemistry and metallurgy.

I mean iron is about as basic a metal as you can get. Need a new Avatar? Go find a handy asteroid.

 Nevelon wrote:
My scale creep comments are a firmly tounge-in-cheek running gag. While I never had the old man-sized version of the avatar, mine is metal and came with a square base. The new guy is looking riptides/wraithknights in the eye?

The avatar, like greater demons and many other models, have had some very significant glow ups over the years. Both scale and stat creep had some pretty big gaps in time for the avatar. Glad to see him caught up.

Oh, absolutely, and yeah, I knew you were making a joke, I was just running with it

Actually, the metal one with the square base is the one I really need (that, and the FW resin one with the spear). I have one, but it's really old and it's been a bit broken, plus the previous owner tried to magnetise the sword arm for some reason, which didn't work at all and doesn't stay in the right position. I was lucky to get a rogue trader metal Avatar in a bulk lot of Eldar on ebay and even luckier that it's good quality. I'm just not sure which Craftworld to paint it... Yme Loc, maybe?

 Flinty wrote:
I’m not sure that just because wraithbone is used extensively that metal production is no longer relevant. I’m sure metals will be used extensively in Eldar art, and given their general level of intelligence it would like seem weird to lose all sense of basic chemistry and metallurgy.

I mean iron is about as basic a metal as you can get. Need a new Avatar? Go find a handy asteroid.

Totally agree, certainly in the field of fashion and jewellery they'd use precious metals and such. Not so sure about general construction as they are easily able to make wraithbone into any shape and even use it as circuitry from what I remember. They would also use organics which would need mineral nutrients, soil and such, so there would likely be whole biomes on the Craftworlds including soil, rock, minerals and ores - they are continent sized spacecraft, after all.

I still don't necessarily think they would 'craft' an Avatar, however...

Not sure. It's never specified if Khaine's scattered pieces were all equal in size. You could justify smaller/larger Avatars based on just that.

You'd be better off using the original Avatar as a Harlequin, although I haven't been keeping up with the codex well enough to suggest if you would want to have it count as a character or just be a regular troupe member.

 solkan wrote:
You'd be better off using the original Avatar as a Harlequin, although I haven't been keeping up with the codex well enough to suggest if you would want to have it count as a character or just be a regular troupe member.

Funny, harlies had “high avatars” instead of troupe leaders back in the day.

It’s an interesting question, and I don’t think we have a firm canonical answer.

But we do know the Avatar’s awakening affect the population of a Craftworld, making them more aggressive and warlike.

That to me at least suggests a two way street of psychic activity. And so, a more densely populated Craftworld may well empower an Avatar more than say, Iyanden. To what degree I couldn’t say, because we’re still talking about a fragment of a war god, which strikes me as inherently powerful.

 Nevelon wrote:

 solkan wrote:
You'd be better off using the original Avatar as a Harlequin, although I haven't been keeping up with the codex well enough to suggest if you would want to have it count as a character or just be a regular troupe member.

Funny, harlies had “high avatars” instead of troupe leaders back in the day.

Harlies had Avatars and High avatars before the craftworlders did. Harlies got written up in around WD95/96 - the craftworlds got their rebooting/revision in WD127 (1990) about 3 years later - with the whole aspect paths, warlocks, farseers and Avatars.

It seems plausible... but also a bit Orkish. On the other hand, both Eldar and Orks were Old One bioweapon races, so that isn't a huge barrier.

Whilst living Craftworld population could be a factor, the dead population may also play a role given the iron throne is connected to the wraithbone structure of the entire Craftworld. That would suggest it can also influence and be influenced by the Infinity Circuit. So Iyanden could still have a large, powerful Avatar under this theory due to having a very full Infinity Circuit.

I don't think the throne being described as iron means it must literally be constructed of the element iron. It is a common litary device to describe objects with a particular vibe and it is more probable that the throne is some kind of manifested warp stuff given the inferences that the Avatar spawns itself in the heart of the Craftworld and it then connects into the wraithbone network via the throne.

 Haighus wrote:

I don't think the throne being described as iron means it must literally be constructed of the element iron. It is a common litary device to describe objects with a particular vibe and it is more probable that the throne is some kind of manifested warp stuff given the inferences that the Avatar spawns itself in the heart of the Craftworld and it then connects into the wraithbone network via the throne.

I don't think it's like Iron Man where his suit is made of some alloy (titanium and gold I believe he says in one of the films). If it was special magic warp stuff it would be stated so. In fantasy settings Elves are often noted as superior craftsmen making the finest weapons and armor from the finest materials (mithril). In 40k we never get told that. We get space elf magicians making things from the very substance of the warp (hell). Actual metallurgy pales in comparison. So I think they are quite clear in meaning that the Avatars are made from iron. They could have made it explicitly special, but they didn't. It's just iron.

However, it's not clear to me that the Eldar made the Avatars at all. The Lexicanum entry states that when Khaine was shattered the shards were scattered to the craftworlds. It's not explained how that worked. How does a shard of a god get turned into a mini-me of the god? C'tan shards have the same issue.

As for variations in power instead of physical size, I can see one possibility. The ritual of awakening is basically summoning a daemon using the young king as the sacrifice. What if the power of the daemon was directly related to the relative power of the exarch? It's not clear to me when the young king is sacrificed if it's just the current soul that is spent or all of them. In Path of the Warrior, Korlandril is the eighth body in the exarch suit made for Morlaniath exarch of Hidden Death. If Morlaniath is young king when the call to war comes are all eight souls spent to awaken the Avatar? If so, could an Avatar awakened by that sacrifice be more powerful than one awakened by a single soul sacrifice?

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

I don't think the throne being described as iron means it must literally be constructed of the element iron. It is a common litary device to describe objects with a particular vibe and it is more probable that the throne is some kind of manifested warp stuff given the inferences that the Avatar spawns itself in the heart of the Craftworld and it then connects into the wraithbone network via the throne.

I don't think it's like Iron Man where his suit is made of some alloy (titanium and gold I believe he says in one of the films). If it was special magic warp stuff it would be stated so. In fantasy settings Elves are often noted as superior craftsmen making the finest weapons and armor from the finest materials (mithril). In 40k we never get told that. We get space elf magicians making things from the very substance of the warp (hell). Actual metallurgy pales in comparison. So I think they are quite clear in meaning that the Avatars are made from iron. They could have made it explicitly special, but they didn't. It's just iron.

However, it's not clear to me that the Eldar made the Avatars at all. The Lexicanum entry states that when Khaine was shattered the shards were scattered to the craftworlds. It's not explained how that worked. How does a shard of a god get turned into a mini-me of the god? C'tan shards have the same issue.

Well, if the shard of a warp god appears within a Craftworld, it suggests the physical form is not a realspace element. As does the throne connecting to the wraithbone.

Also, I think you are underselling iron here Bearing in mind the gaelic influences on the Eldar, iron is of special significance to fae folk in Irish mythology. It is generally seen as anathema to elves. So a fragment of the shattered Eldar god of war mysteriously appearing in the heart of a Craftworld, made of a material of dark foreboding and stark contrast to its surroundings, seems to be the impression they were going for.

As for variations in power instead of physical size, I can see one possibility. The ritual of awakening is basically summoning a daemon using the young king as the sacrifice. What if the power of the daemon was directly related to the relative power of the exarch? It's not clear to me when the young king is sacrificed if it's just the current soul that is spent or all of them. In Path of the Warrior, Korlandril is the eighth body in the exarch suit made for Morlaniath exarch of Hidden Death. If Morlaniath is young king when the call to war comes are all eight souls spent to awaken the Avatar? If so, could an Avatar awakened by that sacrifice be more powerful than one awakened by a single soul sacrifice?

Very plausible.

I’m not sure it’s always an Exarch called as the Young King? It could be something changed in the background, but I’m fairly certain it was at least once any Eldar that could receive the call and become the sacrifice?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not sure it’s always an Exarch called as the Young King? It could be something changed in the background, but I’m fairly certain it was at least once any Eldar that could receive the call and become the sacrifice?

Well, you think you know something and then someone asks a question...

So I was quite sure it was the exarch chosen to serve as the Young King for a year as it says on lexicanum, but maybe it had changed recently. So I start checking. The 9th ed book say "an aspect warrior chosen by the Farseers." So does 8th. And 7th. 6th. 4th. All the way back to 2nd where it says "Summoned by that battlecry, the Exarchs gather at the gates to the Avatar's throne room. They bring with them the Young King, an Aspect Warrior chosen by the Farseers, who stands naked and unarmed,.."

Checking Lexicanum again. Their entry for the Young King is taken from the 3rd Edition Craftworld Eldar codex. On page 21 there's a special unit for Biel-Tan called the Court of the Young King which is a council of Exarchs to accompany the Avatar. Together the Avatar and 3-5 of his closest buddy Exarchs form a single HQ choice. In a side bar on that page:

As well as its Seers, Biel-Tan is also governed by a council know as the court of the Young King. Their number is made up from Exarchs who have spent a year in the honoured position of the Young King. The Young King is ritually sacrificed to awake the raging spirit of the Avatar of Khaine but on Biel-Tan, a Young King who survives the year in office will join the Court rather than return to tend their Shrine. The Exarchs of the Court are highly hostile all outsiders, as one might expect, and it is they who have led to the aggressive nature of the Biel-Tan Craftworld.

So it's only a Biel-Tan thing to waste an Exarch to awaken the Avatar. This appears to sort of still be true in the 9th ed book. It says:

Among the craftworld's ruling authorities is the Court of the Young King, a body of Exarchs who have all in their time held its titular role. The Young King is a year-long position fulfilled by an Aspect Warrior who, if required, will be sacrificed to rouse the Avatar of Khaine.

That muddies the waters a little bit. Does the Aspect Warrior serve as the Young King and then some time later become an Exarch and then at some point join the Court? That doesn't seem practical. I think it has to be Exarch first, then Young King, and then Court.

 Haighus wrote:
It seems plausible... but also a bit Orkish. On the other hand, both Eldar and Orks were Old One bioweapon races, so that isn't a huge barrier.

Whilst living Craftworld population could be a factor, the dead population may also play a role given the iron throne is connected to the wraithbone structure of the entire Craftworld. That would suggest it can also influence and be influenced by the Infinity Circuit. So Iyanden could still have a large, powerful Avatar under this theory due to having a very full Infinity Circuit.

I don't think the throne being described as iron means it must literally be constructed of the element iron. It is a common litary device to describe objects with a particular vibe and it is more probable that the throne is some kind of manifested warp stuff given the inferences that the Avatar spawns itself in the heart of the Craftworld and it then connects into the wraithbone network via the throne.

Even if it’s elemental iron, frankly it could still be elemental iron summoned from the warp by the power of Khaine.

Khorne had plenty of daemons that spawn with brass this and that, growing an iron statue from nothing but the power of the warp could be well within Khaine’s abilities

@Arschbombe @Mad Doc Grotsnik

I think it's worth pointing out that an exarch IS an aspect warrior... so I'm not sure that quote rules out the Young King always being an exarch. Having said that, it probably doesn't HAVE to be an exarch... I mean, what happens if through some terrible concatenation of circumstances, every exarch on a Craftworld gets killed (not absolutely impossible in a war situation where exarchs are expected to fight in the front lines)? Does that mean the Craftworld can no longer summon a new Avatar?

On the other hand, it seems the ritualistic nature of the summoning of the avatar would suggest the exarchs are the ones involved. Certainly, they would be the ones directing the ritual. They would also be the ones with the mental fortitude to not chicken out when their lives are imminently about to end.

Incidentally, I'm not sure I like the whole "once a year" part of that piece of lore. I mean, what's a year on a Craftworld? Why would you ritualistically wake the Avatar and sacrifice a soul to it every year, just to have it fall back asleep again? It seems a very wasteful practice when there are no wars going on, and, given the intense psychic link the Craftworlders have to the Avatar and the hyper-emotional nature of Eldar in general, potentially harmful to their society.

On a different note, I've just read in the 3rd edition rulebook that when Avatars die in battle, their spirits return to the Craftworld and remain in the inner sanctum until another body is 'grown'.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not sure it’s always an Exarch called as the Young King? It could be something changed in the background, but I’m fairly certain it was at least once any Eldar that could receive the call and become the sacrifice?

Well, you think you know something and then someone asks a question...

So I was quite sure it was the exarch chosen to serve as the Young King for a year as it says on lexicanum, but maybe it had changed recently. So I start checking. The 9th ed book say "an aspect warrior chosen by the Farseers." So does 8th. And 7th. 6th. 4th. All the way back to 2nd where it says "Summoned by that battlecry, the Exarchs gather at the gates to the Avatar's throne room. They bring with them the Young King, an Aspect Warrior chosen by the Farseers, who stands naked and unarmed,.."

There has been a long running discrepancy by several authors and Codex writers over the years about whether it is an Exarch or an Aspect Warrior that takes on the Young King position. It's as if they cannot make up their minds or have different visions for who the sacrifice is.

I personally favor the Young King being an Aspect Warrior for certain thematic reasons. The entire ritual to awaken the Avatar is basically a symbolic re-enactment or reminder of the ancient Eldar hero/Adam-like figure Eldanesh going forth to fight Khaine in the War in Heaven after Vaul is defeated by Khaine. He is ultimately unsuccessful and is killed and his blood is symbolized in the blood of the Cup of Criel. The figure of Eldanesh and the symbolic loss of innocence of the Eldar race is better symbolized IMO by an Aspect Warrior (one not yet lost to the Path of the Warrior) vs. an Exarch (one who is effectively already lost to Khaine).

The whole ritual is basically awakening Khaine's fragment by reminding it of Khaine's greatest victory

 CancelledApocalypse wrote:
@Arschbombe @Mad Doc Grotsnik

I think it's worth pointing out that an exarch IS an aspect warrior... so I'm not sure that quote rules out the Young King always being an exarch. Having said that, it probably doesn't HAVE to be an exarch... I mean, what happens if through some terrible concatenation of circumstances, every exarch on a Craftworld gets killed (not absolutely impossible in a war situation where exarchs are expected to fight in the front lines)? Does that mean the Craftworld can no longer summon a new Avatar?

On the other hand, it seems the ritualistic nature of the summoning of the avatar would suggest the exarchs are the ones involved. Certainly, they would be the ones directing the ritual. They would also be the ones with the mental fortitude to not chicken out when their lives are imminently about to end.

Incidentally, I'm not sure I like the whole "once a year" part of that piece of lore. I mean, what's a year on a Craftworld? Why would you ritualistically wake the Avatar and sacrifice a soul to it every year, just to have it fall back asleep again? It seems a very wasteful practice when there are no wars going on, and, given the intense psychic link the Craftworlders have to the Avatar and the hyper-emotional nature of Eldar in general, potentially harmful to their society.

On a different note, I've just read in the 3rd edition rulebook that when Avatars die in battle, their spirits return to the Craftworld and remain in the inner sanctum until another body is 'grown'.

In the 3rd Ed lore the Young King served for a year, but didn’t necessarily get sacrificed. If there was a war and the Avatar was needed then that was you, but if not and you served out your year then someone else was on the hook.

Craftworld Biel Tan had a ‘’Court of the Young King’ made up of the survivors which was important politically as they had a place of honour.
The 3rd Ed Biel Tan rules let you use it in the game - it was a unit made up of the Avatar plus a group of Exarchs from a mix of shrines.

Ah, okay, that makes more sense

CancelledApocalypse wrote:@Arschbombe @Mad Doc Grotsnik

I think it's worth pointing out that an exarch IS an aspect warrior... so I'm not sure that quote rules out the Young King always being an exarch. Having said that, it probably doesn't HAVE to be an exarch... I mean, what happens if through some terrible concatenation of circumstances, every exarch on a Craftworld gets killed (not absolutely impossible in a war situation where exarchs are expected to fight in the front lines)? Does that mean the Craftworld can no longer summon a new Avatar?

It seems appropriate that the correct soul to sacrifice to awaken the Avatar is one that is already lost to Khaine anyway. Which is kind of an oxymoron. "Lost to Khaine" typically means that one becomes effectively an immortal warrior reincarnated over and over again whenever a new warrior falls and dons the armor. A regular Aspect Warrior is not that. I imagine a regular Aspect Warrior who is not wearing his war mask would be pretty freaked out about being sacrificed to awaken an Avatar. We are never told what happens to them. The Farseers know but will not speak of it. I think the soul is consumed/obliterated by whatever the demonic presence it is that actual inhabits the Avatar frame for whatever duration it lasts.

Which leads to more questions. How long does an Avatar last? Are there any stories of an Avatar returning to the throne room and going dormant again? Can an Avatar be active for weeks on end or does it always fight until destroyed? Speaking of which, there's a Hammer and Bolter episode In the Garden of Ghosts in which an unnamed craftworld is attacked by the Ultramarines. There's a fallen Avatar featured in the story that has died and remained in place until a Warlock touches it to read its psychic imprint. When he does so it turns to ash. I'm not sure how canon these H&B stories are supposed to be, but this contradicts what we've already been told in other sources.

On the other hand, it seems the ritualistic nature of the summoning of the avatar would suggest the exarchs are the ones involved. Certainly, they would be the ones directing the ritual. They would also be the ones with the mental fortitude to not chicken out when their lives are imminently about to end.

The other part of this is that sacrificing a basic Aspect Warrior is not nearly as much of a sacrifice for the craftworld as whole as it is losing an Exarch assuming that the soul(s) lost in the ritual are all of them and all of their combined experience. Losing just the most recent inhabitant of the armor is less costly.

Incidentally, I'm not sure I like the whole "once a year" part of that piece of lore. I mean, what's a year on a Craftworld? Why would you ritualistically wake the Avatar and sacrifice a soul to it every year, just to have it fall back asleep again? It seems a very wasteful practice when there are no wars going on, and, given the intense psychic link the Craftworlders have to the Avatar and the hyper-emotional nature of Eldar in general, potentially harmful to their society.

As Zarkov already pointed out, it's a one year term of office. If the Avatar is not needed during that year, then you're home free so to speak.

We don't know what a year means for Eldar. Do they have an Eldar standard year that relates to the orbit of their original planet? If so it would seem easy enough for them to manage orbital patterns and day/night cycles on a craftworld so that everyone is always on the same date across the entirety of the species except perhaps the exodites.

On a different note, I've just read in the 3rd edition rulebook that when Avatars die in battle, their spirits return to the Craftworld and remain in the inner sanctum until another body is 'grown'.

So back to the original idea presented in the thread: how does one get a bigger Avatar to grow?

Iracundus wrote:
There has been a long running discrepancy by several authors and Codex writers over the years about whether it is an Exarch or an Aspect Warrior that takes on the Young King position. It's as if they cannot make up their minds or have different visions for who the sacrifice is.

Actually, I don't think that is true. From my research for this thread, it's been consistent since 2nd edition. All the codices 2nd through 9th say the same thing. It's an Aspect Warrior chosen by the Farseers. The only discrepancy is with Biel-Tan where we see the Exarch specified as the Young King, but it's not 100% clear. The verbiage changes a little bit. Like in 4th, 6th, and 8th, the Biel Tan section say the same things, Biel Tan has the most Aspect Warriors and the most Exarchs of any craftworld. The Exarchs are responsible for Awakening the Avatar, implying they make the sacrifice, but not saying it explicitly like they did in 3rd. 7th makes no mention of the Court of the Young King.

In Dawn of War 2 Retribution we see a Tyrea, a Howling Banshee Exarch of Biel Tan sacrificed to awaken the Avatar. That's supposedly canon.

I personally favor the Young King being an Aspect Warrior for certain thematic reasons. The entire ritual to awaken the Avatar is basically a symbolic re-enactment or reminder of the ancient Eldar hero/Adam-like figure Eldanesh going forth to fight Khaine in the War in Heaven after Vaul is defeated by Khaine. He is ultimately unsuccessful and is killed and his blood is symbolized in the blood of the Cup of Criel. The figure of Eldanesh and the symbolic loss of innocence of the Eldar race is better symbolized IMO by an Aspect Warrior (one not yet lost to the Path of the Warrior) vs. an Exarch (one who is effectively already lost to Khaine).

The whole ritual is basically awakening Khaine's fragment by reminding it of Khaine's greatest victory

This seems reasonable.

 Arschbombe wrote:


Actually, I don't think that is true. From my research for this thread, it's been consistent since 2nd edition. All the codices 2nd through 9th say the same thing. It's an Aspect Warrior chosen by the Farseers. The only discrepancy is with Biel-Tan where we see the Exarch specified as the Young King, but it's not 100% clear. The verbiage changes a little bit. Like in 4th, 6th, and 8th, the Biel Tan section say the same things, Biel Tan has the most Aspect Warriors and the most Exarchs of any craftworld. The Exarchs are responsible for Awakening the Avatar, implying they make the sacrifice, but not saying it explicitly like they did in 3rd. 7th makes no mention of the Court of the Young King.

In Dawn of War 2 Retribution we see a Tyrea, a Howling Banshee Exarch of Biel Tan sacrificed to awaken the Avatar. That's supposedly canon.

It has not been consistent. In 3rd edition it says Exarch and the Court of the Young King has the sacrifice be an Exarch (and they join the Court if they survive the year in office without being sacrificed). Basically it's Gav Thorpe who is a proponent of the Exarch as Young King as we see the same happen in his novels. When Gav Thorpe has not been in the driver's seat, it's gone back to Aspect Warrior, which is what I prefer anyway.

Does it need to be consistent? Most Craftworlds could use Aspect warriors, and Biel Tan goes the extra mile and uses Exarchs, of which it has the most to choose from anyway.

Iracundus wrote:

It has not been consistent. In 3rd edition it says Exarch and the Court of the Young King has the sacrifice be an Exarch (and they join the Court if they survive the year in office without being sacrificed). Basically it's Gav Thorpe who is a proponent of the Exarch as Young King as we see the same happen in his novels. When Gav Thorpe has not been in the driver's seat, it's gone back to Aspect Warrior, which is what I prefer anyway.

The basic codices have been consistent about it being an Aspect Warrior. The only exception was the 3rd edition Codex: Craftworld Eldar, where the exception was explicitly tied to Biel Tan. That book was written by Gav, Jervis, and Andy. I couldn't find it mentioned anywhere in the 3rd edition Codex: Eldar written solely by Gav. So I think you're a little off in your criticism.

 Arschbombe wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

It has not been consistent. In 3rd edition it says Exarch and the Court of the Young King has the sacrifice be an Exarch (and they join the Court if they survive the year in office without being sacrificed). Basically it's Gav Thorpe who is a proponent of the Exarch as Young King as we see the same happen in his novels. When Gav Thorpe has not been in the driver's seat, it's gone back to Aspect Warrior, which is what I prefer anyway.

The basic codices have been consistent about it being an Aspect Warrior. The only exception was the 3rd edition Codex: Craftworld Eldar, where the exception was explicitly tied to Biel Tan. That book was written by Gav, Jervis, and Andy. I couldn't find it mentioned anywhere in the 3rd edition Codex: Eldar written solely by Gav. So I think you're a little off in your criticism.

It's not even criticism. It's GW history and fact. He was the lead for the 3rd edition Eldar. There was a past interview where he talked about the mess up that was the overpowered Star Cannon and his flawed design philosophy for the entire Eldar list, which shows just how major his role was. Just as Andy Chambers was the lead designer for many previous Codices, such as the seminal 2nd edition Chaos Codex, Gav Thorpe was the lead designer for the 3rd edition Eldar Codex. In those past editions, the lead had a major role in shaping the Codex, with the rest playing more minor roles or input, and GW shifted away from explicit designer credits I think after their designers got too much unwelcome attention after each Codex, especially Matt Ward. So now we don't have "celebrity lead designer" per Codex.

Check out his Eldar novels. Again, they are the only Eldar novels where the Young King is an Exarch.

Iracundus wrote:


It's not even criticism. It's GW history and fact. He was the lead for the 3rd edition Eldar. There was a past interview where he talked about the mess up that was the overpowered Star Cannon and his flawed design philosophy for the entire Eldar list, which shows just how major his role was. Just as Andy Chambers was the lead designer for many previous Codices, such as the seminal 2nd edition Chaos Codex, Gav Thorpe was the lead designer for the 3rd edition Eldar Codex. In those past editions, the lead had a major role in shaping the Codex, with the rest playing more minor roles or input, and GW shifted away from explicit designer credits I think after their designers got too much unwelcome attention after each Codex, especially Matt Ward. So now we don't have "celebrity lead designer" per Codex.

So you don't like Gav. Got it. Good talk.

Check out his Eldar novels. Again, they are the only Eldar novels where the Young King is an Exarch.

The sin here is only that the craftworld in the novels is Alaitoc. That's the only inconsistency. If it had been Biel Tan then everything comports with the lore.