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So, Haighus' thread about Armageddon made me read and think a bit - are those local forces actually that much worse than guard forces that are sent from outside? (Talking about PDF here, not Hive ganger militia with Stalingrad style equipment...).

Thoughts that crossed me:
- they fight on their own planet, which will raise morale significantly, other than the guard they might not need that much "encouragement", defending their homesoil
- they have short supply lines
- they know the environment and terrain better than outside forces
- their organization might not be as byzantine as the greater Imperium, they'll be dependant on the governeur and the local military framework
- as far as I understand it their equipment should be pretty much the same

Points for the guard:
- they're formed from the "best pdf", so their troops will be of higher Individual quality (whatever that matters in industrialized warfare...)
- they'll probably be more experienced, raising their morale
- their commanders will be more experienced as well and know how to handle threads other than rebellions
- they might have access to more sophisticated equipment? (I'm not that much into Guard lore admittedly).
- they're less prone to fall to inner corruption of local authorities than the PDF, if the planetary governeur is a moron, PDF will suffer

So, tell me follow dakkanauts! Is the PDF the actual cliché cannon fodder and the Guard is as great as Kanluwen always states or are the .pdf the true heroes, fighting the good fight for their families?

It’s a tricky one.

In sheer practical terms? Given how few of The Emperor’s Worlds fall, they’re clearly Good Enough.

But, when compared to a Guard Regiment, who are somewhat wiser about the true scale of just what they’re all up against, and have lived to tell the tale? They probably do feel like rank amateurs.

Though we need to properly consider and take into account the purpose of a PDF.

They’re not expected to face down a Black Crusade, pod shot a Waaaagh! or wedgie and nipple cripple a Hive Fleet single handed.\

Rather, they’re a standing force meant as a solid deterrent. You can raid and do a bit of piracy, sure. But to just rock up and grab the world for yourself? Well, here’s a few hundred thousand, maybe a few million very dedicated fighters who’d like to have a wee word about your intentions.

And, for the most part? They do exactly that. They may not have the best training and fanciest shooters, but they’re nothing if not numerous (scaling for population density), and somewhat organised. Certainly enough that opportunistic land invasions are a risky prospect, and Cults really need to know who their friends are.

But in those situations where they’re not enough? In an ideal world, they should be of sufficient strength and grit to hold out until “proper” forces arrive.

If I had to sum it up? It’s like calling your basic Squaddie a chump because, compared to the SAS, they’re just not as deadly.

Perspective. That’s the key

Its 40k it depends:

* The Wealth of the planet
* The Tech of the planet
* The Alliances of the planet
* The Importance of the planet
* The wars it has fought or not fought

All of these can effect the troops available, in terms of training, quality, equipment and number

The equipment should be different. The initial background is that every planet has its own distinct equipment, and it's for the sake of standardization that the guard uses only patterns of leman russ and chimera. I think the major times that local equipment has made it onto the page are the Ragnarok heavy tanks from Epic and Urdeshi Reaver or Brigand tanks from gaunt's ghosts.

The PDF should also include regional armies amd regional aristocrats who go to war with each other.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its 40k it depends:

* The Wealth of the planet
* The Tech of the planet
* The Alliances of the planet
* The Importance of the planet
* The wars it has fought or not fought

All of these can effect the troops available, in terms of training, quality, equipment and number

Exactly. It's really hard to determine. eg the PDF of a planet like Cadia (before the fall) is going to be far better than the PDF of a feudal world.



Also I'd add in that the PDF depends a lot on the local ruling parties and their agendas as well as the sector politics. These can all come into play to improve or worsen the PDF.

WE also have to consider that some regions might have a fragmented PDF. Eg world with many massive hive cities and wasteland outside; might have only hive-city level PDF units that are separate from other Hive City PDF units.
Or local politics sees different regions commanded by different nobles who could even use the PDF as mini-armies to wage their own personal wars which could lead to a PDF that isn't well suited to organising together to deal with a greater external threat.

Finally there's the planet itself. Time and again we see that certain worlds can potentially breed superior forces simply because of the nature of the challenges the world throws at its population and the way the world deals with those challenges. Eg the Imperium could tame Catachan, but they choose not to do so because the violent dangerous life on that world creates some outstanding soldiers for the Imperium.



So there's a lot which might make a world/system stronger or weaker.





Also don't forget inter-group-snobbery. The IG likely DO look down on most PDF forces, esp those from worlds that have seen very little action or threat. So some impressions, like those from a Navy Captain, might be "false". They might perceive PDF as weaker than their own forces, but that doesn't mean that they are.

Yes, as pointed out above, PDFs are very variable. However, on the whole they are inferior to Guard units with a higher chance of being complacent and inexperienced and a generally worse standard of equipment. There is also, as mentioned, a much greater chance of corruption sapping the forces.

For the first aspect- it is very possible that no one in a PDF has seen any real combat beyond policing civil disturbances. Many worlds can be peaceful for over a century between attacks, so PDFs can have limited experience and be quite complacent.

Regarding equipment, they are generally less mechanised than Guard units. For example, they are more likely to use static or towed artillery, like heavy mortars instead of Griffons or Earthshakers instead of Basilisks. PDFs are also more likely to use autoguns or even stub rifles instead of lasguns (not a dramatic downgrade in combat, but worse logistically). They are less likely to use more advanced equipment like vox beads.

Corruption within the PDF was a big failing on Armageddon during the 1st and 2nd wars. It is a big part of why the old nobility was deposed from ruling the planet in favour of a military council formed from veteran officers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it is also worth noting that those factors above generally wouldn't show much difference at a tactical level, say on a 40k battlefield, but you would see big differences at an operational and strategic level with more logistic strain and less mobile troops lead by inexperienced and maybe corrupt commanders.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s a tricky one.

It's really not.

It's plot dependent.

Kind of.

The PDF are recruited, funded and trained by the Planetary Governor as part of their obligations.

And so results vary. Some will install family into the command structure, regardless of their competence. Others will recruit retired Guard Veterans.

Some will spend the bare minimum. Others will be more lavish. And because not all plants are equally wealthy, well funded will vary.

But ultimately it’s in the Governors own interest to not skimp on defence spending. After all, an unprepared, poorly maintained PDF is going to need outside Imperial forces to pull its feet from the fire. And that can attract unwanted attention and oversight, and lead to your removal, if you even survive an invasion yourself.

But at the end of the day? Even well trained and funded PDF are going to lack the experience held by a Guard regiment, because they’re not constantly on campaign. Not just in general combat experience, but specific experience against the various Xenos threats.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s a tricky one.

It's really not.

It's plot dependent.

That is true of every 40k faction and not particularly helpful when looking at general trends for the setting.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Kind of.

The PDF are recruited, funded and trained by the Planetary Governor as part of their obligations.

And so results vary. Some will install family into the command structure, regardless of their competence. Others will recruit retired Guard Veterans.

Some will spend the bare minimum. Others will be more lavish. And because not all plants are equally wealthy, well funded will vary.

But ultimately it’s in the Governors own interest to not skimp on defence spending. After all, an unprepared, poorly maintained PDF is going to need outside Imperial forces to pull its feet from the fire. And that can attract unwanted attention and oversight, and lead to your removal, if you even survive an invasion yourself.

Eh... underfunding critical services intended for infrequent events in order to enrich oneself in the short term and gamble the event doesn't happen on your watch is depressingly common for humanity. Plenty of corrupt governors will take a chance on it not happening in their lifetime.

But at the end of the day? Even well trained and funded PDF are going to lack the experience held by a Guard regiment, because they’re not constantly on campaign. Not just in general combat experience, but specific experience against the various Xenos threats.

Plus, much of that already-limited experience will be fighting off raids that never intended to or had no realistic chance of capturing the world, or civil unrest and minor insurrections. Significant wars that threaten the loss of the world are going to be rare for worlds outside of frontier regions, prior to the Great Rift anyhow. On the other hand, worlds with a feral Ork infestation or similar can have good combat experience that is likely to never be eradicated.

Even if a PDF does have significant combat experience from a recent invasion etc. it seems they become a target for emergency tithes as they have troops that are proven capable. This is what happened to Perlia.

We also need to consider inherent bias in the media we’re reading.

When Cain, or any other character and resulting regiment or chapter or what have you arrive to aid in the fighting? Things have already gone pretty poorly. That could be a superior foe, superior numbers, abject incompetence and so on.

Therefore, the PDF’s efforts are always going to be the subject of scorn. It’s inevitable. When your job is going system to system to assist or take back a world, of course you’re going to have a poor opinion of the PDF.

But…we tend to lack stories about a PDF doing its job, and doing it well. For instance, if an Orky invasion or Dark Eldar slave raid is rebuffed and the world secured? Nobody else is gonna hear about it, because they don’t need to hear about it. After all, failure has no excuse, victory requires none.

As I said in my first post? The mere fact that The Imperium losing a world is pretty rare much stand as testament that, for the most part, the humble PDF works as deterrent and solution.

 Haighus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s a tricky one.

It's really not.

It's plot dependent.

That is true of every 40k faction and not particularly helpful when looking at general trends for the setting.

It's literally all you need to know of "general trends for the setting".

Planetary Defence Forces have ZERO tabletop representation. There is ZERO attempts to actually quantify them outside of lore, where they're as incompetent and blundering and corrupt as necessary.

Never mind that any governor who sets up a PDF to fail would be executed by the Arbites, Commissariat, or any number of entities.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s a tricky one.

It's really not.

It's plot dependent.

That is true of every 40k faction and not particularly helpful when looking at general trends for the setting.

It's literally all you need to know of "general trends for the setting".

Planetary Defence Forces have ZERO tabletop representation. There is ZERO attempts to actually quantify them outside of lore, where they're as incompetent and blundering and corrupt as necessary.

Never mind that any governor who sets up a PDF to fail would be executed by the Arbites, Commissariat, or any number of entities.

Are you saying that the PDF is defined by the plot because they only appear in Black Library books? Because that certainly isn't true. Plus, the argument that they haven't been quantified outside of the lore is... bizarre. Everything in 40k is quantified by the lore...

The Arbites and Inquisition don't catch everything, people doing crimes tend to try to hide them.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is ZERO attempts to actually quantify them outside of lore, where they're as incompetent and blundering and corrupt as necessary.

So like every other non-main POV entity in a novel cos that's how opposing characters work? If the protagonists are the Guard, then the PDF being super efficient would leave no reason for the Guard to be there.

 Haighus wrote:

Are you saying that the PDF is defined by the plot because they only appear in Black Library books?

I'm saying that the PDF is defined by the plot because they only appear in Black Library books and never as the actual, centralized focus of the book.

The Arbites and Inquisition don't catch everything, people doing crimes tend to try to hide them.

Who said anything about the Inquisition?

Again though, see my note about the plot.

Discussing the PDF is absolutely, one-hundred percent pointless. GW themselves aren't even sure of what they want the PDF to be, with the term being used interchangeably with the Imperial Guard as recently as the promo material for the Brood Brothers Kill Team.


But I'm sure you knew that, eh?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Are you saying that the PDF is defined by the plot because they only appear in Black Library books?

I'm saying that the PDF is defined by the plot because they only appear in Black Library books and never as the actual, centralized focus of the book.

The Arbites and Inquisition don't catch everything, people doing crimes tend to try to hide them.

Who said anything about the Inquisition?

Again though, see my note about the plot.

Discussing the PDF is absolutely, one-hundred percent pointless. GW themselves aren't even sure of what they want the PDF to be, with the term being used interchangeably with the Imperial Guard as recently as the promo material for the Brood Brothers Kill Team.


But I'm sure you knew that, eh?

PDFs have actually had rules in 2 separate lists in 3rd- firstly for the Armageddon PDF, which was a restricted Imperial Guard list that could take hive gang militia units but had to take enclosed crew compartments on open-topped vehicles; and secondly the Cadian defence forces list, which were probably some of the highest-quality PDF forces in the Imperium and indistinguishable from the tithed Cadian regiments chosen by lottery.

Plus we have a lot of lore info from codices and unit entries that tell us more about PDFs relative to Guard units, such as tithed units often being taken from the elite of the PDF to ensure high enough quality to pass the tithe requirement (and avoid execution on the part of the Planetary Governor), or low-mobility heavy equipment like Sabre platforms or field artillery being used by PDFs more often than by Guard units that are more likely to have mechanised options like Hydra tanks or Griffons.

 Haighus wrote:

PDFs have actually had rules in 2 separate lists in 3rd- firstly for the Armageddon PDF, which was a restricted Imperial Guard list that could take hive gang militia units but had to take enclosed crew compartments on open-topped vehicles

I'm assuming you're referring to C: Armageddon, which I don't own to confirm. Lexicanum however says that it is the "Armageddon Steel Legion" army list...and the Steel Legion are Guard Regiments.

and secondly the Cadian defences forces which were probably some of the highest-quality PDF forces in the Imperium and indistinguishable from the tithed Cadian regiments chosen by lottery.

And where exactly does that come from?

Because if it's Eye of Terror? Nope. Semantically, you're correct but the army list was Cadian Shock Troops. With a specific mention of how the Interior Guard were regiments stationed on world, and the existence of no Planetary Defence Force as a separate entity.

Plus we have a lot of lore info from codices and unit entries that tell us more about PDFs relative to Guard units, such as tithed units often being taken from the elite of the PDF to ensure high enough quality to pass the tithe requirement (and avoid execution on the part of the Planetary Governor), or low-mobility heavy equipment like Sabre platforms or field artillery being used by PDFs more often than by Guard units that are more likely to have mechanised options like Hydra tanks or Griffons.

We also have a lot of lore info from codices and unit entries that tell us the opposite.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

PDFs have actually had rules in 2 separate lists in 3rd- firstly for the Armageddon PDF, which was a restricted Imperial Guard list that could take hive gang militia units but had to take enclosed crew compartments on open-topped vehicles

I'm assuming you're referring to C: Armageddon, which I don't own to confirm. Lexicanum however says that it is the "Armageddon Steel Legion" army list...and the Steel Legion are Guard Regiments.

Yes, Codex: Armageddon. It has three pages discussing Armageddon regiments and what army lists to use to represent them. Tithed regiments use the Codex: Imperial Guard infantry company list, Ork hunter regiments use the Codex: Catachans Deathworld veterans list, planetary defence force regiments use the Codex: Imperial Guard list with some restrictions and an extra unit, and there are rules for mechanised infantry which is based on the Codex: Imperial Guard list with some restrictions + all Chimeras. Tithed or PDF forces can be mechanised, but a mechanised PDF can't take militia units.

and secondly the Cadian defences forces which were probably some of the highest-quality PDF forces in the Imperium and indistinguishable from the tithed Cadian regiments chosen by lottery.

And where exactly does that come from?

Because if it's Eye of Terror? Nope. Semantically, you're correct but the army list was Cadian Shock Troops. With a specific mention of how the Interior Guard were regiments stationed on world, and the existence of no Planetary Defence Force as a separate entity.

I apologise, I misremembered this one. The list is indeed Cadian Shock Troops. The part about the defense forces is in the lore earlier in the book. Although it explicitly states that the Interior Guard is the Cadian planetary defense force.

Plus we have a lot of lore info from codices and unit entries that tell us more about PDFs relative to Guard units, such as tithed units often being taken from the elite of the PDF to ensure high enough quality to pass the tithe requirement (and avoid execution on the part of the Planetary Governor), or low-mobility heavy equipment like Sabre platforms or field artillery being used by PDFs more often than by Guard units that are more likely to have mechanised options like Hydra tanks or Griffons.

We also have a lot of lore info from codices and unit entries that tell us the opposite.

Right, it isn't consistent and no one is claiming it is. 40k always has exceptions and unusual scenarios, a lot like real life in that regard. Obviously there are very good and/or well-equipped PDF formations (like the mechanised Armageddon pdf mentioned above) or even entire PDFs (with Cadia being the archetypical example of this). But on the whole we are told that PDFs are usually worse quality with worse gear than Guard units drawn from the same world.

 Haighus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

PDFs have actually had rules in 2 separate lists in 3rd- firstly for the Armageddon PDF, which was a restricted Imperial Guard list that could take hive gang militia units but had to take enclosed crew compartments on open-topped vehicles

I'm assuming you're referring to C: Armageddon, which I don't own to confirm. Lexicanum however says that it is the "Armageddon Steel Legion" army list...and the Steel Legion are Guard Regiments.

Yes, Codex: Armageddon. It has three pages discussing Armageddon regiments and what army lists to use to represent them. Tithed regiments use the Codex: Imperial Guard infantry company list, Ork hunter regiments use the Codex: Catachans Deathworld veterans list, planetary defence force regiments use the Codex: Imperial Guard list with some restrictions and an extra unit, and there are rules for mechanised infantry which is based on the Codex: Imperial Guard list with some restrictions + all Chimeras. Tithed or PDF forces can be mechanised, but a mechanised PDF can't take militia units.

Spoiler:

So again, not a singular "Planetary Defence Force" list...just a list of how to do a "counts as". Got it.

and secondly the Cadian defences forces which were probably some of the highest-quality PDF forces in the Imperium and indistinguishable from the tithed Cadian regiments chosen by lottery.

And where exactly does that come from?

Because if it's Eye of Terror? Nope. Semantically, you're correct but the army list was Cadian Shock Troops. With a specific mention of how the Interior Guard were regiments stationed on world, and the existence of no Planetary Defence Force as a separate entity.

I apologise, I misremembered this one. The list is indeed Cadian Shock Troops. The part about the defense forces is in the lore earlier in the book. Although it explicitly states that the Interior Guard is the Cadian planetary defense force.

Ehhh...it says "a planetary defence force".

More on that in a moment!

Plus we have a lot of lore info from codices and unit entries that tell us more about PDFs relative to Guard units, such as tithed units often being taken from the elite of the PDF to ensure high enough quality to pass the tithe requirement (and avoid execution on the part of the Planetary Governor), or low-mobility heavy equipment like Sabre platforms or field artillery being used by PDFs more often than by Guard units that are more likely to have mechanised options like Hydra tanks or Griffons.

We also have a lot of lore info from codices and unit entries that tell us the opposite.

Right, it isn't consistent and no one is claiming it is. 40k always has exceptions and unusual scenarios, a lot like real life in that regard. Obviously there are very good and/or well-equipped PDF formations (like the mechanised Armageddon pdf mentioned above) or even entire PDFs (with Cadia being the archetypical example of this).

There's a consistency, in that there is no consistency except what the plot requires.

The other real consistency is that "PDF", the capitalized Planetary Defence Force version, is what we're supposed to expect each planet to have at the insistence of the High Lords.

Cadia WAS supposed to be special in the regard that they didn't bother with a PDF, since the planet was too important and thus the Interior Guard postings.

It's supposed to be a big, big, big deal for a world to feature Guard Regiments posted on them.

But on the whole we are told that PDFs are usually worse quality with worse gear than Guard units drawn from the same world.

We really aren't told that anymore though.

Like I said earlier:
PDF keeps being used interchangeably with Guard Regiment when it comes to armories and the like, when Brood Brothers are involved. We're getting more lore about the corruption of the organization than the organization itself.

Just think on that for a moment.

At some point the sheer variety of the PDF makes hammering anything down about them tough.

We know that PDFs are the source of soldiers for IG regiments. In modern lore, they take the best soldiers and then cart them to the campaign. In older lore, the IG would recruit directly, and train soldiers on the voyage to the warzone. The latter may have been for sheer meatgrinder wars.

PDFs are going to use mostly locally sourced equipment, and are raised and paid for by the local government. On industrial worlds (amageddon) they can be highly mechanized, while on death worlds they rely more on fieldcraft and simpler kit. Wealth worlds (vostroya) can have much more expensive gear. NPC planets tend to have much more non-descript or inept PDF.

The one resource we're told the imperium never runs out of is humanity itself. There are always more people, for the simple fact that planets can easily sustain a billion or more people, while even a large spaceship cannot transport more than 100,000 or so. For an earth sized planet to send even 1% of it's population into another warzone would require 800 ships each capable of moving 100,00 men. For comparison, in WW2 the USSR mobilized about 18% of it's population (35 million in uniform) while the US mobilized about 14% (16 million across all branches) with 73% deployed overseas.

For all of our think of Stalingrad level mass combat spread, the reality is that most invaders are bringing armies smaller than we saw in WW2, simply due to the limits of space travel. (even the worst urban fighting in Stalingrad itself was done by a less than a half million men on either side. Much more during the soviet counter offensive though).

What is my point of all this? Planets in 40k are going to recruit a tiny fraction of their total population into the PDF. A planet of 10 Billion might have 10 Million men under arms, which if even half competent are going to be very tough to shift and are a 0.1% of the total population. My guess is that most PDFs however in the millions, with much of that being air defense artillery, logistics,and not infantry.

So, when you have plenty of time and plenty of people, you should have a well trained PDF made up of top recruits. You can always go mega grim dark and talk about corrupt or incompetent governers, but assuming even baseline decent leadership, you're going to have a solid force in your PDF.

So why do they fold all the time? Plot, obviously. But they don't have the experience or gear of IG regiments. They are far less likely to use combined arms tactics. The PDF might be specialized and not always great at responding to the specific threat posed. And like first lines of defense, the PDF is meant to be good enough when needed but cheap enough when not. So against really large or coordinated threats, they can fall apart.

 Polonius wrote:

For all of our think of Stalingrad level mass combat spread, the reality is that most invaders are bringing armies smaller than we saw in WW2, simply due to the limits of space travel. (even the worst urban fighting in Stalingrad itself was done by a less than a half million men on either side. Much more during the soviet counter offensive though).

What is my point of all this? Planets in 40k are going to recruit a tiny fraction of their total population into the PDF. A planet of 10 Billion might have 10 Million men under arms, which if even half competent are going to be very tough to shift and are a 0.1% of the total population. My guess is that most PDFs however in the millions, with much of that being air defense artillery, logistics,and not infantry.

So, when you have plenty of time and plenty of people, you should have a well trained PDF made up of top recruits. You can always go mega grim dark and talk about corrupt or incompetent governers, but assuming even baseline decent leadership, you're going to have a solid force in your PDF.

So why do they fold all the time? Plot, obviously. But they don't have the experience or gear of IG regiments. They are far less likely to use combined arms tactics. The PDF might be specialized and not always great at responding to the specific threat posed. And like first lines of defense, the PDF is meant to be good enough when needed but cheap enough when not. So against really large or coordinated threats, they can fall apart.

Part of the issue here is that the Chaos and Xenos side of the tabletop is all about factions that are large coordinated threats (and the Imperial side is full of Space Marines and Custodes). Chaos Space Marines and Daemons, Tyranids, Orks, Necrons, etc. they are forces that can throw numbers way in excess of WW2 and/or bring reality warping/super tech onto the table. PDFs are mean to protect against raiders and minor xeno factions, but against the mayor players of the galaxy they are only meant to slow them down at best of times, and M41.999 isn't the best of times.

The pathetic part as well is that GW has had a good route to bring PDF in for decades now:

The Conscript Squad and/or Regimental Advisors.

Don't we have enough Imperial factions as is?

Besides which PDF would you go for? Cadia, Catachan etc... are all major recruitment and distribution legions within the vast multitudes of the Imperial Guard.
What world is big enough to have a PDF that is suddenly being deployed all over the galaxy and - since they are being deployed - why are they PDF and not IG with IG gear and equipment.

 Overread wrote:
Don't we have enough Imperial factions as is?

Besides which PDF would you go for? Cadia, Catachan etc... are all major recruitment and distribution legions within the vast multitudes of the Imperial Guard.
What world is big enough to have a PDF that is suddenly being deployed all over the galaxy and - since they are being deployed - why are they PDF and not IG with IG gear and equipment.

And yet nobody bats an eye at Brood Brothers and Genestealer Cultists showing up everywhere? Arbites suddenly showing up en masse?

The PDF could easily be a new unit in the Guard army. Blahblahblah fluff explanation for them being the remnants of the PDF folded into Guard's command structure to serve alongside the forces arriving to liberate their world.

Would bring in the possibility for an "ambushing" unit, representing pro-Imperial forces who know the lay of the land.

A PDF Regimental Advisor could just be a fun local guide.

It's not like we'd need a kit. They still haven't done a basic Infantry Squad kit though, and doing something made to look like the old metal Cadians from back in the day.

If an ambusher unit needs to be added how about it's just Guard Scouts, y'know something that has existed for years in the background and doesn't need to have a weird convoluted reason for being added?

PDF is Guard -10 and brings nothing to the table both metaphorically and literally.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Don't we have enough Imperial factions as is?

Besides which PDF would you go for? Cadia, Catachan etc... are all major recruitment and distribution legions within the vast multitudes of the Imperial Guard.
What world is big enough to have a PDF that is suddenly being deployed all over the galaxy and - since they are being deployed - why are they PDF and not IG with IG gear and equipment.

And yet nobody bats an eye at Brood Brothers and Genestealer Cultists showing up everywhere? Arbites suddenly showing up en masse?.

The thing is Genstealer Cults can and do form powerbases beyond a planet. A Cultist who leaves one world to spread the cult to another is just a cultist.


But when you've a PDF and they want to go off-world they basically become the Imperial Guard. Even if just purely in label and gaining a few shared units like generic design tanks.



Now sure the Genstealer Cults models have one design asthetic, but that's the same as every faction and is simply a reflection of the fact GW can't make hundreds to thousands of different subfactions of models with different design asthetics and such.

As noted above, its unlikely GW would make a PDF force outside of anything but Necromunda or a similar style game. Otherwise they'd just make an IG army with a different design element to them .

 Gert wrote:
If an ambusher unit needs to be added how about it's just Guard Scouts, y'know something that has existed for years in the background and doesn't need to have a weird convoluted reason for being added?

As opposed to Brood Brothers being everywhere now?

I've argued for Guard Scouts for decades. I'm done arguing for it. People want the Ol' Nostalgia garbage it seems. PDF would be a good route to add something to Guard that doesn't exist.

PDF is Guard -10 and brings nothing to the table both metaphorically and literally.

PDF would just be GSC with eagles on.

Frankly though, Guard could stand to be bumped up a notch above GSC. Even if accompanied by a points hike.

 Overread wrote:

The thing is Genstealer Cults can and do form powerbases beyond a planet. A Cultist who leaves one world to spread the cult to another is just a cultist.

And then they form a new Cult on that planet.

They don't "form powerbases beyond a planet". They spread in relation to the Patriarch. The Shadow in the Warp is what triggers their uprisings by and large.

But when you've a PDF and they want to go off-world they basically become the Imperial Guard. Even if just purely in label and gaining a few shared units like generic design tanks.

Oh, and Arbites become Imperial Guard too? Custodes?

Nobody said anything about them going off-world. The Imperium's the battlefield of 40k by and large, we keep getting told over and over and over and over and over again how all the worlds are under attack.

There's a reason why my suggestion was "locals".

Now sure the Genstealer Cults models have one design asthetic, but that's the same as every faction and is simply a reflection of the fact GW can't make hundreds to thousands of different subfactions of models with different design asthetics and such.

Saying "Genestealer Cult models have one design aesthetic" is disingenuous. They have at least 3. You have the "mutants"(Acolytes/Metamorphs, Abominants, Aberrants), "passing for human"(Neophytes), and "Brood Brothers"(literally: "Guard models with gribbly bits").

As noted above, its unlikely GW would make a PDF force outside of anything but Necromunda or a similar style game. Otherwise they'd just make an IG army with a different design element to them .

Who said literally ANYTHING about them being an army book?

I suggested them as a unit. Read what you reply to.

 Kanluwen wrote:
As opposed to Brood Brothers being everywhere now?

Local military forces being infested with the Genestealer Curse you mean? Yeah, that's neeeeeeever happened before, neeeeeeeeeever. It's not like the final stages of infiltration are the subversion of local power structures such as the military and government. Nope, that's definitely not in GSC lore. (Can you tell I'm being sarcastic?)

I've argued for Guard Scouts for decades. I'm done arguing for it. People want the Ol' Nostalgia garbage it seems. PDF would be a good route to add something to Guard that doesn't exist.

The heck is nostalgic about PDF?

PDF would just be GSC with eagles on.

Ah yes the PDF, notable users of mutant hybrids, Xenos, and unregistered Psykers.

 Gert wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
As opposed to Brood Brothers being everywhere now?

Local military forces being infested with the Genestealer Curse you mean? Yeah, that's neeeeeeever happened before, neeeeeeeeeever. It's not like the final stages of infiltration are the subversion of local power structures such as the military and government. Nope, that's definitely not in GSC lore. (Can you tell I'm being sarcastic?)

So we're clear:

"Local military forces being infested with the Genestealer Curse"=
"Local military forces reuniting with Guard forces sent to reclaim the planet"=

Be as sarcastic as you want. It's not like the concept I've suggested is that wild.

I've argued for Guard Scouts for decades. I'm done arguing for it. People want the Ol' Nostalgia garbage it seems. PDF would be a good route to add something to Guard that doesn't exist.

The heck is nostalgic about PDF?

The heck is nostalgic about Arbites? Genestealer Cults? Inquisitors? Rogue Traders?

PDF would just be GSC with eagles on.

Ah yes the PDF, notable users of mutant hybrids, Xenos, and unregistered Psykers.

Ah yes, the GSC notable users of what are supposed to be highly trained military forces and massed armoured vehicles.
(can you tell I'm being sarcastic?)

People like to use GEQ as shorthand for Guard Equivalent...but that concept has effectively been sidelined for half a decade. The things that used to be GEQ(Guardians and Fire Warriors) have been bumped up to being Stormtrooper equivalents in most situations(T3 with a 4+ save).

Giving Guard a PDF unit with the 5+ save, bigger unit sizes, etc that can't benefit from Orders creates a GSC equivalent unit for them and opens up way more design space within the army proper.

 Kanluwen wrote:

So we're clear:

"Local military forces being infested with the Genestealer Curse"=
"Local military forces reuniting with Guard forces sent to reclaim the planet"=


Be as sarcastic as you want. It's not like the concept I've suggested is that wild.

The baseline for GSC is that they have infested a planet and are in the middle of an uprising. This includes subverting the local military which can be represented by Brood Brothers. That's how the Cults work.

What you are suggesting is that PDF are essentially Partisans which would only exist in a handful of scenarios. Why would there be PDF invading a Necron Tomb World? Why would there be PDF defending a ship from being boarded?

There are no specific conditions for Brood Brothers to exist because it's a core part of the GSC lore that they infiltrate the local armed forces to bolster the power of the Cult when the uprising comes.

The heck is nostalgic about Arbites? Genestealer Cults? Inquisitors? Rogue Traders?

Answer the question properly. What is nostalgic about PDF?

Ah yes, the GSC notable users of what are supposed to be highly trained military forces and massed armoured vehicles.
(can you tell I'm being sarcastic?)

Lol "highly trained". And yes the background is once again very clear that one of the major goals of a Cult is to infiltrate local military forces like the PDF, law enforcement or whatever else is present (such as Skitarii on a Forge World).
But again, you dodge the point entirely where you have claimed that the PDF would just be Imperial GSC yet the vast majority of the GSC list wouldn't be found dead in the PDF ranks because they're actual full-on Xenos-hybrids.

Giving Guard a PDF unit with the 5+ save, bigger unit sizes, etc that can't benefit from Orders creates a GSC equivalent unit for them and opens up way more design space within the army proper.

Design space how? Infantry units can go to 20 strong and already have 5+ saves.

 Kanluwen wrote:

"Local military forces being infested with the Genestealer Curse"=
"Local military forces reuniting with Guard forces sent to reclaim the planet"=

The Genestealer Cults are visually distinct as an army on the tabletop and when they leave the local world they infest, they remain the Genestealer Cults; they don't change*

The PDF, as soon as they leave the planet they are on (which has to happen for them to be numerous enough to have enough impact on the setting to make it work GW making models for them for 40K); become identical to the Imperial Guard because that's basically what the Imperial Guard is. PDF taken offworld; giving some standard gear and sent out to war.

Again a PDF force that appears in the 40K setting in enough numbers to count and is operating off-world is the Imperial Guard.

A PDF force that's only operating on its world is too niche for 40K as an army. It would fit great into Killteam or Necromunda type settings ,but for 40K that's big armies and factions waging war over many worlds and systems.



Yes the Imperial Guard are visually limited right now; that's partly just a result of the fact that they are a normal faction in a normal game; not the Space Marines who are insanely marketable in a pretty much unique way in the whole wargame market (even GW couldn't recapture the magic with Stormcast)


*I mean sure they would just as each world would be unique, but as noted above, its simply a matter of practicalities that GW can't make endless variations