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To prevent further derailing in a N&R thread. The discussion so far:

skrulnik wrote:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:
The problem with "some people know" is the Mechanicus *would* hear about it(not one single solitary Explorator has made it on and off Necromunda in that time? not one single unscrupluous Cold Trader who routinely deal in tech and would know the import of what Van Saar get up to has ever thought to themselves "here, those toaster lads would pay me a pretty penny to know about this"? not a single member of the priesthood who must live and work at least *in orbit*, or who's served on a ship that called there, ever, has heard rumours they thought worth passing on?), and once that happens there's no version that isn't dominos falling towards a Martian invasion and probable civil war in the Imperium. They casually use Green Goblin hoverboards and banned-by-personal-holy-decree-of-the-Emperor rad cannons and IIRC at least the variant of las you only find in Van Saar lists at least is supposed to be a completely unique pattern, the ship has long since sailed on the notion they could keep a lid on things.

And Overread, that's not what new Necromunda is at all really. The House gangs may still be *called* gangs but in reality are basically PMCs working directly for their parent House, at least in "normal" N17 fluff and campaigns. There are repeated little stories in the books about them fighting over active industrial plants, power generators, or raiding goods handling facilities etc that could only be in the Hive proper.

In the end, it's silly fluff and it'll never stop being so because every attempt to justify it just creates even more problems.

I feel you vastly overestimate the proliferation of information in the Imperium.
We occupy an omniscient position on the fluff.
The Mechanicum, the bureaucracy of Necromunda itself, and the Houses do not.

I assume there are levels of security and secrecy, not unlike the Dark Angel circles, around the STC and its information.
They don't just let everyone in on it, because they're part of the House.
I would highly doubt they use terminology in-universe that could indicate that it is an STC.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I like the idea of hiding in plain sight.

Back in the day one of the ways DC justified Clark Kent's secret was "Yes I know Clark looks like Superman and I thought that too, but it's been disproven a dozen times already, there's no there there".

In this case "Yes meatbag we heard the rumors about Van Saar, we've been hearing them for 2.8 millennia, we have searched their every stronghold, confiscated every STC fragment and examined every weapon. There's nothing there."

Segersgia wrote:I went to look back to the Van Saar book to confirm why they manage to keep it so secretive, and one detail immediately stood out to me.

The Adeptus Mechanicus seldom if ever travels outside of the Spire, with Tech adepts almost never being seen below the Wall that separates the nobles from the rest of Hive city.

Overread wrote:I mean that's one take on things. The other is that the Imperium is VAST. Necromunda is just 1 Hive City. It's not even unique on the world its based, let alone with the Imperium. The Gang within are just one of many active gangs within the city and Van Saar are not superior to the other gangs by any vast margin. They don't stand out.

Why would the Mechanicus go looking for anything grand in the mess that is the underhive? It's not the only underhive full of potential ancient lost tech. Chances are those who are keen to hunt for such might have hives that are even more interesting elsewhere; or they are more focused on the warzones where things are at risk of being lost to forces outside the Imperium. Necromunda is stable in the sense that its not on a front line of invasion. It's not going anywhere.

Further don't forget that those in power over Necromunda might well have their own reasons to not encourage the Mechanicus snooping around.


It's less that characters are idiots and more that they are simply unaware of things happening. We, the audience, are way more aware because its the focal point of lore and stories that we read.
It's the same as how the average fan has more concept of chaos, demons and xenos than the average Imperial Citizen. It's why we can go "ooh that's a cult forming" whilst those in the setting don't see it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It probably helps that outside of the Mechanicum, and the similarly “hush hush only seniors get the real toys” organised House Van Saar, few people on Necromunda will even know what an STC is, let alone that Van Saar have one.

Consider the champion recycling effort that is the entire planet, and the general robust longevity of Imperial Tech.

The machines used in the day to day hustle and bustle of Hive life will be pretty ancient, having been maintained, refurbished and even repurposed over centuries, if not millennia.

And with each House having some capacity to make its own weapons, there’s already a wide range of looks and effectiveness in the guns seen and used.

Among all that? Van Saar tech is Just Another Variant, to all intents and purposes. Sure they’re typically more efficient and/or powerful, but you already know not all Lasguns etc are the same. And those Van Saar are certainly good with tech.

Who cares how? All you know is they’re super defensive about how they know what they know, and anyone sent sneaking about to find out just isn’t seen again. But that too is far from uncommon in the Hive (let alone the Underhive)

Now the upper echelons will almost certainly know. But, they’ll also know Van Saar must’ve had it for a long, long time. And nobody else has ratted them out. Probably because it helps Necromunda do The One Thing That Really Matters - meet the tithe, on time, every time.

So as well as potentially impacting Tithe production, ratting them out now is going to lead to questions as to why, given it was clearly an open secret, nobody informed the Mechanicum before.

That’s disloyalty. That’s Tech Heresy. You could lose your head for that - or worse, cost your family the Governorship or other positions etc.

Overread wrote:Also as the STC is "part of the hive" right now there's every chance the Mechanicus would just fly in and demand the whole hive city. It's built into the city and there's tech from it all over the place; so why sift, just take the entire city.

You can't be high lord if your entire hive is now owned by the mechanicus; who are likely busy tearing the place apart screw by screw.

Now you could argue that you'd get a huge kickback from the Mechanicus, but there's always the chance that they blame you and do terrible things to you for your family hiding the info for so long. There's also dynastic aspects too. A lot of the nobility works on dynasty - ergo your Hive City. Losing it/selling it/giving it away to the Mechanicus would go against all of that.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Hive City?

Hive World. Got to fortify and purify the whole thing when there’s a working STC in play.

Mr_Rose wrote:That’s the other thing; the Helmawrs will know what would happen if the Adeptus Mechanicus gets the idea that there’s a genuine working STC down there somewhere and will be doing everything they can to prevent that because apart from anything else it means the end of their power.
Also we know they’re already keeping the much more dangerous (both to the world and the greater imperium) secret of the psyker drug under wraps, explicitly by several acts of misdirection (“finding” and reporting small deposits while keeping the really big motherlodes on an entirely separate network of ghost cities) and outright denial.

Have at it!

To further expand on my point?

Provided your Tithe is met, the wider Imperium is surprisingly hands-off, and will leave your planet be. Nobody really cares how you met your Tithe, only that you did, and all was present and correct.

Those Tech-Adepts present on Necromunda aren’t necessarily in significant numbers, and certainly never bother with the Underhive. I’d even question if they’re especially high ranking with the power structure of the Mechanicus. I can’t imagine being posted to a Hive World, away from the research and opportunity of a Forgeworld is exactly a reward.

Now they’d certainly have their own hierarchy among those present. But that does mean their Big Cheese has any particular political clout.

Some thoughts that stand out to me are that yes, the Imperium is vast, but also so is 10 thousand years. That is a long time to maintain a secret.

Plus, Necromunda is not really a typical hive world and lots of features make it stand out. It is a major core world and probably one of the most valuable hive worlds in the Imperium. Its population may well reach the trillions given it apparently has over a thousand hives (which is an order of magnitude above typical hive world populations). It is close to Terra. It has an Imperial Fist Chapter keep. It was brought into compliance during the Great Crusade (so has been part of the Imperium for 10k years) but was the centre of an advanced human empire before the Imperium conquered it. Necromunda used to have a planet-wide city before those early wars, the surviving hives are actually remnants of an even greater city.

All of these things, especially the extensive pre-Imperial history, make it more likely that Necromunda is noticed by outsiders like the Mechanicus. Now, that doesn't mean they would find the hidden STC, but it makes it more likely that they would. As mentioned, a lot of powerful vested interests have no gain to revealing the STC, but it potentially only needs one person to break that to personally profit and bring the whole thing down. Say an ousted senior official from Van Saar who dodges the assassins and has nothing left to lose sells out to the Mechanicus.

So it isn't implausible that the STC remains hidden, but it does seem very improbable after 10 thousand years.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To further expand on my point?

Provided your Tithe is met, the wider Imperium is surprisingly hands-off, and will leave your planet be. Nobody really cares how you met your Tithe, only that you did, and all was present and correct.

Those Tech-Adepts present on Necromunda aren’t necessarily in significant numbers, and certainly never bother with the Underhive. I’d even question if they’re especially high ranking with the power structure of the Mechanicus. I can’t imagine being posted to a Hive World, away from the research and opportunity of a Forgeworld is exactly a reward.

Now they’d certainly have their own hierarchy among those present. But that does mean their Big Cheese has any particular political clout.

I don't think the regular techprists are the issue. Enginseer Bob of the Selene reactor maintenance team isn't going to be gallivanting around chasing whispers of archeotech.

However the Mechanicus has an entire branch of loons who specifically have the job role of hunting STCs- Explorators. These can travel with a significant amount of military force and I would be very surprised if many hive worlds have avoided Explorator delegations having a snoop around over the years.

Actually, Explorator gangs could be a cool addition to the game. Could have particular beef with Van Saar.

The Van Saar only came to Necromunda in M35 on a crashed ship and didn't become a Great House until the end of M37.

Prior to their status as a Great House they outwardly showed themselves as scavengers and tech hunters which covered how they had so much archeotech.

A research team from the Mechanicus did visit Necromunda in M40 but disappeared when it started investigating the Van Saar which they were obviously able to cover up as outsiders underestimating the dangers of the Underhive.

Don't forget the Imperium is famed for the ability to achieve nothing over 10K years. In fact you could equally argue that the Mechanicus came; looked, didn't find anything and moved on generations ago and consider that any rumours or hints are just locals being missinformed and poorly educated.

furthermore as a core world its not in danger of going anywhere. So it might well be that the Mechanicus are more focused with their efforts on fringe worlds that are more at risk of being entirely lost. That doesn't just mean tech being lost, but potentially entering the hands of Xenos or Corrupted humans.

Gert wrote:The Van Saar only came to Necromunda in M35 on a crashed ship and didn't become a Great House until the end of M37.

Prior to their status as a Great House they outwardly showed themselves as scavengers and tech hunters which covered how they had so much archeotech.

A research team from the Mechanicus did visit Necromunda in M40 but disappeared when it started investigating the Van Saar which they were obviously able to cover up as outsiders underestimating the dangers of the Underhive.

Ah, fair enough. The chances are much lower for 5k years, especially given it is the latter 5k. I have edited the title accordingly.

Overread wrote:Don't forget the Imperium is famed for the ability to achieve nothing over 10K years. In fact you could equally argue that the Mechanicus came; looked, didn't find anything and moved on generations ago and consider that any rumours or hints are just locals being missinformed and poorly educated.

furthermore as a core world its not in danger of going anywhere. So it might well be that the Mechanicus are more focused with their efforts on fringe worlds that are more at risk of being entirely lost. That doesn't just mean tech being lost, but potentially entering the hands of Xenos or Corrupted humans.

This is a fair point, and I forgot to address the incompetence of Imperial institutions. Although that can equally apply to the Van Saar- they have also not made mistakes in this time.

Also, an Explorator force isn’t necessarily or exclusively looking for a functioning STC on a long established and fundamentally loyal Hive World.

Odds and ends and bits and bobs of Archaeotech? Sure. Scraping around to find some precious geegaw and if you’re really lucky? The scrap of an STC fragment.

Given the other borderline tech-heresy going on (making elixirs from Xenos, the questionable origins of House Goliath, unsanctioned manufacturing), it’s entirely possible it’s simply not crossed their fanatical minds that an STC, that Holiest of Holy Grails was right under their noses.

This feeds into the “well, the Underhive is a dangerous place” excuse for them going missing. See, the STC isn’t in the Underhive. So they clearly weren’t expressly following up leads that Van Saar might have one, because if they were, you wouldn’t start in the Underhive - and you’d likely arrive in far grander style and in massive numbers to “have a little chatette” with the High Heid Yins of Van Saar.

Their likely (but not necessarily) murder may have been due to something they found whilst grubbing about in the muck, which Van Saar suspected or outright knew would mean the jig would seen be up.

Or of course, they did simply annoy the wrong Underhivers, and paid the price of the reckless, getting themselves all murdered to death until they’re not alive anymore, just like everyone else risks.


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Now for some Wild Speculation.

Contrary to my quote post in the OP? If Van Saar started getting ideas above their station? Ratting them out to the Ad Mech, via Astropathic relay (so not telling Bionic Bob, the guy that maintains the cleaning Sevitors) would see Van Saar annihilated in due course.

See, I kind of suspect that once the Mechanicus has its non-fleshy protruberances on such a prize? Nobody is going to much care about the how’s, why’s, and wherefores of its history. All that matters is they’ve got it now.

And that extends well beyond the Mechanicus. Such a device is, potentially, the salvation of the entire Imperium.

Whilst it almost universally lacks comprehension of technology, we can say with absolute certainty “boy, The Imperium is really good at following instructions and blueprints and that”. Which is why STC and fragments thereof are so critical.

A good copy of an STC file is all they need to churn out really quite staggering levels of technology. You don’t need to understand how or why it works. The STC says it will work, and provided you’ve followed it? So it does!

In the wider Imperium, normally the loss of a world like Necromunda would be a heavy one, as it’s typically for no gain on The Imperium’s behalf.

But even if ripping out the STC to cart it back to Mars lead to the wholesale loss of Necromunda? The STC, and all it promises, is possibly justification enough. Though for all concerned, I still think such a drastic and final action is right at the end of the list of “so you’ve found the Holy Grail, what next” playbook.

Not only because it could mean you get to have your STC and a highly productive and loyal lynchpin Hive World, but the more drastic the action, the greater the possibility of damaging the STC.

How would I go about it? Easy. Well. Pretty complex but still relatively easy.

Callidus Assassins. Work out how many Head Honchos Van Saar have, send in a matching number, plus some extra, Callidus Assassins. Bump off the originals, impersonate via Polymorphine, and agree to hand it over to the Mechanicus, either physically or metaphorically. And now we’re all off to Mars to be inducted and get lovely big shiny metal medals with all cogs glued on them, see you in a few centuries when we’ll return as heavily modified Priests, and anyone who knew us from before is all dead so you’ll just have take out word for it, or if you prefer, you can take my axe to your face for your temerity, yeah?

The STC isn't in the Underhive, though is it? I thought it was installed under the spaceport.

On the other hand I can definitely see it to be difficult to winnow the truth of STC presence amongst all of the other rumours and pure lies that will be circulating around. Necromunda has enough archeotech kicking about to provide a lot of cover to specific STC rumours, especially if there is an active STC that has been instructed to assist the Van Saar in preventing it from being found. Even if it is malfunctioning, it can conceivably create stealth devices, protective blackICE and protective data avatars and other such technogobbledygook


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It can probably also just churn out specialist servoskulls that are specifically programmed to sow discord and deception throughout Necromunda.

You also have to remember that the Spider Clan rules over all the little gangs.

They are the defacto PDF for the planet. They send their men off as tithes for the Astra Militarum.

I'm willing to bet that the Mechanicus deals only with them. Not some 2 bit underhive gang...

And The Spider Clan is not going to let anyone off planet believe there is a more powerful faction, with superior technology operating in their territory.

What?

Where did you get that from?

The Necromundan 8th Regiment of Imperial Guard is….just a Regiment.

Cursory Google suggests very old, pre-Necromunda, possibly pre-Confrontation background. Which has been superseded with the House system and backgrounds.

It's definitely a combination of hiding in plain sight and no information getting out.


The last bit may seem a bit unbelievable, but that is through a modern lense. Information today is incredibly difficult to hold on to. People are literate and educated just enough to enable tongues to wag about just about anything, and we can send messages across the world with less than no effort.

In the Imperium, most people are barely literate if at all. Those who are literate do not understand anything about the technology around them and they are kept in a permeant state of ignorance. And the few FTL methods of information sharing that do exist are not for idle chatter.

Very very very few people will even know what an STC is. If you don't know it's significance then how can you run your mouth to the Mechanicus? Its just another piece of wonderful technology, Jim from accounting worships the pencil sharpener... Every techpriest probably has thousands of stories about the mindless savage masses gushing over some "magical device" he was operating, and it was just an industrial floor scrubber.

Every Mechanicus dude is going to be kinda numb to regular people saying wonderous things about some random tech device he saw in the underhive. Perhaps a trained Explorator might be more trained in listening to the inane babble of the masses to get some rumors, but it's going to be difficult.

The Spiders are, on paper at least, considered a standing unit of the Necromundan Planetary Deefence Force...'
'Famous Regiments of the Imperial Guard' in White Dwarf 284 (UK), pg.80

Although, presumably given the very obvious Van Saar and Ratskin depictions in the 3rd edition Codex: Imperial Guard, wherever the Spire Hawks drop regiment come from (6th(?) ed. Rulebook), and the Helmawrr House forces operating off-world (Kal Jehricho: Above and Beyond) the Mechanicus must have dealings with other House-aligned forces as well.

There's another aspect to the Imperium - class.

Whilst each world is a law unto itself; there are very distinct classes and orders of society within the Imperium; and very much so on Necromunda.

Most of the Van Saar and leaks would likely happen within the Underhive/gang structure. So basically people who are not even the lowerclasses but closer to outcasts within the Hive.

Scum of the Earth type deal. Basically nobodies who aren't even cared about. Even the working class in the middle of the Hive isn't really cared about.

So there's every chance that many of the leaks over the years simply don't come from a trusted source enough that anyone in the upper reaches would ever bother to be concerned about it. Locals to Necromunda in power might have picked up enough to believe it and squash it further (because they don't want to lose their hivecity).

Don't forget the population of the hive is counted in billions and someone screaming that there's an STC hanging around is likely little different to someone screaming that the world is ending in the modern world. It's so outlandish no one is believing them.

Let's assume for simplicity that only the top ten most powerful Van Saar know about the STC. What could any of them get by informing the mechanicus about the STC? Wealth beyond anything Van Saar can deliver. Extended life beyond anything Van Saar can provide. A massive leg up towards becoming leader of Van Saar. Also, there is the motive of doing something very positive for the Imperium.

Meanwhile, if the leadership of another house gets knowledge of the STC they can draw upon the Mechanicus to take down Van Saar. Or if an Inquisitor gets a credible rumour about an STC they would have strong motive to tell the Mechanicus.

If say only three people in Van Saar knew about it and turned it on once a century, maybe just then it could remain secret for millennium. Otherwise, basically no chance.

When a person turns in their own dealer to the police there's every chance that the police could consider the person turning them in to be part of the dealing group and to punish them as well.


That's basically the level of thinking that likely goes on for why high ranking individuals have no turned the STC into the Mechanicus.

Another layer is the them-and-us; Mechanicus are part of them; the upper nobility of society. The people many gangers are jealous of (at best) to hate/loathe.

Another is that this is a grim dark future; the Mechanicus might well lobotomise you in the process of interrogation to make sure you're telling the truth or not hiding anything else.



There are so many ways it can go wrong. Meanwhile those at the very top of the gangs are not living all that badly.



As for other gang leaders and upper ranks; there's every chance that the Mechanicus fly in and take the whole city and could quite literally dismantle the whole thing and the population as they seek tech developed by the STC. So rather than just taking out a rival gang it takes out the whole system itself.

 Samsonov wrote:
Let's assume for simplicity that only the top ten most powerful Van Saar know about the STC. What could any of them get by informing the mechanicus about the STC? Wealth beyond anything Van Saar can deliver. Extended life beyond anything Van Saar can provide. A massive leg up towards becoming leader of Van Saar. Also, there is the motive of doing something very positive for the Imperium.

Shot for hiding one of the most valuable pieces of technology from the Mechanicus and their entire Hive (if not planet) enslaved/purged to make sure that there isn't an ounce of archeotech left.

No Van Saar is getting rewarded for tattling when they also have explicit knowledge that the House kept it hidden for five thousand years. They'll be lucky to live out the rest of their short life on a Penal World.

Meanwhile, if the leadership of another house gets knowledge of the STC they can draw upon the Mechanicus to take down Van Saar. Or if an Inquisitor gets a credible rumour about an STC they would have strong motive to tell the Mechanicus.

It's a good thing nobody gets anywhere near the depths of Van Saar territory to find out, and if they do, the STC program fights back. House Hera tried to take down the Van Saar in M38 by launching a massive cyber attack on their vaults. The STC defence programs then hacked into the House Hera systems and caused industrial accidents that brought the House to ruin.
More importantly, neither the Inquisition nor the Mechanicus have nearly enough resources or time to begin investigating the gang Houses of Necromunda on the slight chance one might have an STC. There are a lot of wars going on and the Imperium needs the supplies and bodies Necromunda provides more than it needs an investigation.

Don't forget the STC itself defensed itself against House Heras cyberattack.

There’s also the question of whether the Mechanicus even know what a STC Database looks like.

As their own Holy Grail, let’s consider the closing scenes of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Where the actual Grail is an innocuous, wooden cup. And not one of the dozen shiny, bejewelled precious metal goblets. It takes Indy a few seconds to choose wisely. And to be honest, that’s on reflection of seeing a very clearly poor choice.

For extra fun? We with our near god like knowledge of 40K and the stuff in it know Van Saar have a more or less completely if very leaky STC Database.

But do House Van Saar truly known what it is they’re mucking about with? Sure they know what it does. But that doesn’t mean they know the sheer, staggering importance of it.

Consider very, very few Imperial Citizens ever see more than their home world. And even then, few will venture beyond the sector of their birth.

So it seems entirely possible they’ve genuinely no idea they’ve got the only one within the known Galaxy. That they’ve seemingly got the only working one on Necromunda is enough to secure them station and influence. That they could barter that for far greater influence may simply never have occurred to them. It’s kept secret not because “if the Mechanicus discover we’ve got this, we’re toast”, but because it’s how they maintain the position and influence. It’s the thing that gives their House its edge.

The old Grey Knghts and Mechanicus codexes tell us that the forge moon of Diemos that orbits the moon if Titan has an STC that can create everything that is currently known by the Mechanicus, but cannot make the Nemesis weapons, which are made in Titan.

So the STCs are not the end all be all of tech... but really cool when you want to introduce new toys.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s also the question of whether the Mechanicus even know what a STC Database looks like.

As their own Holy Grail, let’s consider the closing scenes of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Where the actual Grail is an innocuous, wooden cup. And not one of the dozen shiny, bejewelled precious metal goblets. It takes Indy a few seconds to choose wisely. And to be honest, that’s on reflection of seeing a very clearly poor choice.

For extra fun? We with our near god like knowledge of 40K and the stuff in it know Van Saar have a more or less completely if very leaky STC Database.

But do House Van Saar truly known what it is they’re mucking about with? Sure they know what it does. But that doesn’t mean they know the sheer, staggering importance of it.

Consider very, very few Imperial Citizens ever see more than their home world. And even then, few will venture beyond the sector of their birth.

So it seems entirely possible they’ve genuinely no idea they’ve got the only one within the known Galaxy. That they’ve seemingly got the only working one on Necromunda is enough to secure them station and influence. That they could barter that for far greater influence may simply never have occurred to them. It’s kept secret not because “if the Mechanicus discover we’ve got this, we’re toast”, but because it’s how they maintain the position and influence. It’s the thing that gives their House its edge.

it's possible that they don;t realize it is an STC.. they might just think of it as an advanced computer. we don't even know how much they realize that it has an active AI of its own. remember they're not DAOT people themselves, they're the descendants of a bunch of scavengers that found the colony ship in M35, which used the colony ship's resources to build an industrial empire. they may not be technoreligious cultists like the mechanicus, but that doesn't mean they actually knew enough about what they found to identify everything correctly.

mithril2098 wrote:
There’s also the question of whether the Mechanicus even know what a STC Database looks like.

As their own Holy Grail, let’s consider the closing scenes of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Where the actual Grail is an innocuous, wooden cup. And not one of the dozen shiny, bejewelled precious metal goblets. It takes Indy a few seconds to choose wisely. And to be honest, that’s on reflection of seeing a very clearly poor choice.

For extra fun? We with our near god like knowledge of 40K and the stuff in it know Van Saar have a more or less completely if very leaky STC Database.

But do House Van Saar truly known what it is they’re mucking about with? Sure they know what it does. But that doesn’t mean they know the sheer, staggering importance of it.

Consider very, very few Imperial Citizens ever see more than their home world. And even then, few will venture beyond the sector of their birth.

So it seems entirely possible they’ve genuinely no idea they’ve got the only one within the known Galaxy. That they’ve seemingly got the only working one on Necromunda is enough to secure them station and influence. That they could barter that for far greater influence may simply never have occurred to them. It’s kept secret not because “if the Mechanicus discover we’ve got this, we’re toast”, but because it’s how they maintain the position and influence. It’s the thing that gives their House its edge.




it's possible that they don;t realize it is an STC.. they might just think of it as an advanced computer. we don't even know how much they realize that it has an active AI of its own. remember they're not DAOT people themselves, they're the descendants of a bunch of scavengers that found the colony ship in M35, which used the colony ship's resources to build an industrial empire. they may not be technoreligious cultists like the mechanicus, but that doesn't mean they actually knew enough about what they found to identify everything correctly.

The Van Saar actually seem to have a techno-religious cult around the STC. Any sufficiently advanced tech in 40K becomes like magic to the ignorant masses and eventually becomes worshipped. The latest Necromunda release about this former Van Saar member that tried to merge with the STC is also an example of this.

We should also consider that like any Clan House, Van Saar likely number well into the millions. To the point a Clan House is arguably the equivalent of a modern country unto itself.

How many UK citizens know every nook and cranny of the UK, how it all works, what all the laws and regulations are, what sort of resources our army has, what secrets might be kept by Whitehall etc.

Funny I see this thread cause I just started painting Van Saar (doing 4 at a time atm from a 8 mini tek hunter box) and wondered about how canon it was for my van saar to be admech loyalists (to be painted in the classic admech palette)

Still have to do a readthrough of this op though.

Btw do note that my (still under progress) lore to my van saar gang would be that they are not actually admech but infiltrate admech for the sake of a better mapping of threat and oppertunity, mostly to make sure that admech doesn't get on their tail for not worshipping tech, and in the process get dibs on whatever tech admech sends out this double-spy force to inspect. This is all in the overarching setting of that admech moved into their area with a much greater force and they had no choice but to become a bit of a chameleon to survive.Tell me if that all sounds very out of canon though, new to necrom.

edit: I suppose counter arguments could be that admech would notice on the tech differences and inabillity to communicate as expected, but one could diminish that with the idea of this group's status of loyalists rather than converts.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We should also consider that like any Clan House, Van Saar likely number well into the millions. To the point a Clan House is arguably the equivalent of a modern country unto itself.

How many UK citizens know every nook and cranny of the UK, how it all works, what all the laws and regulations are, what sort of resources our army has, what secrets might be kept by Whitehall etc.

I think it is much more likely the major clan houses, including Van Saar, run well into the billions. Most of the population of Hive Primus belong to one of the 6 clan houses*, and they all have major presences to varying degrees in other hives where the majority of the population will also belong to clan houses. There are probably smaller clan houses in other hives that have less influence and smaller populations, but in Primus more-or-less everything below the Wall and above the Underhive is controlled by one of the big 6 or the merchant guilds.

Nation states is an apt comparison, but the big 6 almost certainly make China and India look like sparsely-populated backwaters.


*Granted, there is something of a feudal system with lesser houses that pledge fealty to one of the big 6


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 Flinty wrote:
The STC isn't in the Underhive, though is it? I thought it was installed under the spaceport.

On the other hand I can definitely see it to be difficult to winnow the truth of STC presence amongst all of the other rumours and pure lies that will be circulating around. Necromunda has enough archeotech kicking about to provide a lot of cover to specific STC rumours, especially if there is an active STC that has been instructed to assist the Van Saar in preventing it from being found. Even if it is malfunctioning, it can conceivably create stealth devices, protective blackICE and protective data avatars and other such technogobbledygook


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It can probably also just churn out specialist servoskulls that are specifically programmed to sow discord and deception throughout Necromunda.

The archeotech swings both ways though. You'd expect a load of old tech frequently being dug up would make a lot of techpriests salivate to have a dig around, even if they are not expecting to find actual STC fragments. That they more-or-less confine themselves to the Eye of Selene (which was mysteriously built without Ad Mech help by the Van Saar!) is quite the unusual arrangement. Normally cogboys are a mundane part of Imperial life overseeing maintenance etc.

I do wonder if some rather metallic palms are being well-greased by Hel'Mawr over the years to keep them hands off.

It could be the Eye of Selene is of such marvel and, *ahem* exquisite preservation (because it clearly wasn’t built recently, it must be a relic of Better Times) that the Tech-Priests are too busy exploring it and trying to catalogue everything that they’re yet to turn their beady bionics toward a given Hive.


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Could the Ad Mech locals be receiving bribes?

I honestly don’t know. Would such bribery be pretty common place across the Imperium? Sure. I mean, the Cog Boys are a truly essential and indispensable part of any Imperial World, and only gain importance as you go up the developmental tree.

But bribed specifically about the STC? That I sincerely doubt, because of what a prize it is.

Sure, at the time of discovery you might be a journeyman or freshly qualified lowly Enginseer. But as we‘ve seen, The Imperium as a whole richly rewards those who uncover even a fragment.

For a Priest? Surely they are blessed in the eyes of the Omnissiah, and so will have to be part of the study of such a wonder. Not necessarily “nobody to Fabricator General in one easy step”. But your further advancement would surely be all but assured*

*Not allowing for jealous brethren trying to bump you off to claim it for their own.

I just don’t think there’s any bribe which would keep their metal mitts off.

So worded simpler, could a Van Saar gang effectively feign a role as Admech loyalists in a situation of having their region be invaded by Admech?

Probably not, no.

But they could feign “an STC? We had no idea. What is this STC you speak of”

If they were sane. Which is never a given in 40K. Especially in the feudal structure of Necromunda, where possession of the STC is inextricably linked to Van Saar’s fortune, and fortunes.

Lose that? And they’ve pretty much little else.

It's a good point about if the Van Saar know the STC as an STC. Much like how we are quick to spot demons whilst many in the setting might not know a demon from a xenos or a xenos from a demon. Let alone tell demons of different kinds from each other.

There's every chance most lower ranking Van Saar know there is a machine that does amazing things but not that its an STC by name.




As for a priest I suspect they'd have every reason to reveal the STC to their superiors. The only reason they'd hide it would be to gather influence and power for themselves to better their own position so that a superior in their order doesn't just take the report and claim the prize for themselves. But ultimately if Mechanicus found it they'd report it and want it reported. There's basically no downsides to reporting it and its all upsides

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Probably not, no.

But they could feign “an STC? We had no idea. What is this STC you speak of”

If they were sane. Which is never a given in 40K. Especially in the feudal structure of Necromunda, where possession of the STC is inextricably linked to Van Saar’s fortune, and fortunes.

Lose that? And they’ve pretty much little else.

Wouldn't it just be like any other person feigning loyalty/submission to an influx of admech activity in their region?
I'm not saying that they would convert themselves but that they will simply feign working for admech while in reality dibbing whatever they recover before handing it over to admech, like an underground resistance.

 Overread wrote:
When a person turns in their own dealer to the police there's every chance that the police could consider the person turning them in to be part of the dealing group and to punish them as well.

Informing the Mechanicus would not be without risks, but 40K and Necromunda is full of people taking risks for potential gain. Entire planets revolt, people join chaos cults, backstabbing and bribery must be common place on Necromunda. Same with real life, some criminals risk major jail time or execution but still commit crimes. Just imagine if 1% of people who had knowledge of the STC decided that potential rewards for informing the Mechanicus would be worth the potential risks. Over five millennium there are going to be many people in that 1% category unless an immensely low number of people know about it.

I perhaps could buy the notion that basically no one (like fifty people every millennia) realises it is an STC. Also, it is used insufficiently to arose suspicion.