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Made in gb
Calculating Commissar





England

I have been mulling this over for the last few days after staring at a muddy* animal paddock. The high-traffic areas of such look like a moonscape with overlapping hoof "craters", complete with a rim of expelled mud and partially filled with water. The surface definitely looked like it had received a heavy artillery bombardment at 40k scale and I was imaging how fighting over such a broken battlefield would look as manoeuvre would be challenging. Of course the next thought was that it would make a pretty cool 40k table to fight over a bombarded hellscape (perhaps with a clear rim to a protected area inside a shield).

Which leads me to this thread: how would the craters of a 40k orbital bombardment actually look? I think there are myriad possible interpretations to this as well as a huge variety of potential weapons used for bombardments, so I'm interested to hear the perspectives of others. I'll start by giving my own.

Firstly, some scope. Most orbital bombardments are likely to be carried out by Imperial, Chaos, Ork, and Tau forces, and probably the Leagues of Votann. I think a Tyranid bombardment is essentially a planetary invasion assault anyway and the various stripes of Eldar probably rarely use such a crude tactic.

Imperial and Chaos bombardments are mainly with either lances or "weapons batteries", which encompasses a hugely diverse range of large weaponry of various scales and types. Weapons batteries include directed energy weapons like lasers and plasma cannons, and more conventional artillery like missile launchers and macro cannons. I think the answer is fairly simple for any directed energy weapon including lances- the energy dumped into the ground probably burns a glassed crater. For the other munitions I think some questions need to be answered.

Most importantly, how do the munitions fired by conventional weapons batteries do damage? Personally I think they face very similar challenges to that faced by battleship combat of the late 19th and early to mid 20th century. Warships are armoured and not fixed in place, floating on the ocean or being in space, so even a very large explosion next to them is unlikely to significantly damage the vessel (although it will likely affect void shields). To penetrate the armour a direct hit is needed by a munition capable of punching through, but the best penetrators (like the sabot rounds used in anti-tank rounds) simply don't do enough damage if they penetrate because warships are really big. A 16" battleship gun is huge, but it is much smaller as a proportion of the battleship it is on compared to the 120mm (~5") cannon relative to the tank carrying it. To compound this problem, hitting even a warship at long range requires a spread of shots and even landing a handful is very lucky. So every shot that does hit needs to count, meaning the munitions need to carry some kind of explosive charge. Therefore I think the majority of conventional munitions for macrocannon and missile batteries will be some kind of armour-piercing high explosive warhead similar to battleship shells. Warships may carry specialised bombardment rounds that dispense with the armour piercing capability, but these are probably rare as they are for a niche application for a warship and the main rounds will have plenty of bombardment utility (such as bunker busting dug-in, anti-orbital defenses like defence lasers, missile silos, and command bunkers).

The next question is what kind of explosive? The Imperium has access to some very powerful conventional explosives, but I think these are still likely to be insufficient for damaging vessels on the scale of kilometres. I suspect most warheads encorporate plasma or fusion bombs that essentially are nuclear fusion weapons. Fission weapons are usually prohibited in the Imperium due to the long-term contamination of worlds so I doubt there are many of these. Some warships may use rarer warheads like graviton or whatnot with exotic effects.

Putting that together, we have weapons that probably have an armour piercing component paired with a delayed-fuse fusion bomb timed to detonate after clearing the armour. This means the shells will bury into the ground before detonating, so there are likely going to be huge craters unless the fuses can be changed to airburst (quite possible as weapons batteries can lay down blast fields to deter attack craft assaults). There may be some glassing near the epicentre of the craters as seen in real nuclear tests, but probably not a substantial amount.

How do I think that would look? Probably somewhere between the naval bombardment craters at Pointe du Hoc in Normandy, France and the nuclear craters from underground testing at the Nevada Test Site in the USA. The latter are mostly subsidence craters as the underground tests usually vapourised a hole, but they give an idea of scale. Given that hitting a kilometre-sized target over tens of thousands of kilometres range in a three dimensional space is extremely difficult, probably a large number of shots are fired. The batteries on Chaos vessels look to have large numbers of smaller weapons, whereas Imperial battleships often have a few larger gunports. I suspect the latter fires rounds that split into submunitions to cover a wider area, a bit like cluster munitions. So the individual rounds are probably not truly enormous as a good coverage is needed, hence why Nevada seems like a good reference for a broadside.

Here is an image of the Nevada Testing Site:


Here are the craters at Pointe du Hoc (these are from a mix of aerial bombardment, 14" fire from USS Texas, and 5" and 4" fire from destroyers):


I couldn't find any good pictures for 16" bombardment craters at D-Day, the closest was this photo of a tank apparently hit by HMS Rodney. Tank vs 16" shell has gone poorly for the tank:


So what do other people think of?


*The default state of any British paddock for about 3 quarters of a year...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/11/12 11:15:53


 ChargerIIC wrote:
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Look up the aftermath of the Battle of the Somme.


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I think in 40K orbital bombardment needs to be managed by your imagination. We know that the imperial navy and space marine fleets have the ability to decimate a planets surface from orbit. Annihilating buildings of all sizes, eradicating vegetation in blazes of fire, causing earthquakes and crazy weather events. But if they did that every time there would be no need for the ground combat that 40K is centered on.

So what’s the planet being attacked and what are the goals. Bring a population back under control? Level the capital city. Eradication of gene stealer cult, virus bombs and burn all the oxygen in the atmosphere. Then you can still go into the underground to look for remaining Xenos and terraform the planet again.

What I’m getting at is there exists every extreme possibility when it comes to orbital attacks and everything in between. Look at what they did to caliban
   
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England

Lathe Biosas wrote:Look up the aftermath of the Battle of the Somme.


I'm not convinced that WWI era field artillery tells us much about how an orbital bombardment from a kilometres-long ship would look. The shell craters are going to be much smaller and behave differently. There are some mine craters on the Western Front that do come to mind though. Those are well worth a visit and absolutely huge
mrFickle wrote:I think in 40K orbital bombardment needs to be managed by your imagination. We know that the imperial navy and space marine fleets have the ability to decimate a planets surface from orbit. Annihilating buildings of all sizes, eradicating vegetation in blazes of fire, causing earthquakes and crazy weather events. But if they did that every time there would be no need for the ground combat that 40K is centered on.

So what’s the planet being attacked and what are the goals. Bring a population back under control? Level the capital city. Eradication of gene stealer cult, virus bombs and burn all the oxygen in the atmosphere. Then you can still go into the underground to look for remaining Xenos and terraform the planet again.

What I’m getting at is there exists every extreme possibility when it comes to orbital attacks and everything in between. Look at what they did to caliban

So I'm not thinking about Exterminatus-level events where the planet is totally devastated. How the planet looks is a bit moot given no one can really go take a look anymore. But most bombardments are to cow worlds or in support of ground invasions and are focused on targets with the normal weapons found on warships. You mention levelling a city. How might a city levelled by a 40k warship actually look? If an army then had to fight over the bombarded terrain, say to assault a surviving, defended citadel resistant to bombardment, what terrain would they be fighting over?

 ChargerIIC wrote:
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It’s an interesting question, and not one I’m sure has a particularly set answer.

For Glassing a planet (so, energy weapons), the surface of Mandalore seems a useful touch point. Certainly that the glass only goes so deep feels realistic due to the heat required to make glass, and thermal dynamics and that.

But, what would it look like if first glassed, then subjected to more conventional munitions, such as Warship grade Macro Cannons?

Would there be lots of shards of glass on the surface, or explosive blooms of glass where the kinetic weapon threw up partially liquified glass which rapidly cooled.

I dunno, I’m not a physicist.

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"Moonscape" is the word for conventional munitions.

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 RaptorusRex wrote:
"Moonscape" is the word for conventional munitions.


Kurt Vonnegut, who survived the firebombing of Dresden, Germany, said that he was unable to describe the aftermath of the pure destruction of that beautiful city, until he watched Neil Armstrong on the moon.

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Moonscape but upscaled is probably the best description.

Trying to depict that on the tabletop is kinda impossible, as the craters would be big enough to swallow an entire battlefield. Maybe if you are playing an Epic scale game.

Literally nothing but craters comparable to repeated large scale meter impacts, whatever city, forest or mountain used to be there literally vaporized away. Fighting over that would be outright hilarious.
   
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Regarding liquid glass splash cooling, theres probably some useful perspective in volcanic glass types.
I dont think the heat rejection would be powerful enough for tall splash structures to form.
It strikes me that if there were standing lakes of liquid glass and bombardment was ongoing you would have low lying clouds of super-heated glass vapour condensing on everything (assuming the substrate wasnt melting)

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 Tyran wrote:
Moonscape but upscaled is probably the best description.

Trying to depict that on the tabletop is kinda impossible, as the craters would be big enough to swallow an entire battlefield. Maybe if you are playing an Epic scale game.

Literally nothing but craters comparable to repeated large scale meter impacts, whatever city, forest or mountain used to be there literally vaporized away. Fighting over that would be outright hilarious.

Crater size is an interesting one that I hadn't thought too much about. A 72" by 48" battlefield is (very roughly) 150m by 100m, which would be some pretty large craters, but not at all unfeasible. The Sedan crater from Project Plowshare is 390m across from a 105kt nuclear bomb, but that was at roughly optimum depth for crater size.

Having just gone down a bit of a rabbit hole for crater sizes, it apparently really REALLY depends on how big the yield is on the shells and at what altitude or depth they detonate (source= https://www.atomicarchive.com/resources/documents/effects/glasstone-dolan/chapter6.html). If a 100kt detonation occurred from an armour-piercing shell fused to explode after impact at a depth of 12m in hard, dry rock (say, concrete), the crater would be about 145m in diametre and almost 80m deep. If it was fused to airburst there might not be any crater at all but ground forces below the blast point could be devastated.

Size of crater does not scale linearly to increasing yield. Apparently it scales to the exponent of 0.3 as yield increases relative to a blast of 1kt.

Here are the graphs for crater size in a 1kt blast. The rough equation for larger blasts is apparently crater size for 1kt blast (in ft) x (size of blast in kilotons)^0.3 = expected crater size in ft. Same equation for depth and width. Graphs spoilered due to size:
Spoiler:





Need to go re-read some of the old "bigaton" threads to get an idea of what yields there might be on these weapons, obviously very approximate.

In rules, GW have given orbital bombardments blasts ranging from 5" to 15" (~10-30m) diametre, but that is probably either entirely scaled for game purposes or secondary precision weapons designed for close orbital support of friendly troops and not main batteries.

Edit: the numbers above are for radii, not diametres. Double for diametre.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/11/14 14:30:59


 ChargerIIC wrote:
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They are skyscrapers guns firing locomotive sized projectiles at thousands of kilometers per second.

The yield can vary depending on which assumptions you make, but you basically start on hundreds of megatons (per shot) and go up from that.
   
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At the tabletop scale, I wonder if its less about defined circular craters entirely contained on the board, and more about ridges that form between overlapping craters, which are all larger than the board. Might end up being a bit Bocage-like, excepts without the vegetation.

There might be some remains of building materials and foundations mixed in as surface scatter and deeper partially-buried remains, as can be seen in some of the more tragic current Ukranian cityscapes and WW2 strategic bombing post-hoc pics.

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 Haighus wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:Look up the aftermath of the Battle of the Somme.


I'm not convinced that WWI era field artillery tells us much about how an orbital bombardment from a kilometres-long ship would look. The shell craters are going to be much smaller and behave differently. There are some mine craters on the Western Front that do come to mind though. Those are well worth a visit and absolutely huge
mrFickle wrote:I think in 40K orbital bombardment needs to be managed by your imagination. We know that the imperial navy and space marine fleets have the ability to decimate a planets surface from orbit. Annihilating buildings of all sizes, eradicating vegetation in blazes of fire, causing earthquakes and crazy weather events. But if they did that every time there would be no need for the ground combat that 40K is centered on.

So what’s the planet being attacked and what are the goals. Bring a population back under control? Level the capital city. Eradication of gene stealer cult, virus bombs and burn all the oxygen in the atmosphere. Then you can still go into the underground to look for remaining Xenos and terraform the planet again.

What I’m getting at is there exists every extreme possibility when it comes to orbital attacks and everything in between. Look at what they did to caliban

So I'm not thinking about Exterminatus-level events where the planet is totally devastated. How the planet looks is a bit moot given no one can really go take a look anymore. But most bombardments are to cow worlds or in support of ground invasions and are focused on targets with the normal weapons found on warships. You mention levelling a city. How might a city levelled by a 40k warship actually look? If an army then had to fight over the bombarded terrain, say to assault a surviving, defended citadel resistant to bombardment, what terrain would they be fighting over?


I think the typical 40K aesthetic for a levelled city is shown in some of the recent animations put out by GW with SOB, astartes and necrons is. Basically a landscape of gothic ruins as far as the eye can see.
   
 
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