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So, this thread is kind of a spin of from the discussion about memes in general 40k.

My general understanding about orks was that they follow a rather simple minded approach to all things. Some rumors claim that they are the descendants of a bio-engineered species and supposedly all their knowledge is encoded into their DNA or their equivalent.
The power of belief, or WAAGH-field, supposedly gives them the ability to bend reality to their will. Now, the Orks seem completely unaware of this power. I have read several novels (mostly by Mike Brooks) about them, and I interpreted a lot of the sayings like the red ones go faster in a more metaphorical sense. Any speed freak believing his car must be the fastest will of course slap red paint on it, as he believes it will make it go faster. But of course he will also pay the Mekboy a hefty sum of teeth to get the best engines, lightest frame and so on. So is the color red what really distinguishes his car in speed, or is it more of an identification: those that painted their car red have invested a lot into it going fast. For Orks this may seem obvious (even if just unconsciously), yet for us humans that manage to create documents containing several hundreds of requirements just to be absolutely sure that the light of the car works as intended, this might not be the case.

So, dear loremasters, is it really the color red that makes them go faster?

Originally Ork tech just worked because Mekboys are geniuses due to their genetic engineering by the Brain Boyz.

In 3e, the background was mostly presented from the POV of the Imperium rather than an omniscient narrator. One of the excerpts referred to a theory from a (I think rogue) tech priest that the Ork tech worked because of a latent psychic field. I always took this to be kinda tongue in cheek, a Tech Priest trying to explain how a species of ignorant savages could have better tech than the glorious Priesthood of Mars, how could they possibly create technology beyond the ken of the Tech Priests? Nah, must be warp magic, filthy Xenos.

This was a very popular theory because it is very funny, and it sort allows for a slapstick cartoon physics to apply to Orks which is appealing. And so it gained momentum over time til I think at this point it's not a theory any more it's just part of the background.

Personally I really hate the idea that it's definitely true, I much preferred it when it was more ambiguous but I think that boat has sailed in the fandom at large.

Think of it this way:
The Waagh field acts like psychic lubricant. It doesn't magically pop things into existence, but it does make things work a little better and a little easier
An Ork Shoota works flawlessly in the hands of an Ork. That same weapon in the hands of a human will start to break down really fast due to the stresses of its high fire rate and ramshakle construction - factors that the Waagh field mitigates. It doesn't make an empty tube start firing rockets, but it does make a gun that should fall apart after a couple of bursts hold together

Combine that with Mekboyz' genetic memory:
- Orks believe Red Wunz Go Fasta
- Mekboyz subconsciously build the engines of Red vehicles a little better
- Waagh field helps an already better engine function more smoothly
- End result: Red Wunz Go fasta
- Orks see Red Wunz Going fasta
- Feedback loop begins

It SHOULD be the case that the slightly faster vehicle gets painted red because red is the 'fast colour', rather than 'hur dur magic did it'.

In exactly the same way that the Terminator Honours upgrade giving +1A wasn't the actual crux making the bearer better at fighting, but the guy who is good at fighting gets awarded a crux.

Could be a bit of both.

Where it gets confusing is that whilst a Mek has little true understanding of what makes their stuff work? They can A-Team pretty much anything with enough scrap, and are particularly noted for an affinity with Power Fields and Teleportation.

And whilst one can pay a Mek to make something for you? A lot of the time, it’s not clear to the Mek exactly what it is they’re building at the time. And for guns, you usually need to pull the trigger to find out. The best guns inevitably end up in the hands of the largest, most powerful Orks by the simple expedient of them beating up the original owner and claiming it for their own.

Does the Orky latent psychic field play a part? Probably. But to the point something will happen just because they believe it will? Not really. Not as such.

Example.

A Mek mocks up a Shoota or a Slugga, literally just a gun shaped lump of metal. No matter how snazzy and Killy it looks, it’s still never going to fire. Has no bullets, no moving parts, nothing to make it fire like a gun.

But. If he makes a Shoota, but say, leaves out the firing pin (or some Grot nicks it)? It could be the owner can get it to fire, as the psychic field fills in a relatively minor blank, if that Tech-Priests observations are at all reliable, and not further confirmation that a huge proportion of the Mechanicus has no real understanding of technology, only an ability to read blueprints and an instruction book.

On red ones? Could be a Mek just knows to paint a given build Red. But, it could also be that the Orky psychic stuff can give it just a little extra oomph. Nothing like a 5 or 10mph boost, but something to make the difference when neck and neck in a race. Could be a bit of both. Or, conversely? Where a buggy/bike isn’t painted Red, the owner/driver doesn’t truly give it his all.

When did the Madboyz come about? That background came with a lot of stuff about latent psychic fields and the real impact on the battlefield created by the collective lunacy of the madboy mob.

The original also comes from a societal observation of certain types of person in the real world that feel the need to paint go-faster stripes on their cars.

Rogue Trader era.

I’ve just sat down to me Nachos, but I’ll grab my old books after and share some quotes.

Honestly, I actually rather like the idea that "in the grim darkness of the distant future, there is only war" is the case because that's what the trillions of Orks across the galaxy all want most.

I remember a pretty heated discussion on dakka about that very topic and a specific line in a codex that went like: "Orks belief vehicles painted Red go faster - and therefor indeed they do!" or something along those lines. Someone correct me on the wording as I only have german codizes lying around, but actual fluff tidbits seem to be ambigous about the nature of the Orks' psychic field and their impact on Red paint.

Red Paint job was an actual vehicle upgrade at one time. And, yeah it basically comes down to "they believe it, so it is". I think it's like that scene from "The Hogfather" by Terry Prattchet: A lot of belief was going around and manifesting as anthropomorphic creatures, most notably "The Verruca Gnome"- but one of the wizards declared there should be a pixie that gives gold to him; nothing happened, because people can believe a gnome puts a wart on your foot, but not that a specific being gives money to one specific person!
So, Orks as a whole are willing to accept that red ones go faster- but if one says "Oi! Off-teal makes me invincible!" it wouldn't work, as that's not a common thing. While I am at it, the purple makes Orks invisible is bunk- it's a meme and a joke only worth a chuckle that people keep perpetuating!

Blue is considered lucky, hence why Dethskulls make liberal use of it. Whether it’s as lucky as WHFB Savage Orc Warpaint in 40K I’d need to read up on.

Internet gives you purple for sneaky and yellow for explosions, and while the latter can be associated with Bad Moons I'm pretty sure it's not actual fluff. They're rather yellow because they're rich.
Red goes faster, blue is lucky, Black is strong, Green is best.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
Red Paint job was an actual vehicle upgrade at one time. And, yeah it basically comes down to "they believe it, so it is". I think it's like that scene from "The Hogfather" by Terry Prattchet: A lot of belief was going around and manifesting as anthropomorphic creatures, most notably "The Verruca Gnome"- but one of the wizards declared there should be a pixie that gives gold to him; nothing happened, because people can believe a gnome puts a wart on your foot, but not that a specific being gives money to one specific person!
So, Orks as a whole are willing to accept that red ones go faster- but if one says "Oi! Off-teal makes me invincible!" it wouldn't work, as that's not a common thing. While I am at it, the purple makes Orks invisible is bunk- it's a meme and a joke only worth a chuckle that people keep perpetuating!

They never said it was because they believed it so it was true, only that vehicles with red paint jobs go faster. Vehicles with turbos go faster as well. Mekboys and orks consider red a fast colour, so they paint lots of things red but not everything that is red also goes faster. This is classic correlation/causation and success bias. Dreadnoughts and killa kans couldn't take the upgrade but could be painted red, as could warbikes and any ork infantry model. 90% of your army could be painted red and only a couple of models actually were faster as a result, so red does not in fact make you go fast.

Red paint was simply something they put on a vehicle that was fast. The background written at the time used GW's patented pseudo mystery speak, where they said 'ooh we don't know, could it be because they think red goes fast it does, or is it just their meks always painting the vehicles they built faster red? We'll never knowwwwww'. One assumes mekboyz are actually playing make believe and don't have genetically inbuilt knowledge on how to make tech and the other assumes they are actually knowledgeable and competent. I for one think treating all orks as cosplaying toddlers playing make believe wearing cogs to be the mek guy is dumb and GW never retconned their inbuilt genetic knowledge, so belief in red paint wouldn't be necessary if they knew what they were doing.



Now you can can make the argument that the psychic gestalt of the orks casts instinctual psychic powers, and that red paint falls under that and while a little dumb it's not out of line with the rest of the setting. Quickening makes anything it's cast on go faster - there's precedent for magic boosts in the game.

But what it doesn't support is the idea that orks can imagine wheels, engines and bullets into existence because they thunk it good.

I mean a red Ferrari doesn't go faster than a blue Ferrari, but it sure looks like it does.

I was reading the 7th edition Ork codex last night, it states a theory that the red paint job arose from vehicles splattered with enemy blood (Do Orks have red blood?).

I could see how the fastest trukks run down the most enemies and therefore the redder trukks are seen to be the fastest!

 Kroem wrote:
(Do Orks have red blood?)

Originally they had green blood. It was changed in 3rd edition to be red - primarily because it looked better, but the in-universe reason given was due to haemoglobin. Occasionally there will be a mention of green/black orkoid blood, which could either be viewed as errors, or an indication that the blood can change colour, possibly based upon diet (less food, more photosynthesis required, so chlorophyll in blood?) which is more interesting narratively.

There are other considerations regarding a vehicle’s potential top speed. For instance, F1 Teams make all sorts of teeny, tiny adjustments to the aerodynamics, as a tiny improvement can mean a hundredth of a second off a lap time, and that can land you first place. The right tyres can also aid grip, allowing you to take corners faster without leaving the track. A few grams or ounces of weight reduction can make the difference. And all these things, these tiny, seemingly insignificant little changes can add up.

And so it’s likely the same with Mekboyz. They don’t really comprehend what they’re doing, but they know it will work - their genetic programming assures that. And so, it’s entirely possible that same “I just know things” knowledge means they know which to paint red, because they know it’s a bit faster than the next one.

It could also be that rather than affecting the engine, the Orky psychic thing is slightly altering the flow of air around the vehicle. Like an invisible wedge, just a few inches in front, splitting the air immediately before the vehicle. Again, in the grand scheme of things that’s only a minor thing, but it can and will make the difference in overall speed.

 Gert wrote:
I mean a red Ferrari doesn't go faster than a blue Ferrari, but it sure looks like it does.

but a Red Vauxhall Nova most certainly goes faster, and is louder than a blue one, but the blue one is improved with red stripes

this stands to reason

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
(Do Orks have red blood?)

Originally they had green blood. It was changed in 3rd edition to be red - primarily because it looked better, but the in-universe reason given was due to haemoglobin. Occasionally there will be a mention of green/black orkoid blood, which could either be viewed as errors, or an indication that the blood can change colour, possibly based upon diet (less food, more photosynthesis required, so chlorophyll in blood?) which is more interesting narratively.

I swear no faction in 40K has more weird misinformation than Orks
Rogue Trader (Core book) says nothing about Ork blood
Waaargh! Orks states they have blood coloration based on their nutrient intake, which can be red blood, or purple blood, or black blood, it does not state Orks have green blood. At no point in Rogue Trader did Orks have green blood, this is a myth (they do, however, have two hearts)



2nd edition is where Ork blood was retconned into being green, it's mentioned in the 2nd edition Ork codex:


(which also reinforces that Ork blood is part of their digestive system)

The problem came in 3rd edition, see the Ork Codex for 3rd edition came out in 1999, and despite having quite an in-depth examination of ork biology and blood, it never mentions the colour. That's fine, right? last we heard, Ork blood was green, so it's still green, right?

But the Space Wolf codex came out in
What the hell does the Space Wolf codex have to do with Orks? The cover:

Yup, that's an Ork, with Red Blood
I cannot overstate how controversial at the time. this was the year 2000, and the majority of gamers had joined in 2nd/3rd edition, almost nobody could reference Rogue Trader, as far as anyone knew Ork blood had always been green, but now we have official artwork depicting red blood. The arguments raged back and forth. Artist error? retcon? is artwork even canon? (yes, we had canon arguments back then too)

So then we get the 4th edition codex, which tells us:


OK, well that's needlessly ambiguous, the skin is green *because* of the blood, but doesn't explicitly state the blood is green. Doesn't say otherwise, either. Doesn't help that the Ork word for Blood, Gor, is also their word for "red", so literally speaking, ork "Blood" is "Red". Gor is Gor.


...and so on and so forth. Honestly I can't be bothered to go through the following 7 editions to see which way it's gone each time, but I can categorically state that originally, in Rogue Trader, ork blood was not green. It was a lot of other colours, and it's been green occasionally afterwards, but in RT it wasn't.

So, what have we learned from this TED Talk on Ork blood:

If someone says something was true in Rogue Trader, it probably wasn't

If someone says something about Orks, it probably isn't true, or wasn't true, or has vacillated wildly over the years

Gor is Gor

I didn't know that the Waaargh (The) Orks mentioned colour. That's fun I suppose.


(White Dwarf 251 (UK) (November 2000)

The rules behind it have, as far as i'm aware, never stated the cause. It is always talked about in the sense of "Orks believe Red is faster. For some reason, Red tends to be faster"; correlation does not mean causation.
The original lore behind it even offered rational explanations, saying that an Ork in a red vehicle might be encouraged to drive even more recklessly, or a vehicle might be painted red alongside getting an engine upgrade.

The whole thing about Orks, their "belief", and the effects of colours and such, is basically down to taking lore completely out of context, no one actually bothering to read the lore, and memes exaggerating to absurd levels which no one then checks and takes at face value.
There are no 3rd person narrator examples that I am aware of in any Ork Codex saying that "Red does make things faster" "Blue does make them luckier" etc, it's just framed as being an Ork belief - and in turn, there is no 3rd person narrator lore saying that their belief actually does anything despite what the memes have been parroting for years.

The originals of the idea of their belief doing something, come exclusively from in-universe, and specifically from the perspective of the Mechanicus. The 3rd edition Ork codex is where it started, where there is a Magos Genetor Anzion who is studying Ork physiology. In that lore, he claims that the Ork field must be something that interacts with Ork tech and helps it work "as it should", because he claims to have examples of Ork weapon he can't get working, and claims that he's seen cases of red vehicles being faster.

There are however, several very important things to consider with this bit of lore, and it's what I mean when i say the whole thing is the result of taking lore entirely out of context, as it ends up drastically changes the original interpretation;
- he's a character who right at the start is outright said by another to be someone who has a tendency to speculate too much
- he gives a logical, rational explanation for why Red vehicles might be faster and gives a description of Ork Meks being skilled with subconcious knowledge to do the things they do. He then immediately claims there's no logical explanation despite him having just given one.
- There is no indication as to the extent of his investigation. It does not seem he's doing some sort of thorough analysis, especially as he's Mechanicus.
- The important thing about the Red vehicles that he has been being faster, is that they were vehicles that were only nominally the same. As in, not actually the same.
- He does not claim that they can do anything just by believing as the memes have repeated over and over and over, more the field works like a psychic lubricant.

And lastly, which i think is one of the most important parts, is that the character himself says he has underestimated Orks in the past. That is a common theme in the 3rd edition codex, characters underestimating Orks and claiming they can't do the things they can do.

So we have a character who we know speculates too much, who has underestimated Orks, in a codex with other examples of Imperials underestimating Orks, who contradicts himself, is basing what he's saying off what appears to just by a brief look at things, saying he won't underestimate Orks only to then claim the only explanation behind the things he's seen must be his own psychic field theory he's naming after himself because Orks must be magic rather than skilled, so once again underestimating them by saying Orks are unable to do the things that he had literally just said they could do.

Fans saw that, and made that very same mistake of underestimating Orks by thinking he was right. It's been years of repeating that lore out of context and based on just what others who have not read the lore either have claimed about it, so now we get some thinking Orks can do literally anything just be thinking something despite that not having any actual basis in the lore (not once has there been any example of Orks actually believing something into happening. Infact we outright have an example of the opposite where their belief did nothing, in i think one of the sanctus reach books) and being a massive exaggeration of what this characters theory even said in the first place.

Overall I agree, though we do have examples in the fluff of
- Orks creating a "Shadow in the warp" with their Waaagh energy
- a big choppa starting its engine when the hand of a dead ork is held next to it
- Power of a weirdboy increasing based on the amount of orks next to it
- Orks joining waaaghs seemingly instinctively

So, there are aspects that do hint at the psychic field of Orks, but whether that's just warp stuff like every 40K race has or something else, is ambigous I think.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Overall I agree, though we do have examples in the fluff of
- Orks creating a "Shadow in the warp" with their Waaagh energy
- a big choppa starting its engine when the hand of a dead ork is held next to it
- Power of a weirdboy increasing based on the amount of orks next to it
- Orks joining waaaghs seemingly instinctively

So, there are aspects that do hint at the psychic field of Orks, but whether that's just warp stuff like every 40K race has or something else, is ambigous I think.

The gestalt field is absolutely a thing, that has been talked about in multiple sources both in-universe and from 3rd person narrator codex lore and such.

It's the supposed effects of it however that have not been stated in such definitive terms, coming from questionable in-universe mechanicus sources that are either inconclusive or have caveats.

That choppa example you give from the War of the Beast series, what happens it by no means conclusive. The weapon evidently functions well enough as the tech priest makes no indication of it being literally impossible or whatever, and it's still on up until the point he removes the Orks arm that's holding it from the Ork - at which point, it quickly malfunctions despite still having power. His speculation is basically maybe the gestalt field was part of what was stopping it from malfunctiong up until then, but he even says himself he's not sure - it could just have been a coincidence.

I’m always going to urge caution when it comes to Imperial studies of any technology. Even high ranking Tech Priests have frankly questionable levels of actual knowledge.

The gestalt field does exist, because that’s what powers up Weirdboyz, why they’re kept in grounded towers when there’s not a proper scrap on offer, and indeed why they have a propensity to explode when the lads get really, really excited. It’s also why Orks experience greater confidence in greater numbers, as it seems to create a sort of feedback look of enthusiasm and excitement.

It’s also how a nascent Waaaagh! spreads. Essentially, when a large enough, but still fairly localised population of Orks first starts a Waaaagh!, the excitement and hype begins to attract other Orks, at least planetwide and perhaps even further afield (it’s not clear if there’s a minimum starting count of heads to get this going, but it may be triggered by relative scarcity of resources and/or boredom).

There’s a truly excellent short story which demonstrates a Waaaagh!’s beginning. Struggling to link to the whole thing, but here’s the opening paragraphs, where a Mek is inspired it build Gargants, the excitement of which would trigger a Waaagh! It goes on to describe Gork and Mork rousing in the warp, ignoring the pleas and threats of other Gods (including, possibly, The Emperor), and them getting other Orks hype for a Waaagh!, resulting in unusual level of cooperation among the lads.

Out of the gloom it came: a giant machine, human-shaped and deadly. Ushbek stared up at the eighty-foot monster in awe. Dragnatz threw himself on the ground and aimed his bolter, sending a hail of shells sparking of the giant's leg. With a creak of metal it passed over their foxhole. The earth shook as it went by.

The rest of the Boyz fled across the churned earth of the battlefield. The hunched metal giant stooped over them. There was a high pitched whine followed by a tremendous roar as the plasma erupted from its fists. Ushbek watched entranced as it turned the remaining Evil Sunz into steam.

"Oy, Mekboy, wot is dat zoggin' thing?" asked Dragnatz, sending another useless burst of fire after it. Bolter shells pattered of its leg like so much gentle rain.

"Dunno, Boss, but it's dead great," replied Ushbek. His brow creased with concentration. He had never seen anything so impressive, so inspirational so... shooty.

"Maybe itz da Emperor. Da humies iz always goin' on about how powerful he iz," suggested Dragnatz, spitting on the ground, "Maybe he'z cum ta give us Evil Sunz a good kickin'."

Uzbek watched a Wartrak bounce across the mud-plain towards the Humie machine, bolter flashing, crew screaming.

"Dat's Zorgob," Dragnatz said. "Don't give much for 'is chances. Stoopid git."

The metal giant stood on the Ork vehicle. Ushbek almost laughed. It made a sound just like the metal crusher in his scrapyard-cum-workshop back home.

Inspiration flared through him. Abruptly he was excited, just like when he ws driving his bike real fast only more so. He had a vision: if the Humans had built their god a metal body then maybe he could build the Ork Gods bodies too. Then Gork and Mork could gang up on the Emperor and give him a good stomping.

He stood frozen on the spot as bolter shells whizzed past his head like angry hornets. Huge, angry, violent, loadsa guns. Very shooty. Very shooty indeed. And he'd make them big. Bigger even than the Emperor. It was such a great idea, he wondered why he had never thought of it before.

His reverie was interrupted by Dragnatz tapping him on the shoulder. Ushbek looked in the direction he was pointing. A horde of Marines was swarming forward in the Emperor's wake, heading through the break in the Orkish lines.

"Time to leg it back to da ship, Mekboy. Da raid's over," said Dragnatz. Ushbek nodded agreement. He had to survive. He was now an Ork with a mission. He was going to change the history of the galaxy but he didn't know that yet.

What I think is very telling, but a lot of people seem to miss, is that the techpriest is just restating his own doctrine on how technology works, but is unhappy that it seems to apply to the orks as well.

Ask that same techpriest: is a human bolter more likely to jam if he refuses to pray to it after every battle? He will tell you yes, of course that's the case. If you disrespect a machine spirit it will be less cooperative.

Now lets say that a Tau Engineer has acquired a Space Marine's bolter, and a bunch of ammunition, and a field guide on its maintenance. He cleans and oils the bolter meticulously according to the guide but obviously doesn't bother with the chanting and superstitious nonsense. Then he test-fires the bolter 1000 times, cleaning and oiling again every 100 shots. And what he finds is baffling: the rate of misfire for the bolter is much higher than he predicted, it jams about 4% of the time early on in the testing and up to 9% in later tests. He reviews footage of Space Marines in combat and is further puzzled, because their bolters very rarely misfire even under much worse conditions. Indeed it seems implausible that Space Marines would be able to operate on extended campaigns with a misfire rate so high on their primary weapon, yet they continue to use them effectively.

What conclusions could the tau make from that experiment? What conclusion would the techpriest make?

Bearing in mind that the Orks are genetically engineered army designed to propel itself at the enemy and be self sufficient (I believe)

It could be that the old ones programmed in the colour coded beliefs as a simple way to help Orks organise themselves. Fast attack vehicles would be red, heavy ordinance is yellow, that way on the battle field Orks instinctively know what’s going on and who’s doing what.

I think the best thing about this theory of a collective psychic field making things work is we will never know for sure, the inner workings of the Orks will remain uncertain

If the Krork became the Orks (and I’m still not at all convinced), then the reproduction by Spore may have been a way to keep the Necron armies constantly busy, having to make regular sweeps of previously pacified planets, lest a new army of foes crop up in a fairly short space of time.

The Clans (which seem to be low level Oddboy type predilections) may have origins in a self sustaining caste system of sorts, and perhaps one which has gone on the wonk over the huge periods of time since the fall of the Necrons.

Snakebites for instance? A pioneer caste. Those who maintain and preserve relatively primitive survival practices, so in the event of a colossal defeat, any survivors aren’t restarting from scratch.

Bad Moons a Mercantile caste

And so on and so forth. If they were once the Krork, we don’t know if there’s been some kind of corruption or drift there.

With all the wibblywarpy stuff going on, it could be the Krork kind of corrupted its own species, after all fashion, birthing Gork and Mork through their (presumably programmed) love of battle, to the point it became a racial obsession.

I prefer the idea that the Krork are the ultimate odd boy. But an ork empire needs to become really really big to spawn one. I think one day Ghazkull will evolve into a Krork and save the galaxy from the nids.

There is speculation in I think Xenology that Ghaz is an Oddboy, specifically a leader caste, capable of taking effective command over huge numbers of Orks. This may be at least partially supported by the events of Ullanor and War of the Beast.

Of course, we also know the more an Ork fights, the bigger, stronger and bossier it becomes. All the more so if they’re really good fights. As in, if an Ork only ever fights Guardsmen over 10 years, they’d see less development than an Ork that fought Guardsmen, then Sisters of Battle, then Space Marines, then Custodes over the same 10 years. The quantity and quality of the fights both playing a role. Provided you don’t get perished.

Y’know, like a human doing weight training. Only doing the same weight range will keep you fit and healthy, but going up as your strength increases will add greater muscle mass.

mrFickle wrote:
I prefer the idea that the Krork are the ultimate odd boy. But an ork empire needs to become really really big to spawn one. I think one day Ghazkull will evolve into a Krork and save the galaxy from the nids.

Or finish their original mission and take out the 'crons.