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Showing my age here, and there may be some lore developments which I have missed, but why on terra is this new box set, named "Armageddon", the iconic site of the battles between Commissar Yarrick of the Imperial Guard and Ghazkull's Orks, featuring Orks and... space marines?

I know that Space Marines are paint-by-numbers posterchildren of 40k, but when did they become the go-to imperial faction one considers when thinking of Armageddon? Am I missing some lore that makes this make sense, or is it just because GW has some weird thing where every starter set must have people buy space marines?

Space marines out sell all other factions by a massive margin. They have been in every starter for this reason. The closest we got in in 6/7th they were specifically DA marines.

Nothing lore based, just sales and marketing.

The 2e starter set was set on Armageddon too, and the missions in the book were all about the Blood Angels relief force that saves the beleaguered Imperial Guard from defeat in a daring deployment from orbit.

Sort of a classic Space Marine story.

This box is a retread of that one, hence the Blood Angels vs. Orks theme.

And there has never and probably will never be a starter set that does not contain marines. Marine fans are crazy, they buy everything, and probably keep GW in the black on their own.

Yep, marines are the flagship army and typically the main gateway faction for a lot of people who have been exposed to warhammer in some way, whether it's Space Marine 2 or memes shown online. Marines have also been involved in all 3 wars of Armageddon, Space Wolves and Grey Knights for the 1st one, Blood Angels, Ultramarines, and Salamanders for the 2nd War and several marine chapters for the 3rd one, so that's why they're there even if they're not a chapter that's associated directly with Armageddon.

Marines are like a third of the factions in the game so including them in a non chapter specific manner has a wide audience

1. Space Marines are the most popular faction, and most beginner friendly

2. Space Marines also have historical ties to Armageddon (the 1st War had Grey Knights and Space Wolves, the 2nd had Blood Angels, Salamanders and Ultramarines, and the 3rd had just about any Chapter you could have wanted)

3. Space Marines have always been in every starter box so far, mostly because of point 1.

4. The box is a callback to 2nd ed 40k, which was also Orks vs Space Marines

MONEY

"Why did GW-?"
Money

"But it makes more sense to-"
Money

"But lorewise it should-"
Money

The answer to any "Why did GW" question is always going to be money. They're a business, that's how it works. Sometimes it's obviously money, sometimes you have to dig a little deeper, but it's always money

Why space marines in the starter set? Same reason it's been Space Marines in the starter set for the last 10 editions of 40k, they sell, and they're iconic, and they're easy to learn, which gets new players invested in starting the faction containing the easily-identified "good guys" of the game box, which means money.

If there wasn't a lore reason to include Space Marines, they'd invent one. Because they can, they control the lore and the contents of the launch box, so if they want a box based on Armageddon, and they want Space Marines in that box, then there will be a reason for Space Marines to be in that box

Because SM outsells every other faction in the game.

SM are also very new painter friendly. They have smooth armor surfaces and helmets, so a basecoat and a wash with a few pieces of detail picked out results in a decent first marine.

Guard have layered fabric and human skin, both of which can be challenging for new painters.

I have a feeling if the starter box was guard steel legion vs orks it would generate some insane hype.
But then again, gw seems to avoid steel legion concept like the plauge for some reason.

 Gitdakka wrote:
I have a feeling if the starter box was guard steel legion vs orks it would generate some insane hype.
But then again, gw seems to avoid steel legion concept like the plauge for some reason.

I don’t think you are wrong, but hype does not move boxes. Even if 100% of steel legion players, and then a chunk of other guard/new players bought boxes, it’s still going to be a shadow of the number of marines.

It’s not fair to all the other factions, and the spotlight is self reinforcing. But the reality is that marines sell. And that’s what the bottom line demands.

Luxury gay space communism for its own sake:

Luxury gay space communism for fair distribution of launch boxes:

The proportion of the community that remembers and cares about the Steel Legion is probably not even a full integer % at this point.

Such a box would be received extremely well by niche internet audiences but would not shift many boxes compared to marines

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The proportion of the community that remembers and cares about the Steel Legion is probably not even a full integer % at this point.

Such a box would be received extremely well by niche internet audiences but would not shift many boxes compared to marines

Most of the 40k playerbase doesn't really post online about it and most of the players who DO post are not on Dakka

 LunarSol wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The proportion of the community that remembers and cares about the Steel Legion is probably not even a full integer % at this point.

Such a box would be received extremely well by niche internet audiences but would not shift many boxes compared to marines

Most of the 40k playerbase doesn't really post online about it and most of the players who DO post are not on Dakka

To be fair, I think the percentage of Dakka posters who know/care about steel legion is going to be a lot higher then the general population. Did they have anything outside of 3rd edition miniature wise? The people who care are going to be old grognards rusting away on message boards like us. Most kids these days are going to have a minimal clue, and almost as much attachment to them.

I feel Marines are the definition of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Marines are in the starter.
So Marines are the most popular faction.
So Marines get more releases than every other faction (seemingly put together in some years).
So Marines sell the most.
So Marines are in the starter.
->you have been somewhere in this cycle for the past 40 years.

Clearly it works so GW have no motivation to change it. But I can't help feeling if GW tried pushing other factions as much as they push Marines, then maybe things would be a bit different.

Tyel wrote:
I feel Marines are the definition of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Marines are in the starter.
So Marines are the most popular faction.
So Marines get more releases than every other faction (seemingly put together in some years).
So Marines sell the most.
So Marines are in the starter.
->you have been somewhere in this cycle for the past 40 years.

Clearly it works so GW have no motivation to change it. But I can't help feeling if GW tried pushing other factions as much as they push Marines, then maybe things would be a bit different.

But that's not always been the case, there was a time when marines were very very different.
Marines have grown with the popularity, not the other way around.

We're at a point now where a lot of the 'old guard' have left GW and been away for long enough they've been comfortable talking about their GW history in interviews and things. One thing they've talked about is this idea of a "self fulfilling prophecy" - but the reality they describe is absolutely one of market forces. They tried to encourage other factions and such, but whenever they did everyone complained. Players complained because they didn't care about Eldar, they wanted Assault Marines. Store owners complained because they wouldn't make their sales targets but would absolutely smash them if it was a SM release, etc.

The simple reality is marines just resonate with more people than other factions do.
And it's easy to see why - marines basically define 40k now. They're also incredibly varied with their own central defining feature being "super awesome super soldiers" and you can layer whatever flavour you want on top of that (vampires, vikings, knights, modern soldiers, anything)

 kirotheavenger wrote:

But that's not always been the case, there was a time when marines were very very different.
Marines have grown with the popularity, not the other way around.

We're at a point now where a lot of the 'old guard' have left GW and been away for long enough they've been comfortable talking about their GW history in interviews and things. One thing they've talked about is this idea of a "self fulfilling prophecy" - but the reality they describe is absolutely one of market forces. They tried to encourage other factions and such, but whenever they did everyone complained. Players complained because they didn't care about Eldar, they wanted Assault Marines. Store owners complained because they wouldn't make their sales targets but would absolutely smash them if it was a SM release, etc.

The simple reality is marines just resonate with more people than other factions do.
And it's easy to see why - marines basically define 40k now. They're also incredibly varied with their own central defining feature being "super awesome super soldiers" and you can layer whatever flavour you want on top of that (vampires, vikings, knights, modern soldiers, anything)

You can SAY they've tried to popularize other factions, but if there's never been a starter box without Marines, I don't believe you when you say it. Like "We're continuing to ensure that marines have access to subfactions that matter, and we're taking that away from everyone else... But we updated Aspect Warriors and released a box of Kroot, so we're trying."

GW has NEVER tried giving any other faction as much attention as they've given Marines (with the possible exception of the original Rogue Trader game). Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken, willfully ignorant or outright lying.

Edit: The edition that came closest was 9th- the only edition where there were noticeable in-game differences between the subfactions of EVERY faction. It's why it was my favourite edition. Unfortunately, when you treat EVERY faction the way Marines have been treated since 2nd, players (many of whom are Marine players) complain about cognitive load.

"It's a Gotcha moment/ flanderization/ Card game style mechanic when there are differences between Hive Fleet Leviathan and Hive Fleet Behemoth, so just shut up and be generic Tyranid NPCs, while I zoom around the board because my dudes are from the Ravenwing."

I would put money - actual money - that if they released two starter kits, one of marines vs orks and one of Guard vs orks, and they made the Orks side of comparable desirability (so they don't get skewed by that), they would see high sales of both.

The marines boxes might sell more - because everyone who's bought a starter box, or a magazine, or a job lot online has picked up marines, so will want to expand their army - but there will be a huge amount of people, like myself, who don't want the new box because they don't want to waste half their money on marines.

I'd love to see a new era where they have 2 starter boxes, which has one without marines.

I always thought GW might have better launch sales if they made multiple versions of the starter set.

Each version would showcase 2 different armies. but all other contents still the same.

They would just take a percentage of their planned production run based on how well the 2 armies in the box have sold in the past.

For example, they have a planned production run of 100,000 starters.

They could release 50,000 SM vs Orks,
20,000 guard vs tyranid
20,000 tau vs necron
10,000 squat vs chaos

Just as a quick off-the-top-of-my-head example. There are a lot of players who skip the box set because they can't use the models. They already produce the sprues for individual box sets, so the only extra production cost is that of the cardboard box it's all packaged in. Which in the greater scheme of manufacturing, is basically pennies. And those people who go, I would have bought the starter set, but didn't care for the armies, now have an option and are more likely to pick up a starter.

I dunno. Maybe?

 PenitentJake wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

But that's not always been the case, there was a time when marines were very very different.
Marines have grown with the popularity, not the other way around.

We're at a point now where a lot of the 'old guard' have left GW and been away for long enough they've been comfortable talking about their GW history in interviews and things. One thing they've talked about is this idea of a "self fulfilling prophecy" - but the reality they describe is absolutely one of market forces. They tried to encourage other factions and such, but whenever they did everyone complained. Players complained because they didn't care about Eldar, they wanted Assault Marines. Store owners complained because they wouldn't make their sales targets but would absolutely smash them if it was a SM release, etc.

The simple reality is marines just resonate with more people than other factions do.
And it's easy to see why - marines basically define 40k now. They're also incredibly varied with their own central defining feature being "super awesome super soldiers" and you can layer whatever flavour you want on top of that (vampires, vikings, knights, modern soldiers, anything)

You can SAY they've tried to popularize other factions, but if there's never been a starter box without Marines, I don't believe you when you say it. Like "We're continuing to ensure that marines have access to subfactions that matter, and we're taking that away from everyone else... But we updated Aspect Warriors and released a box of Kroot, so we're trying."

GW has NEVER tried giving any other faction as much attention as they've given Marines (with the possible exception of the original Rogue Trader game). Anyone who says otherwise is mistaken, willfully ignorant or outright lying.

When you add the caveat with "except that one time when they did" you do make it very hard to argue with you I agree

And every starter set the marine half has always been the most popular half. Kids just dig Space Marines more than they do other factions

I was secretly hoping the launch box would be Grey Knights vs. Chaos Daemons.

I always thought that the best way to "Launch Box" was to say "New edition: buy any two Combat Patrol boxes and get the BRB free."

That way every faction in the game gets the "Edition Launch Effect"

 PenitentJake wrote:
I always thought that the best way to "Launch Box" was to say "New edition: buy any two Combat Patrol boxes and get the BRB free."

That way every faction in the game gets the "Edition Launch Effect"

Then you miss out on the story and setting of a launch box
Plus, GW doesn't do direct discounts. The closest they get is boxes

 kirotheavenger wrote:
But that's not always been the case, there was a time when marines were very very different.
Marines have grown with the popularity, not the other way around.

I'm pretty sure its been the case since 1995 when I started out in the hobby.
Orks maybe had a moment with Gorkamorka, but otherwise I'm struggling to think of anything that came close.
Custodes maybe a few years back - principally I suspect because they were even cheaper than marines and relatively easy to paint to a passable standard.

The thing is its an all-encompassing issue.
For example, were the original Sisters of Battle just really unpopular? Many people have claimed so.
But is this fluff/idea of the army - or was it instead that you got 10 Tactical Marines for £10 - but 6 sisters cost £20 (IIRC and double checking via possibly suspect AI searches).
And the 6 sisters were only worth about 2/3rds the points of the Marines. So a SoB army would end up costing about 3-5 times as much.
Okay you can say 14 year old boys are more likely to go for Space Marines (and I don't disagree). But GW's hand is very much on the scales.

kaotkbliss wrote:
I always thought GW might have better launch sales if they made multiple versions of the starter set.

Each version would showcase 2 different armies. but all other contents still the same.

They would just take a percentage of their planned production run based on how well the 2 armies in the box have sold in the past.

For example, they have a planned production run of 100,000 starters.

They could release 50,000 SM vs Orks,
20,000 guard vs tyranid
20,000 tau vs necron
10,000 squat vs chaos

Just as a quick off-the-top-of-my-head example. There are a lot of players who skip the box set because they can't use the models. They already produce the sprues for individual box sets, so the only extra production cost is that of the cardboard box it's all packaged in. Which in the greater scheme of manufacturing, is basically pennies. And those people who go, I would have bought the starter set, but didn't care for the armies, now have an option and are more likely to pick up a starter.

I dunno. Maybe?

The costs here don't scale linearly; it costs a lot more to design sprues/create moulds than it does to make more copies of a sprue you've already got the moulds for. I don't know the exact prices/ratios, but if as you suggest GW were going to design sprues four times as many bespoke easy-build starter kit forces every edition the costs of the starter kits would probably be significantly higher.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
I always thought GW might have better launch sales if they made multiple versions of the starter set.

Each version would showcase 2 different armies. but all other contents still the same.

They would just take a percentage of their planned production run based on how well the 2 armies in the box have sold in the past.

For example, they have a planned production run of 100,000 starters.

They could release 50,000 SM vs Orks,
20,000 guard vs tyranid
20,000 tau vs necron
10,000 squat vs chaos

Just as a quick off-the-top-of-my-head example. There are a lot of players who skip the box set because they can't use the models. They already produce the sprues for individual box sets, so the only extra production cost is that of the cardboard box it's all packaged in. Which in the greater scheme of manufacturing, is basically pennies. And those people who go, I would have bought the starter set, but didn't care for the armies, now have an option and are more likely to pick up a starter.

I dunno. Maybe?

The costs here don't scale linearly; it costs a lot more to design sprues/create moulds than it does to make more copies of a sprue you've already got the moulds for. I don't know the exact prices/ratios, but if as you suggest GW were going to design sprues four times as many bespoke easy-build starter kit forces every edition the costs of the starter kits would probably be significantly higher.

Or, they could use sprues they are already producing.
On the otherhand, if they are going to update sculpts anyways then thy're going to have that cost regardless. From what I hear and what I've seen on ebay, most their newer stuff is going to mostly monopose anyway, even if it is mult-part. Somewhere between 2nd ed simplicity and (I think it was 3rd, maybe 4th) complexity. Which would actually be a pretty good sweet-spot for beginners and vets alike.

kaotkbliss wrote:
...Or, they could use sprues they are already producing...

This is called "releasing a new set of combat patrols," which is going to happen during the edition. The starter box is specifically a set of new push-fit minis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kaotkbliss wrote:
...if they are going to update sculpts anyways...

That's a tall order. The most current Eldar Combat Patrol has Dire Avengers in it, which are the exact same models that were in the 4e-era "battleforce" box I bought when I was starting the game twenty years ago.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
...Or, they could use sprues they are already producing...

This is called "releasing a new set of combat patrols," which is going to happen during the edition. The starter box is specifically a set of new push-fit minis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kaotkbliss wrote:
...if they are going to update sculpts anyways...

That's a tall order. The most current Eldar Combat Patrol has Dire Avengers in it, which are the exact same models that were in the 4e-era "battleforce" box I bought when I was starting the game twenty years ago.

Who couldn't use more Dire Avengers?
Really, they only need to update 2 base units for each faction, and if they don't wait until the last minute to do so...
I always thought GW should really wait to release a new edition until everything was ready first. (More of an issue in earlier editions when codices were still being released for the previous edition just a few months before a new edition released)
Honestly, I'd much rather have an old sculpt over the push-fit if there's time constraints.

Why was the first Marvel/DC team up between Spider-Man and Superman and not between Brother Voodoo and Brother Power the Geek?!

Why are the best teams always in the World Series, why not give someone else a chance?

Why are there a dozen Batman films and no Hawkman films!?

That being said, my heart weeps to think of what a Steel Legion/Ork box would look like. It would be glorious.