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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
All of this Carmen stuff is via Kevin's RRT Kickstarter Updates, without any 3rd party corroboration. For all I know, Kevin & Carmen made the entire thing up to get Forar, Asterios, et al banned on Kickstarter prior to the KS launch, preventing them from trolling the Rifts BG KS when it finally goes live.

Of course, that requires a certain level of planning, urgency and execution that has not been otherwise demonstrated in the RRT Kickstarter...

Just sayin'

Yeah, I'm doubtful on that one.

If that were the plan, they would've let it run for longer than a few hours of back and forth, across a half day period. Run it for at least a couple of days, maybe a week, let everyone get good and frothed up, keep things heated but give us enough rope to hang ourselves before pulling the plug.

As a 'false flag' operation, it was too brief and escalated too quickly for it to be much good.

And yes, of course, "but if PB was doing it of course it was done wrong, hur hur hur", and someone is contractually obligated to point out.

If we're going to assume bad faith, we should look at what they've achieved.

A couple of time outs that will end before their next campaign concludes (assuming it goes ahead on a similar timeframe) doesn't even achieve that. At best, they may have garnered some attention and perhaps contributions based on empathy for someone struggling.

But as far as tactical gambits go, I think riling up a couple thousand people is not a good play. They probably would've come out ahead if they just let this all remain settled down to the same simmer it has been at for years now.

And anyone that says "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is just so very wrong.

Boy I am heading off arguments left and right today.

However, anyone stopping by the new Kickstarter to point out the "success" RRT will immediately be shouted down for attempted murder.

So, likely they're getting what they want.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Of course, that requires a certain level of planning, urgency and execution that has not been otherwise demonstrated in the RRT Kickstarter...

I'm trying to remember a quote that goes something like "never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence"

Granted after blowing 1.4mil maybe trying to save his own skin has made Kev a little smarter.

I'm pretty sure Kevin believes his own narrative. Even if he doesn't have the money, his IP is valuable and the right buyer will swoop in and he'll be able to finish(*)!

(*) Sometime before 2030.

Well, I'm going to get shouted down for attempted murder most likely.

Honestly, the suicide attempt actually adds to the unreliability and shakiness of the whole thing, and if they go ahead with with it I will still be there with my $1 to make sure anyone not in the know is going to know.

While I can't really say they planned this, they strike me as the type to try to take advantage of it.

Merijeek wrote:
However, anyone stopping by the new Kickstarter to point out the "success" RRT will immediately be shouted down for attempted murder.

IMO, it's a huge risk that the person responsible for the Rifts BG KS is bipolar and won't stay on their meds. It's fully documented in the RRT KS, further in the PBWU. I think any potential backer needs to be aware of that, and it may well need to be part of the official Risks.

The other obvious risk to the Rifts BG KS is Carmen actually committing suicide for whatever reason. What happens at that point? I think the KS needs to address this as well.

if they go ahead with with it I will still be there with my $1 to make sure anyone not in the know is going to know.

You're a brave Micronian.

I'll be there too, at least until they ban me again.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
However, anyone stopping by the new Kickstarter to point out the "success" RRT will immediately be shouted down for attempted murder.

IMO, it's a huge risk that the person responsible for the Rifts BG KS is bipolar and won't stay on their meds. It's fully documented in the RRT KS, further in the PBWU. I think any potential backer needs to be aware of that, and it may well need to be part of the official Risks.

The other obvious risk to the Rifts BG KS is Carmen actually committing suicide for whatever reason. What happens at that point? I think the KS needs to address this as well.

It's a far larger risk that the person running the Rifts BG KS apparently thinks backers have no legal avenues with which to pursue any action from AGs or class-action lawsuits against PB and that as long as PB keeps churning out worthless updates, backers can't touch PB and only Carmen can save RRT. Basically, not an attitude I want to hear coming from a potential KS creator about how backers are powerless.

So yeah, my $1 will be in as well

 ScarletRose wrote:

Of course, that requires a certain level of planning, urgency and execution that has not been otherwise demonstrated in the RRT Kickstarter...

I'm trying to remember a quote that goes something like "never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence"

Granted after blowing 1.4mil maybe trying to save his own skin has made Kev a little smarter.

You're quoting Hanlen's Razor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In this case, it would be more ascribing competence to that which might be more accurately ascribed to coincidence.

And for this one, we turn to the yellow one, Homer Simpson.

Pulling a Homer - to succeed despite idiocy.

The only time anyone will be to hold Rogue Heroes accountable is during the campaign. Palladium has proven you can run silent and run deep for years and that you can reiterate the same update as many times as you feel like it without any heat from Kickstarter. People should be asking questions like, "What is the absolute latest date before refunds will be issued? No excuses, no backpedaling, an iron clad date that if there's no game we get refunds." Something that can be pointed to as legally binding should the project fail to produce, given the track record of RRT this would only make sense. Course you won't get an answer like that. Any request to enter a legally binding contract as an investor in Rogue Heroes will be ignored or brushed off that Kickstarter will do it's due diligence which we've seen is nothing.

Did the Defiance Games backers ever get any sort of compensation or did Kickstarter shrug its shoulders and tell them to get lost as well?

 TwoGunBob wrote:
The only time anyone will be to hold Rogue Heroes accountable is during the campaign. Palladium has proven you can run silent and run deep for years and that you can reiterate to same update as many times as you feel like it without and heat from Kickstarter.

Stated extremely well. To be remembered and regurgitated when the time comes.

Glad I took the weekend off to stay out of things.
You guys were busy!
@Forar: You seem to be the great historian of RRT, the well thought out presentation of facts are invaluable when faced with people who would like to rewrite history. Thanks.

I could say all manner of comments to Kevin's notes on his weekly update but I will keep it short: I threw up a little.
To so confidently describe what went on inside a person's head who was "insane" enough to try to end their life: he has no clue and should not even pretend to know.
Turning it into a rallying point for creative people to be strong against the naysayers: it all becomes about him in the end.
The sense of entitlement to using other's money to fulfill those dreams without regard to at least the social contract that entails is more selfish than his words try to convey.

I am concerned with why there is such a rush that Carmen is reporting for duty already.
The body can heal at a set rate but the mind?
I honestly think further exposure to Kevin is not going to help with that process.
I am glad he was able to drop a note for people however, I think it is important he speak for himself rather than let others run off with it.

This project certainly has gone down the rabbit hole a fair bit hasn't it?
I can certainly empathize with those who observe that it was "worth it for the entertainment value": it is like a very bad soap opera.

I've seen some people calling for Kevin to refund Carmen his license fee which on the surface seems like a good idea but the greater issue is that Carmen has already fully invested himself into sculpting the miniatures and the game artwork. Those things do not come cheaply and since they've been paid for in advance would be a significant loss to simply write off by cancelling the project. He's trapped in a no win situation where he's already committed everything to. I can easily understand why he'd be terrified of things tanking due to the negativity that RRT and anything PB related has generated but at the same time the backlash from the backers is very justified and given how long he's been involved with Palladium he certainly should be well aware of the environment that PB has fostered and cultured.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
All of this Carmen stuff is via Kevin's RRT Kickstarter Updates, without any 3rd party corroboration. For all I know, Kevin & Carmen made the entire thing up to get Forar, Asterios, et al banned on Kickstarter prior to the KS launch, preventing them from trolling the Rifts BG KS when it finally goes live.

Of course, that requires a certain level of planning, urgency and execution that has not been otherwise demonstrated in the RRT Kickstarter...

Just sayin'

doubt they were out to get me, since I was never a part of the pledge money to the RBG and watch it burn crowd. furthermore as to why I was banned, that is still a mystery, I sent them a message asking why I was banned and no response yet.

 stanman wrote:
I've seen some people calling for Kevin to refund Carmen his license fee which on the surface seems like a good idea but the greater issue is that Carmen has already fully invested himself into sculpting the miniatures and the game artwork. Those things do not come cheaply and since they've been paid for in advance would be a significant loss to simply write off by cancelling the project. He's trapped in a no win situation where he's already committed everything to. I can easily understand why he'd be terrified of things tanking due to the negativity that RRT and anything PB related has generated but at the same time the backlash from the backers is very justified and given how long he's been involved with Palladium he certainly should be well aware of the environment that PB has fostered and cultured.

I told carmen his endeavor is doomed to failure, especially as his new companies flagship game, he would have been better off coming up with his own IP and doing so would have had mostly praise and well wishes, but he had to use a toxic IP from a toxic company which will destroy not only his game, but his company and his personal life.

 Talizvar wrote:
I am concerned with why there is such a rush that Carmen is reporting for duty already.

Just regarding this point, it was stated by Carmen, over on the PB Forums, I believe, that the reason it has to be done soon, is because of a fairly strict timeline that Kevin has put forward. I initially assumed that was more to dissuade the "Wait until after Wave 2" proponents, but I wouldn't put it past Kevin to have some kind of bulldrek clause that sees the licensing fee forfeit after a certain point if a product hasn't been made. Yes, I appreciate the irony of Kevin holding someone else to a contractual timeline.

There's also the issue of him having a fair amount of money tied up in development. If it'd been general savings, that'd be one thing, but if he's taken out loans or a second mortgage or something, or even if it's just the people he got to work on the sculpts etc are owed, that might mean having to hurry things along to get the cashflow needed to relieve some financial stresses.

Asterios wrote:
I told carmen his endeavor is doomed to failure, especially as his new companies flagship game, he would have been better off coming up with his own IP and doing so would have had mostly praise and well wishes, but he had to use a toxic IP from a toxic company which will destroy not only his game, but his company and his personal life.

While I agree that he would be better doing his own IP, Carmen has been putting money into the project for at least two years. The feedback he's gotten via the PB forums is much too late in the game to have any impact as he's already tied himself to that rock a long time ago and there's no turning back unless he wants to scrap thousands of dollars worth of sculpting and start over from scratch. It's something that should have been considered more heavily at the beginning of the project rather than half way to launch, but hindsight is 20/20.

He's a fan of Rifts and saw value in using it as he believed that he could reach a larger audience with it, which in a normal situation isn't a bad move. But given how badly they've handled RRT it's poisoned the well considerably. Savage Worlds proved that you can still have a successful KS with a PB related IP, but the key difference is that they have an established track record and are known to be a truly independent company outside of PB, where Carmen is an unknown that for all purposes looks like an in house employee/arm of PB so he'd have to work much harder to win trust from people. Not impossible, but likely far more work than he'd anticipated and once his fan friend bubble had burst he was looking at some very harsh realities.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
I am concerned with why there is such a rush that Carmen is reporting for duty already.

Just regarding this point, it was stated by Carmen, over on the PB Forums, I believe, that the reason it has to be done soon, is because of a fairly strict timeline that Kevin has put forward. I initially assumed that was more to dissuade the "Wait until after Wave 2" proponents, but I wouldn't put it past Kevin to have some kind of bulldrek clause that sees the licensing fee forfeit after a certain point if a product hasn't been made. Yes, I appreciate the irony of Kevin holding someone else to a contractual timeline.

he most likely bought the IP license for a set time like a year, with Kevin to decide what to do in a years time, I hope this is not the case cause if so, then Kevin can really screw over Carmen.

 stanman wrote:

Asterios wrote:
I told carmen his endeavor is doomed to failure, especially as his new companies flagship game, he would have been better off coming up with his own IP and doing so would have had mostly praise and well wishes, but he had to use a toxic IP from a toxic company which will destroy not only his game, but his company and his personal life.

While I agree that he would be better doing his own IP, Carmen has been putting money into the project for at least two years. The feedback he's gotten via the PB forums is much too late in the game to have any impact as he's already tied himself to that rock a long time ago and there's no turning back unless he wants to scrap thousands of dollars worth of sculpting and start over from scratch. It's something that should have been considered more heavily at the beginning of the project rather than half way to launch, but hindsight is 20/20.

He's a fan of Rifts and saw value in using it as he believed that he could reach a larger audience with it, which in a normal situation isn't a bad move. But given how badly they've handled RRT it's poisoned the well considerably. Savage Worlds proved that you can still have a successful KS with a PB related IP, but the key difference is that they have an established track record and are known to be a truly independent company outside of PB, where Carmen is an unknown that for all purposes looks like an in house employee/arm of PB so he'd have to work much harder to win trust from people. Not impossible, but likely far more work than he'd anticipated and once his fan friend bubble had burst he was looking at some very harsh realities.

like you said, he is a new company, that's marks against him, his only known work in gaming is all Palladium Product, and he lives near their offices, another mark against him, but alas Kevin placed the biggest mark against any successful kickstarter for this game, and no its not RRT, its Kevin's announcement of Carmen's attempted Suicide, that attempted suicide will deter a lot of people from pledging in fear of not seeing anything. also it will cause people to question Carmen's mental state because of it. Kevin destroyed Carmen and was the figurative straw too.

Exactly, Kevin has made Carmen appear far too overworked and stressed and he is at the pre-kickstarter phase. The real work hasn't even started yet and it already seems like Unca Kev is poised, licking his hungry chops, to push Carmen out of the way at the drop of a hat to relieve Carmen of this burden and take over. That's the personal fear I have, that Carmen will be pushed aside so Unca Kev can 'save him from the stress because we don't want another incident'.
I think a lot of boardgame backers will be upset come 2018 when they find board game AND RRT updates in the same paragraph with meaningless "we're working on it honest!" as the awesome updates.

Just to be the devil's advocate for a moment and take a step back to look at what Carmen/Rogue Studios have said about RBg and what might be needed.

From their facebook page the core set will be rules, tokens, reversible map tiles and 32 miniatures or which some will be the same - basic troopers?. These miniatures are to be preassembled, one piece models, but no definate on material but probably softer boardgame plastic.

Now this does seem to me to be a simpler , more doabe prospect thatn what ND/Palladium put forward for RTT and I am suggesting is relatively acheivable with good management- of my recent KS's I look at the delivery from Emergent games on Fireteam Zero which was their first KS.

Therefore even as a first project, I think that if they are allowed to work on this themselves they will deliver and do so within a reasonable timescale.

Success and stretch goals will create their own issues but should not be that difficult to solve , as long as their eye is on the ball and given this will be their only project why should it be elsewhere?

Okay, we can all see the flaw and the big white elephant sitting in the room. I just cannot see Kevin just letting go of his favourite IP, standing aside and letting them get on with it. He is going to be itching to be involved (make that interfere) and get his name in design lights somewhere on this product.

I was not going to back it anyway - the IP and another generic guys on maps game does not appeal - but for now I am also as sure that I do not want to trash something straightaway, because of my contempt for Kevin and Palladium

Kevin couldn't refund Carmen if he wanted to, as Kevin has already allocated the funds to next month's rent (Or convention travel, seeing the list he's supposed to be attending).

@TwoGunBob

KS did nothing about Defiance Games and made it clear it was an issue between backers and Tony. After all, KS had already got their cut...Tony declaring bankruptcy wasn't going to affect them. In the end, backers got nothing - Tony even "pulled" an offer to give the backers .STL files for self-printing because somebody supposedly announced the possible offer on the KS page.

That campaign, Prodos AVP and this one has made it a guarantee I will never back another KS, as it has proven that once things go south, you have no power to hold either KS or the creator responsible. I'll just wait until the actual product gets to retail, thanks very much.

like I said Carmen's game was doomed from the start, and not because of him sadly, he can thank Kevin for the failure.

After I was dropped from my work on the Robotech project I said that anything happening under Kevin's control didn't look good and the game would crash and burn because of it. I called this outcome well before ND had even signed on. People didn't want to believe me at the time and said I was carrying on over sour grapes. They likewise cut ND out of the fold and now they are stuck in a mire with no way out, color me surprised.

It sucks to see that people are out money, but I tried to warn people. ::Shrug::

 paulson games wrote:
After I was dropped from my work on the Robotech project I said that anything happening under Kevin's control didn't look good and the game would crash and burn because of it. I called this outcome well before ND had even signed on. People didn't want to believe me at the time and said I was carrying on over sour grapes. They likewise cut ND out of the fold and now they are stuck in a mire with no way out, color me surprised.

It sucks to see that people are out money, but I tried to warn people. ::Shrug::

its all your fault for bringing them the idea

Yeah, Paulson was right. I withhold for a long time because I thought they gave you a raw deal. I should have stuck to my convictions but I had wanted a Robotech game for so long, although not as much as Paulson Games. You saw the dream start coming to fruition and then Kevin... I assume a lot of what went down but you were/are under a NDA regarding it, right?

Yes Kevin makes sure he covers all of his dealings with a NDA whenever possible. While it doesn't offer PB complete protection from bad press or their "master plans" from being revealed it does make it more difficult as there's constraints on what can be said publicly. Production numbers and specifics can't be addressed, but I can still discuss aspects of it that I had no involvement in such as anything that happened after I was dropped (and ND took over) my personal opinion is also fair game to post about.

So I can't quote Kevin directly on stuff we talked about, I can say that I disagreed with a lot of his ideas and thought that he seemed rather bi polar based our conversations. There were very obvious red flags as to where difficulties would pop up in a business partnership and also it was very clear he had no understanding of the miniatures industry. I wanted very badly to help make Robotech into something great like it deserved to be, however that has to happen within a reasonable set of conditions which were not being catered to by PB. Reasonable people all seem to walk away from PB (or are driven away), if you spend any significant time dealing with Kevin in person you'll quickly realize there's a strong reason for that.



I'd still like to see Robotech thrive as a game, however that's not going to be possible while it's under Palladium's thumb. HG doesn't seem to have any interest in allowing anyone else access to those rights so the only thing I (or anyone else) can do is keep watching the train wreck from the sidelines.

Kind of what I thought. I had my righteous indignation all fired up when you were tossed out and then I allowed it to be chipped away by that gnawing want. You designed it up and really made it happen and honestly I think it would have gone the distance with you but alas. I think you were right about the popularity, robbed when you were ousted from the project, and then right again that Kevin would muck it up.

I think the game still had a shot while ND was onboard, once that dissolved it was the final nail. I wasn't around at that point so I don't know the inner dealings on that but I've spoken at length several times with John at ND and I feel like I've gotten a good feel for who he is and what he's about and I don't get the sense that the failure was on their end. ND has had some their own issues stemming from being new and growing rapidly, but so far when it's left up to John's direction they've gotten all of their games into production and they've done well. ND knows their market very well and does a bang up job on their minis, which PB is pretty much the exact opposite of.

Had I been completely un-involved I likely would have backed the KS as it did look good especially being flagshipped by Ninja DIvision. But my personal dealings with Kevin and PB gave me a different insight and I didn't trust that Kevin would keep his hands off things. ND had some solid looking renders and models, but even with the best of those the game falls apart without somebody promoting it and organized play which PB is absolutely clueless on. Unfortunately things fell apart before they could get that in place, much less a finished game.

^and they pissed away the efforts of those who tried to do all they could like me and mike

I honestly get the impression that Ninja Division, while being far from saints themselves would have been more honest and upfront about every single aspect of the delays involved in this kickstarter.

Even if it had dragged out this long under their care I would still hold more hope that it would eventually see fullfillment than I do now.

At least the Ninjas actually have an interest in their own product.

I hate to say Ninja Division has done the best thing they could: say as little as possible of the product as soon as it was no longer contractually theirs. There really in no winning morally or in the eyes of the public. As angry customers of the project we will grasp at any group that appears to care, like a drowning man. Kevin keeps taunting us with a life preserver made of rock.

I agree that ND was right to just stay quiet. As much as Palladium waffles around in their updates they've stuck to whatever contractual obligations they have with ND as neither company has lashed out venomously at the other. Besides fairly obvious who blundered as one company has gone on to produce other successful kickstarters while the other is desperately trying to huckster Rifter subscriptions for a couple bucks to keep the lights on.
I'd completely forgotten about Prodos. They burned their bridge with me on Warzone, though. Can't remember what flippant comments they made about those of us playing the older editions but it was enough to make me vow never to back anything they were involved in. Guess I was lucky in at least one regard.

Now I'm going to have to go research back to figure out how/when Prodos pissed me off.