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Just finished a test game for a list I'm running at a tournament this weekend. Some take aways:

Demon Prince with wings is pretty much a must have atm in my mind. The combination of attacks, mobility, buffs, and psychic powers makes him one of the stronger units in the entire army, even if he is a bit soft.
Raptors are way better as highly mobile melta gun platforms. Squads of 5 with 2 Meltaguns and a a Combi Melta work way better than any form of assault Raptor variant. This makes my inner night lord sad, but what are you gonna do?

Powerfists and a great buy for Champions on berserker units, since it's twice the attacks for the same points. The berserker squad did fairly well, even with only 6 dudes, probably gonna be staying in my list.

Contemptor dreadnought retains MVP status. Dropped him in with a Dreadclaw, slew a Gorkanaught, a Battle Wagon, 3 mega nobz, and a Warboss in mega armor. The nobz rolled pretty badly when they charged, but just the same, that 4+ invul on a Dread doing 4 damage and AP -4 is pretty friggin awesome.

Dreadclaw is a useful delivery system, and a decent harassing unit. I see the Kharybdis as much better, but mine isn't here yet. The part where transported models must immediately deepstrike is a bit of a pain, but whatever.

Fire Raptor is a gnarly heavy weapons platform. A LOT of dakka, and hits on 2+ with prescience... what's not to like? Used the quad heavy bolters and just shredded light vehicles and infantry. This might be our best fire support platform in the game atm.

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Just finished a test game for a list I'm running at a tournament this weekend. Some take aways:

Demon Prince with wings is pretty much a must have atm in my mind. The combination of attacks, mobility, buffs, and psychic powers makes him one of the stronger units in the entire army, even if he is a bit soft.
Raptors are way better as highly mobile melta gun platforms. Squads of 5 with 2 Meltaguns and a a Combi Melta work way better than any form of assault Raptor variant. This makes my inner night lord sad, but what are you gonna do?

Powerfists and a great buy for Champions on berserker units, since it's twice the attacks for the same points. The berserker squad did fairly well, even with only 6 dudes, probably gonna be staying in my list.

Contemptor dreadnought retains MVP status. Dropped him in with a Dreadclaw, slew a Gorkanaught, a Battle Wagon, 3 mega nobz, and a Warboss in mega armor. The nobz rolled pretty badly when they charged, but just the same, that 4+ invul on a Dread doing 4 damage and AP -4 is pretty friggin awesome.

Dreadclaw is a useful delivery system, and a decent harassing unit. I see the Kharybdis as much better, but mine isn't here yet. The part where transported models must immediately deepstrike is a bit of a pain, but whatever.

Fire Raptor is a gnarly heavy weapons platform. A LOT of dakka, and hits on 2+ with prescience... what's not to like? Used the quad heavy bolters and just shredded light vehicles and infantry. This might be our best fire support platform in the game atm.

Good imput. I am trying to get my nurgle more solid of an army. Will need to grab a DP

Used Khorne with 2 units of 10 Beserkers. Once they get there, yea very nasty.

Havent taken a contemptor, though I might after your success. 2 Power fists on it?

Fire raptor is one of the best gun platforms in the game period I believe. I use it with 2 twin las and the quad heavy bolters with its avenger cannon. It hovers near Roboute getting reroll to hit and wound. so nasty it doesent need to be super sonic ever

I played a NL themed list of Raptors Havocs, a jump lord, bike lord, and Daemon Prince.

Managed to kill a Baneblade by turn 2 with shooting, an assault and finally a melta drop. Then turnes on the leman Russ squadron killing all 3.

Nkw this may not have been possible at all in 7th.

Here's hoping Traitor CT make us even better!

Contemptor equipping is 1 Chainclaw, 1 siegeclaw. 5 attacks, AP -4 (suck it knights), and damage 4. With soulburners and a couple heavy weapon shots before contact, I've 1 turned knights twice at this point. The only problem is if they get a chance to shot him up before he makes contact.

I hadn't realized fire raptor was 2x twin lascannons.... that's a game changer... mwhahaha

In all seriousness, I think we are back in the top 5 for armies, and we don't even have our codex yet!

 Kajaki War Pig wrote:
Contemptor equipping is 1 Chainclaw, 1 siegeclaw. 5 attacks, AP -4 (suck it knights), and damage 4. With soulburners and a couple heavy weapon shots before contact, I've 1 turned knights twice at this point. The only problem is if they get a chance to shot him up before he makes contact.

I hadn't realized fire raptor was 2x twin lascannons.... that's a game changer... mwhahaha

In all seriousness, I think we are back in the top 5 for armies, and we don't even have our codex yet!

You seem to be having fun with the Forgeworld chaos models, have you tried the Hellforged Leviathan with double Butcher Cannon Arays? That thing looks nasty. Also, seeing as you are a fellow warrior of the war cry "Ave Dominus Nox", have you tried either of the Hell twins: HellBlade and Helltalon? The Hellblade looks pretty bad but the Helltalons bomb could be nice for clearing conscript/boy/gaunt blobs.

Not that i'm complaining.. but twin lascannon isn't even an option for the fire raptor model. And the heresy rules doesn't have it.. how on earth can this be converted without ruining the model.. sigh

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Not that i'm complaining.. but twin lascannon isn't even an option for the fire raptor model. And the heresy rules doesn't have it.. how on earth can this be converted without ruining the model.. sigh

Couldn't you replace it's missile nipples (scientific terminology) with Lascannon tips?

I just read through the CSM forgeworld FAQ and noticed that the Contemptor can be given 2 ranged weapons again. Is there any justification for doing this over taking something like a Leviathan or Deredeo? Additionally on the Contemptor, how valuable is the second claw - 40 or so points for +1 attack seems pretty steep when you're trading away the opportunity to have a BS2+ ranged weapon as well. Are people bothering with the Soulburners in the melee weapons, or are those just too expensive for what they offer? EDIT: Also is the Havoc Launcher worth considering?

Additionally, though not specifically related to Chaos, was there ever an update in the FAQ regarding transports and how it affected the number of drops in your army for first turn? I definitely feel as though I remember reading a clarification in the FAQ, but going back to it now, I just can't seem to find it.

Asura Varuna wrote:
I just read through the CSM forgeworld FAQ and noticed that the Contemptor can be given 2 ranged weapons again. Is there any justification for doing this over taking something like a Leviathan or Deredeo? Additionally on the Contemptor, how valuable is the second claw - 40 or so points for +1 attack seems pretty steep when you're trading away the opportunity to have a BS2+ ranged weapon as well. Are people bothering with the Soulburners in the melee weapons, or are those just too expensive for what they offer? EDIT: Also is the Havoc Launcher worth considering?

Additionally, though not specifically related to Chaos, was there ever an update in the FAQ regarding transports and how it affected the number of drops in your army for first turn? I definitely feel as though I remember reading a clarification in the FAQ, but going back to it now, I just can't seem to find it.

The only way to get the best shooting weapon for a comtemptor is to take claws, the soul burner is absolutely nasty 2+ to hit where every hit does a mortal wound is really good.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Not that i'm complaining.. but twin lascannon isn't even an option for the fire raptor model. And the heresy rules doesn't have it.. how on earth can this be converted without ruining the model.. sigh

You replace the missiles. Can do Las cannon tips.

Asura Varuna wrote:
I just read through the CSM forgeworld FAQ and noticed that the Contemptor can be given 2 ranged weapons again. Is there any justification for doing this over taking something like a Leviathan or Deredeo? Additionally on the Contemptor, how valuable is the second claw - 40 or so points for +1 attack seems pretty steep when you're trading away the opportunity to have a BS2+ ranged weapon as well. Are people bothering with the Soulburners in the melee weapons, or are those just too expensive for what they offer? EDIT: Also is the Havoc Launcher worth considering?

Additionally, though not specifically related to Chaos, was there ever an update in the FAQ regarding transports and how it affected the number of drops in your army for first turn? I definitely feel as though I remember reading a clarification in the FAQ, but going back to it now, I just can't seem to find it.

The leviathan puts out the largest amount of shooting on the most entirely durable platform at the highest cost.

The deredeo can buff a nearby unit/model and puts out the least amount of firepower, but is also relatively cheap. It's basically used if you want a force multiplier.

The Contemptor is the middle ground - more shooty than the deredo but not a force multiplier and not as shooty as a leviathan but cheaper.

Any of the three can be used for their intended purpose IMO, but I like the leviathan the best. It helps that I am in love with the model also


If by "drops" you mean how many turns it will take you to deploy your army, then its pretty straightforward. Any units or models that can fit in a transport plus the transport itself count as 1 "turn" or "drop" for deployment.

If you're asking if a unit inside a transport counts towards half your army being either deployed or in reserves, IMO it counts towards neither (with the exception of Necrons and their weird rule, which looks to me like those models are in reserves on their tomb world). But that's not been FAQ'd, though I hope they do in the next round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

str00dles1 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Not that i'm complaining.. but twin lascannon isn't even an option for the fire raptor model. And the heresy rules doesn't have it.. how on earth can this be converted without ruining the model.. sigh

You replace the missiles. Can do Las cannon tips.

I've also seen under the wing lascannons. I think those parts were bought after the fact though

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Not that i'm complaining.. but twin lascannon isn't even an option for the fire raptor model. And the heresy rules doesn't have it.. how on earth can this be converted without ruining the model.. sigh

The storm eagle kit comes with twin lacannons that replace the missiles under the wings. It is just a plate with the barrels coming out.

 Darksider wrote:
Nice report and cool army. But how did the daemonprince take the relic, it is only allowed to get picked up by infantry models?

Oh! I didn't know that is my bad it was my first time playing the relic I just assumed the daemon prince could pick it up, he was the consultanting the rulebook and didn't say I couldn't, that is quite upsetting since that changes how the game would have gone.

Anyone tried using terminators much in this edition. When the rules first dropped, deepstriking Khorne Terminators with Warptime support seemed like an appealing turn 1 prospect. Has anyone had any experience with this?

I'm considering adding some to my army in the form of Cataphractii terminators (because the armour looks awesome) with the forgeworld "power" chainaxes conversion kit. And was wondering also whether people had had much experience with loadouts - axes and combi-plasma all around seems like a reasonable option for about 50 points each.

Asura Varuna wrote:
Anyone tried using terminators much in this edition. When the rules first dropped, deepstriking Khorne Terminators with Warptime support seemed like an appealing turn 1 prospect. Has anyone had any experience with this?

I'm considering adding some to my army in the form of Cataphractii terminators (because the armour looks awesome) with the forgeworld "power" chainaxes conversion kit. And was wondering also whether people had had much experience with loadouts - axes and combi-plasma all around seems like a reasonable option for about 50 points each.

If you have the points, I find power fists are better: a volley of plasma + a round of power fisting is a good tool to bring down anything big your opponant takes, or to at least cripple it (the big monster isn't so scary when it becomes WS/BS5+ or in the case of Orks 6+). They are stupidly expensive but they do their job of alpha striking problem units. If you are going to run them with Power axes only, don't be suprised if they don't do much damage.

I like going cheap with combi-bolter and power sword/axe with the champ armed with a chainfist. Storm/combi-bolters are one of the best weapons now due to being rapid fire and cheap.

 Rydria wrote:
I like going cheap with combi-bolter and power sword/axe with the champ armed with a chainfist. Storm/combi-bolters are one of the best weapons now due to being rapid fire and cheap.

That's if you want to use them for Horde cleaning but even then they only do about 5 kills depending on the Horde and 5 isn't much for a 50 man conscript unit or 30 man Ork unit, the latter of which will tear you a new hole come their turn.

I really want to like the Fire Raptor.
I probably will end up with one too!

But... I can't decide. Fire Raptor or Levi dread with twin Butcher Arrays?


Pros for Dread :
Flamers give assault protection
4++ in combat, 5++ out of combat
It can heal from kills
2+ sv
T8
I'll stop here

Fire Raptor :
Has excellent movement
-1 to hit, assuming you don't want lords' re-rolls


I ran a few scenarios.

I gave both re-roll 1's. Assuming Fire Raptor is hovering. (less survivable)

I have excluded flamers and missiles from calculations.



-- Against a Ghost Keel - T6, W12, Sv 3+, Invuln 5+, -1 to hit. (I think these are the stats?) x1


Levi + Butcher (Twin) -
Turns to kill : 1.45
Damage per turn : 8.3
Weapon efficiency : 19.29pts per damage


Raptor + Bolters -
Quad Bolters :
Turns to kill : 5.14
Damage per turn : 2.33
Weapon efficiency : 30.86pts per damage

Bolt Cannons :
Turns to kill : 3.09
Damage per turn : 3.89
Weapon efficiency : - (free weapon)
Kills squad in : 2 turns



--- Against a hoard of Orks T4, 6+ x30

Levi + Butcher (Twin) -
Turns to kill : 2.31
Damage per turn : 12.96
Weapon efficiency : 12.34pts per damage


Raptor + Bolters -
Quad Bolters :
Turns to kill : 2.41
Damage per turn : 12.44
Weapon efficiency : 5.79pts per damage

Bolt Cannons :
Turns to kill : 5.79
Damage per turn : 5.19
Weapon efficiency : - (free weapon)
Kills squad in : 2 turns



--- Against a Marines T4, 3+ x10

Levi + Butcher (Twin) -
Turns to kill : 1.54
Damage per turn : 6.48
Weapon efficiency : 24.69pts per damage


Raptor + Bolters -
Quad Bolters :
Turns to kill : 1.61
Damage per turn : 6.22
Weapon efficiency : 11.57pts per damage

Bolt Cannons :
Turns to kill : 2.89
Damage per turn : 3.46
Weapon efficiency : - (free weapon)
Kills Squad in : 2 turns



--- Against a knight T8, 3+, 5++, W24 x1

Levi + Butcher (Twin) -
Turns to kill : 3.9
Damage per turn : 7.78
Weapon efficiency : 20.57pts per damage


Raptor + Bolters -
Quad Bolters :
Turns to kill : 7.71
Damage per turn : 3.11
Weapon efficiency : 23.14pts per damage

Bolt Cannons :
Turns to kill : 6.94
Damage per turn : 3.46
Weapon efficiency : - (free weapon)
Kills Squad in : 4 turns


Summary : Its close.
Fire Raptor is better against low Toughness.
Not considering the -2Ld debuff on targets.

However, the dreadnought is much tougher.

Thoughts?

What's the points difference? Also, are you taking into account the Raptor is equipped with 2 Quad Heavy Bolters?

Yes I am, I calculated with 24 shots and doubled the pts cost.

The pts different is about 7pts.
Including flamers and missiles.

So fully equipped.

362 - Raptor
369 - Levi

Honestly I'm all about using the Leviathan as partly melee so I'd only ever use one gun. It just seems like a crime to waste those gorgeous melee stats.

So for your purpose I say Fire Raptor.

@ Slayer
I know what you mean.

But what if its Flyer Spam or Hoards (Which there is a lot of)

Then you have half a leviathan for full price?! :(

mcsheehy wrote:
Yes I am, I calculated with 24 shots and doubled the pts cost.

The pts different is about 7pts.
Including flamers and missiles.

So fully equipped.

362 - Raptor
369 - Levi

Hmmm...

What about some toughness calculations? How do the two fair versus Battlecannons, Lascannons and Autocannons? The Leviathan has better toughness and save but the Raptor has the -1 to hit, what's the crunch?

mcsheehy wrote:
@ Slayer
I know what you mean.

But what if its Flyer Spam or Hoards (Which there is a lot of)

Then you have half a leviathan for full price?! :(

What are hordes to a Butcher Cannon or Grav Bomb? I'm content with going in on the charge, knowing full well I have other assault units when things look bad.

Regarding fliers, that's a good question. Autocannon Raptors are still awesome for the job, and of course there's Forgefiends (though less efficient at it), different Rapier batteries, etc. Depends how you want to go about it, to be honest.

I'll come back to you on that Happy.
Give me 10 mins

@Slayer
The Butcher cannon will go to town on Hoards. Killing 13 a turn (orcs) plus that -2. He will lose through Morale.

Gravflux is the most effective against hoards.

Ill edit this post with my findings.

Going to run;
Fire Raptor vs Leviathan (No re-rolls)

Havocs (4 Lascannons)

Knight (Battle Cannon + Avenger)

Space Marine, Rapid Fire Range

Want any more , let me know.

mcsheehy wrote:
I'll come back to you on that Happy.
Give me 10 mins

@Slayer
The Butcher cannon will go to town on Hoards. Killing 13 a turn (orcs) plus that -2. He will lose through Morale.

Gravflux is the most effective against hoards.

Ill edit this post with my findings.

Going to run;
Fire Raptor vs Leviathan (No re-rolls)

Havocs (4 Lascannons)

Knight (Battle Cannon + Avenger)

Space Marine, Rapid Fire Range

Want any more , let me know.

Thanks, I'd have a go myself but I don't feel my head's up to mental maths at the moment.

Ok, Here's the results.

No re-rolls.

Leviathan


Leviathan being shot by the Fire Raptor (Excluding missile)
Total unsaved damage per turn : 4 Damage
Turns to kill : 3.5

Assuming the Leviathan kills 8 models a turn.
Turns to kill : 6



Leviathan being shot by 4 Havocs (Las)
Total unsaved damage per turn : 4.15 Damage
Turns to kill : 3.38

Assuming the Leviathan kills 8 models a turn.
Turns to kill : 5.54


Leviathan being shot by Knight (Avenger/RFBC)
Total unsaved damage per turn : 5 Damage
Turns to kill : 2.8

Assuming the Leviathan kills 8 models a turn.
Turns to kill : 4.4



Leviathan being shot by 20 Marines
Total unsaved damage per turn : 0.74 Damage
Turns to kill : 18.9

Assuming the Leviathan kills 8 models a turn.
Turns to kill : 87.75





Fire Raptor



Fire Raptor being shot by the Leviathan (Excluding Flamer)
Total unsaved damage per turn : 7.11 Damage
Turns to kill : 2.25



Fire Raptor being shot by 4 Havocs (Las)
Total unsaved damage per turn : 3.89 Damage
Turns to kill : 4.11


Fire Raptor being shot by Knight (Avenger/RFBC)[/b]
Total unsaved damage per turn : 5.78 Damage
Turns to kill : 2.77



Fire Raptor being shot by 20 Marines
Total unsaved damage per turn : 2.22 Damage
Turns to kill : 7.2



So,

The Leviathan is clearly the tougher target.
While it suffers similarly to the Knight and the Havocs.
It wipes the floor with the Raptor in a straight up fight.

If you have it hammering some T4 targets, you can easily kill 8 a turn.
On this note, if you hammer all the T4 targets, the fire raptor will be shooing EVERYTHING at you all game. Thats a pretty good trade off. Especially since you can ignore it.
Giving you decent healing and making it nigh invincible to normal marines!

Another thing to think about IRT the Fire Raptor... Prescience. Casting prescience on a fire raptor once, on turn one, means all of those weapons are hitting on a 2+. If this is a demon prince standing next to him, he can re-roll those 1's to hit.

Definitely vote leviathan for close combat, but for first turn sheer firepower, the Fire Raptor is my go to choice.

I'm gonna chime in as a FR owner and say go wit hthe liviathan because putting that model together will make you hate it for at least a year regardless of the damage it outputs XD

Just had a game tonight small one 1000pts heavy bolter rapiers are pretty sick... interesting rules thing came up... guy charges the marines then the next turn they fell back... technically the rapier rules are written so the marines can still fire them

Got a bit of a downer on normal marines, think you guys are right havocs just seem like a better option be it heavy or spec weps.

First time using Kharn, not the total beast i was expecting but i did have him try and take on 5 custodes... didnt end well.

Jugger lord with a power axe thou... nice little unit.

Asura Varuna wrote:
Anyone tried using terminators much in this edition. When the rules first dropped, deepstriking Khorne Terminators with Warptime support seemed like an appealing turn 1 prospect. Has anyone had any experience with this?

I'm running a sub-optimal Terminator squad that's still been the unit of the match for me every game. I built them with what I had, and before the indexes were available, so I'm running a Reaper Autocannon (~BARF~), a combi-bolter and three combi-meltas. There are two power axes, two powerfists and a chainfist. I back them up with a Terminator Sorcerer, and Prescience + Warptime makes them FEARSOME. The biggest challenge is clearing away the bubble wrap by turn 3, but it's been rather effective so far. The only real caveat with this is that you'd be wise to take something besides the Sorcerer as the warlord. While durable, he certainly becomes a target.