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 BoomWolf wrote:
Considering I actually use scorge helbrutes, its been rather silly of me to forget they make a valid target XD

Yeah, I run 1 Maulerfiend for the HP regen, but keep eyeing Helbrutes since they are a bit cheaper.

A single fiend is probably a good idea though.
Daemonforge is practically one of the most efficient stratagems out there, only rivaled by things hitting large squads.

I've loved my helbrute with scourge and fist. Makes a mess of things if they make it to the front lines. Warp Time and Diabolic Str work very well together

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.

Yeah, but if there on disks you can LoS them for the first turn and then move them up 12( 24 with warptime) unload and charge, more then likely making thier points back in a single turn.

Also am I the only person that struggles when having to choose what to cast diabolical strength on?

1) you can, but they're pretty tall, so LOS is a challenge, which you don't have to deal with if you deep strike something. After all, you can "just" LOS magnus so that he doesn't get killed by lascannons turn 1, so whats the big deal him not having deep strike? Given that you get exactly 1 warptime, and you've probably got better targets for it (magnus, some scarab occult, 40 tzaangors, a daemon prince, a maulerfiend/defiler/dreadnought/whatever) you're unlikely to be warptiming a little skyfire squad with bows just to try and make use of their S4 AP- attacks in melee. Most deployment zones being 24", you're not charging without warptime, and just in shooting they kill roughly 1 guardsman or half a marine each assuming they have the 2+ to hit buff. You're not making their 17 points back in one turn unless you're up against Deathwatch on foot.

2) Daemon prince or if you bring one, a mauler/helbrute are the best targets in my book. Magnus mostly wounds stuff on 2s anyway, but he can take the extra attack. Daemon prince is the obvious target since he can just take the spell himself and it takes Talons up to wounding T7 on 3s.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.

Yeah, but if there on disks you can LoS them for the first turn and then move them up 12( 24 with warptime) unload and charge, more then likely making thier points back in a single turn.

Also am I the only person that struggles when having to choose what to cast diabolical strength on?

1) you can, but they're pretty tall, so LOS is a challenge, which you don't have to deal with if you deep strike something. After all, you can "just" LOS magnus so that he doesn't get killed by lascannons turn 1, so whats the big deal him not having deep strike? Given that you get exactly 1 warptime, and you've probably got better targets for it (magnus, some scarab occult, 40 tzaangors, a daemon prince, a maulerfiend/defiler/dreadnought/whatever) you're unlikely to be warptiming a little skyfire squad with bows just to try and make use of their S4 AP- attacks in melee. Most deployment zones being 24", you're not charging without warptime, and just in shooting they kill roughly 1 guardsman or half a marine each assuming they have the 2+ to hit buff. You're not making their 17 points back in one turn unless you're up against Deathwatch on foot.

2) Daemon prince or if you bring one, a mauler/helbrute are the best targets in my book. Magnus mostly wounds stuff on 2s anyway, but he can take the extra attack. Daemon prince is the obvious target since he can just take the spell himself and it takes Talons up to wounding T7 on 3s.

Can you? Can you just LOS Magnus?

I'm almost positive there doesn't exist a real piece of terrain that can hide magnus lol. You'd need a mountain.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.

Yeah, but if there on disks you can LoS them for the first turn and then move them up 12( 24 with warptime) unload and charge, more then likely making thier points back in a single turn.

Also am I the only person that struggles when having to choose what to cast diabolical strength on?

1) you can, but they're pretty tall, so LOS is a challenge, which you don't have to deal with if you deep strike something. After all, you can "just" LOS magnus so that he doesn't get killed by lascannons turn 1, so whats the big deal him not having deep strike? Given that you get exactly 1 warptime, and you've probably got better targets for it (magnus, some scarab occult, 40 tzaangors, a daemon prince, a maulerfiend/defiler/dreadnought/whatever) you're unlikely to be warptiming a little skyfire squad with bows just to try and make use of their S4 AP- attacks in melee. Most deployment zones being 24", you're not charging without warptime, and just in shooting they kill roughly 1 guardsman or half a marine each assuming they have the 2+ to hit buff. You're not making their 17 points back in one turn unless you're up against Deathwatch on foot.

2) Daemon prince or if you bring one, a mauler/helbrute are the best targets in my book. Magnus mostly wounds stuff on 2s anyway, but he can take the extra attack. Daemon prince is the obvious target since he can just take the spell himself and it takes Talons up to wounding T7 on 3s.

Can you? Can you just LOS Magnus?

No, you can't, that's my point. The bigger something is, the more difficult it is to "just" hide it out of LOS, and skyfires are about twice the height of a regular rubric marine. and who's the biggest meta gunline opponent? Guard. What does guard have? Mortars, usually. 17ppm models with T4, no armor save only an invuln who will most likely be the only infantry scale models you've got set up on the board turn 1 are going to be the first things targeting them.

I'm not saying they're bad by any means, but if you think enlightened are going to be any kind of meta defining unit or auto-include I'm going to have to disagree. If you're already taking a significant amount of daemon allies then they're definitely much more viable because you can dilute the available targets and have them not be under so much pressure early.

I think i'd be much more solid on them if the bows were like 5 points and I could take the autopistol/chainsword setup for free or something like that. 12-13 ppm tzaangors on discs would be great for tangling with other small MSU objective holder type squads.

Here is a Compilation of what we know so far. Info mostly provided by xxhikaru123

Tzeentch Firestorm- WC 9 roll 9 dice 6+ cause mortal wounds

Glamour of Tzeentch- WC 7 attacks against TS unit have -1 to hit

Doombolt- WC 9 1d3 mortal wounds and half movement next turn.

Temporal Manipulation- WC 6. 12" TS model. Heal D3 wound.

Weaver of Fates WC 6- A TZEENTCH unit within 18" gets +1 to their invulnerable save or a 5+ invuln if they do not have one. - Just great.

Boon of Mutation WC 7. Select friendly TS Character (not a daemon character) within 3". Roll 2D6 and consult the chart on the Boon of Tzeentch to see what effect this power has. Similiar to the old chaos boon table.

Yes, 6" Bubble all tzaangor unit.
Shaman has a once per game use elixir to reroll 1st failed psychic test for the model.

Ask the rest who have seen me post on my reliability, who cares about listening hard on a stream?
Mutalith are about 150.
Shaman is 80-90, i forgot.

Vast majority of units did not get any point changes. Some weapons went down abit, some characters went up, all within 5 pt difference.
You should not have any net gain or lose of points using any of the current units.

Skyfires are 2W. 2 S5 -1 1 dmg guns.
BS/WS3 5++
Shaman gives them +1 to hit.
51 points with greatbow FOR 3.

They have 3 options:
Chainsword & Bolt Pistol (?)
Great Bow
and a spear, i forgot exact stats but it does 2 dmg on charge.

Disc do 1 attack , S4 0 1
Sergeant does 3 A, each Tzaangor 2A.
So a unit of 3 does 10A.

Magnus went up by 30 points.

With Shaman aura, 2+ to hit (reroll 1s near a DP), auto wound on a 5+ (with shaman). 24" range, 36" inch effective (12" fly).

We know we have 21 strats in the book

Webway Infiltration- 1/3 CP pick 1/2 units they can deepstrike.

Warp Flame Gargoyles- 1 CP pick a TS vehicle (not helbrute or heldrake) and EVERY unit within 3" gets a die rolled for it 4+ does 1d3 mortal wounds

Cycle of Slaughter- 2CP use at the end of a fight phase 1 Tzaangor unit gets to fight again .

Fated mutation- 1CP Pick your girbblies table ability and reroll the attacks number.

Flesh Change- 1CP Change a character into a spawn, and place the spawn 6" away,

Calabastic Focus- Within 6" of 2 other psykers get a +2 to ONE psychic test.

15 strats left including CSM generic and Tzeentch we are missing .

Relics

Athenian Scrolls- Rolling doubles on Psychic tests prevent DTW rolls

Dark Matter Crystal- consume the crystal to send either the user or the

Warlord Traits

Reroll DTW tests

+1 to invul save

+1 spell known

The great bows seem sort of bad. I'm not that much of a good mathammerer, but -1 1dmg seems sort of underwhelming for an elite unit so small

EDIT: I didn't see they were 51pts for a unit of 3, I thought that was per model. That makes them way better

 Tiberius501 wrote:
The great bows seem sort of bad. I'm not that much of a good mathammerer, but -1 1dmg seems sort of underwhelming for an elite unit so small

EDIT: I didn't see they were 51pts for a unit of 3, I thought that was per model. That makes them way better

Lots of people math-hammering them right now, considering their range, assault, and "auto hit" functionality bypassing toughness, ap -1 is fine, and their mobility there is definitely some great utility there. May not be an auto-win unit but they seem to have some good uses and decent ROF with easily buffable shots before casting is taken into account.

Yeah auto wounding on a 4+ with Prescience and a Shaman is pretty unreal. Especially because they are hitting on a 2+ with a reroll (if they are near someone that gives it, like Ahriman). That's ~17 hits, half or more automatically wounding with -1AP for a full unit (IIRC they are Assault 2).

But as mentioned, they are the epitome of glass cannons... a brisk Nurgling fart will make them have 9 heart attacks simultaneously and disappear into another dimension.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
Yeah auto wounding on a 4+ with Prescience and a Shaman is pretty unreal. Especially because they are hitting on a 2+ with a reroll (if they are near someone that gives it, like Ahriman). That's ~17 hits, half or more automatically wounding with -1AP for a full unit (IIRC they are Assault 2).

But as mentioned, they are the epitome of glass cannons... a brisk Nurgling fart will make them have 9 heart attacks simultaneously and disappear into another dimension.

A full unit is 12 so 24 hits more then likely (2+ rerolling 1s) 12 auto wounds, and T6-9 (most tanks) an additional 1/3, so 16 wounds on most tanks, assuming you don't buff their to wound in some way.

I plan on taking a unit of 6. (As its what I own and can fit into my case! lol)

but frankly I think in 1500 or even 2k a unit of 6 is fine. super mobile, flying around the backfield nailing whatever is more opportune and pin-cushioning prime targets when the opportunity presents itself.

Added bonus; they are cheap for 102 for the 12 wounds, 5++, T4, not bad at all. for the ppm Its pretty good IMO. Even a small number can put in some decent work, and being (relatively speaking) cheap they can pull beyond their weight class.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

A full unit is 12 so 24 hits more then likely (2+ rerolling 1s) 12 auto wounds, and T6-9 (most tanks) an additional 1/3, so 16 wounds on most tanks, assuming you don't buff their to wound in some way.

Oh my bad, I thought I read the max unit was 9. Either way, I think they are worth it for the price. Especially against really tough things, bonus if they don't have strong armour saves.

Hey guys, quick question, are Tzaangors better with the chainswords/pistols or Tzaangor blades? I'd expect the blades but I'm usually wrong with these kinds of things. I guess pistols means they can still do something even when they aren't in melee but I thought the blades would be good as it seems like they're primarily a melee unit so -1AP seems good

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey guys, quick question, are Tzaangors better with the chainswords/pistols or Tzaangor blades? I'd expect the blades but I'm usually wrong with these kinds of things. I guess pistols means they can still do something even when they aren't in melee but I thought the blades would be good as it seems like they're primarily a melee unit so -1AP seems good

I prefer the blades, you lose out on a Strength 4 pistol shot but your melee attacks are -1 AP which makes a massive difference for pretty much anything you fight.

 anticitizen013 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

A full unit is 12 so 24 hits more then likely (2+ rerolling 1s) 12 auto wounds, and T6-9 (most tanks) an additional 1/3, so 16 wounds on most tanks, assuming you don't buff their to wound in some way.

Oh my bad, I thought I read the max unit was 9. Either way, I think they are worth it for the price. Especially against really tough things, bonus if they don't have strong armour saves.

No worries it happens. Totally agree if I had the money I might even buy some of them just because of how good they are going to be. Thier only downfall is they will probably need to be Deepstruck but the fact you can kill a LR in 1 turn with them means they will more then likely be worth every point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Hey guys, quick question, are Tzaangors better with the chainswords/pistols or Tzaangor blades? I'd expect the blades but I'm usually wrong with these kinds of things. I guess pistols means they can still do something even when they aren't in melee but I thought the blades would be good as it seems like they're primarily a melee unit so -1AP seems good

It really depends on what you want to do with them.

Getting rid of cheap chaff units with little to no armor save? Bolt pistol/ Chainswords are the way to go.

Want to use them as an assassin unit , or are dealing with models with decent armor? Tzaangor blades.

Just remember

Bolt Pistol/ Chain swords get 31 S4 AP- attacks per turn.

Tzaangor Blades get 21 S4 AP-1 attacks per turn.

remember however those chainsword attacks hit on 3+. The pistols hit on 4+

Tzaangors Have AUTOPISTOLS! Str 3, stop saying they have bolt pistols lol.

Yeah I think I'll go with the blades.

I hope the18(!) spells the army now has access to makes them good, especially as they can cast them an extra 6". Seems pretty sweet to me. Shame the rubrics didn't get any cheaper points wise but maybe they're worth 20ppm with all the extra stuff the codex brings?

Khalan wrote:
Tzaangors Have AUTOPISTOLS! Str 3, stop saying they have bolt pistols lol.

Shows how much I run them with auto pistols lol.

Tzaangors don't go up to units of 40, they don't have bonuses for being more than 20, and they don't have death to the false emperor.

I don't know why someone leaked those false informations.

 Haechi wrote:

Tzaangors don't go up to units of 40, they don't have bonuses for being more than 20, and they don't have death to the false emperor.

I don't know why someone leaked those false informations.

Thanks for that. Do you have any more information you can share?

Why are ther 10 warpflamers on the sprue if they can only have 4 in a unit? I'm assuming any of them were able to take the flamers before but that was nerfed with 8th? Anyone know if that's being changed in the codex? I mean, I know it would be an insanely expensive unit, but... imagine 10d6 autohits coming out of a rhino

EDIT: Wait... I am wrong. Not sure where I got that number from. Index says any can swap for a warpflamer. I am clearly a very smart person

 Sasori wrote:

 Haechi wrote:

Tzaangors don't go up to units of 40, they don't have bonuses for being more than 20, and they don't have death to the false emperor.

I don't know why someone leaked those false informations.

Thanks for that. Do you have any more information you can share?

I do but I'm not allowed to say anything... I can only deny stuff =/

I heard skyfires had damage d3 or 3 on their auto hitting bows. Can you deny this haechi?

I heard a rumor that Magnus is the only character in the codex who grants any kind of bonus to spellcasting, and that the invulnerable save auras multiple characters had have been re-written with to hit roll auras. Can you deny that?

Sneggy wrote:
I heard skyfires had damage d3 or 3 on their auto hitting bows. Can you deny this haechi?

The bows do 1 damage. Personally I find this unit very lackluster compared to what we all hoped for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
I heard a rumor that Magnus is the only character in the codex who grants any kind of bonus to spellcasting, and that the invulnerable save auras multiple characters had have been re-written with to hit roll auras. Can you deny that?

He is the only one who grants it, but not the only one who has some. The second part is true.

 Haechi wrote:

Tzaangors don't go up to units of 40, they don't have bonuses for being more than 20, and they don't have death to the false emperor.

I don't know why someone leaked those false informations.

Yeah in hindsight it's a bit strange that it was being reported by people that were watching the stream, but I think we all kinda figured at least parts of what you mention were false once the Shaman rules leaked with its +1 to-hit aura. All good in the end, we get that +1 to-hit on Tzaangors in some way at least!

Thank you for the information
A little bee told me they think Inferno Boltguns and Inferno Combi-Bolters dropped in points, is that false? Cheers!

Hmmm....so Exalteds (and Ahriman) are now essentially Sorcerer Lords, as they should be. Nice! Means Daemon Princes aren't quite as auto-take as before.

Hey Haechi, just to confirm, in the compiled rumours above it says 3 Skyfires with greatbows are 51pts for the unit. Is that false? thanks