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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, no.
You keep 1 point to give your rubric block VotLW


Anyway, uncomfiermed rumors about aura changes are the real reason why magnus just became a monster unlike any other.

Spoiler:

Magnus the Red:
Primarch of the TS (re-roll 1s to hit aura, re-roll 1s for Psychic Tests aura)

Ahriman:
+1 Invul, so 3++ now (via fixed warlord trait)
Re-roll 1s to hit for TS aura

Lol okay fine. Better hope you don't perils though

This is where you guys are lacking imagination-TACTICAL PERILS!
You use perils AS A WEAPON.
Got my dudes stuck in CC? I smite you. perils? oh well, guess we both blow up.

Love the Spawn strategems. This is exactly what I wanted for CSM or Death Guard. I've been replacing Spawn from my army with Plague Drones.

Ive also been trying to find a way to fit my Beastmen models into a Chaos list, so... Looks like I've been ensnared into Tzeentch after all...

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Love the Spawn strategems. This is exactly what I wanted for CSM or Death Guard. I've been replacing Spawn from my army with Plague Drones.

Ive also been trying to find a way to fit my Beastmen models into a Chaos list, so... Looks like I've been ensnared into Tzeentch after all...

Just as planned.... Couldn't resist lol.

I love the spawn stratagem as well, that's just such a neat idea, reminds me of the old "greater deamons pop out of a charecters body to bring it to the battlefield" rules.

Now I have a good purpose for my custom centaur / space marine spawn models.

Ahriman21 wrote:
Do you not play with CP re-rolls? Quite the oddity. I myself save the re-roll per phase for just that occasion! rarely ever do I perils.

We have an innate re-roll mechanic in the army through tzeentch daemons, and also have Magnus, and then probably some form of Strategem. got a Crap-ton we haven't seen yet.

Please pay attention.

 Haechi wrote:
-20 Rubric Marines in range for rapid fire, casting prescience on themselves... No need for flamers.

-40 Tzaangors declaring charges on everything, making it with their +1, and then attacking a second time.

-Teleporting Rubrics out of combat without counting as having disangaged, or being able to clutch cap an objective late game for the win with Dark Crystal.

I'm sold already. I don't care about Magnus being good or bed, this codex is going to be awesome with or without him.

This is what were talking about 800 points already spent, you have 1 HQ 2 Troops which gets you 3 CP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, no.
You keep 1 point to give your rubric block VotLW


Anyway, uncomfiermed rumors about aura changes are the real reason why magnus just became a monster unlike any other.

Spoiler:

Magnus the Red:
Primarch of the TS (re-roll 1s to hit aura, re-roll 1s for Psychic Tests aura)

Ahriman:
+1 Invul, so 3++ now (via fixed warlord trait)
Re-roll 1s to hit for TS aura

Lol okay fine. Better hope you don't perils though

This is where you guys are lacking imagination-TACTICAL PERILS!
You use perils AS A WEAPON.
Got my dudes stuck in CC? I smite you. perils? oh well, guess we both blow up.

Which would be fine if you could do it on demand but we can't (as of now). Adding that would also probably cause a fairly large points bump, since your getting a mortal wound bomb.

I pay plenty of attention to competent players.

Not someone that whines about stuff that doesn't even "need" to be whined about.

Ahriman21 wrote:
I pay plenty of attention to competent players.

Not someone that whines about stuff that doesn't even "need" to be whined about.

Yeah, saying I don't like something is not whining. I'm complaining.

a video that explains the difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csPPqdbcVwM

No; at this point you've crossed the threshold into whining.

Complaint has a breaking point where it becomes whining.

You are well past that.

Take your bickering to private messages. We already had one thread almost get locked because of this exact same thing.

Talk about tactics, or not at all. Block each other, I don't care. Just stop ruining it for the rest of us who actually want to have a discussion.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
Take your bickering to private messages. We already had one thread almost get locked because of this exact same thing.

Talk about tactics, or not at all. Block each other, I don't care. Just stop ruining it for the rest of us who actually want to have a discussion.

Fine from what we know what would you run?

Well one thing that could be useful is a large blob of Rubric Marines. Drop 20 of them within Rapid Fire range, cast Prescience and use VotLW, for 2+ to hit with an increased chance to wound. With a DP or Magnus near them for the reroll, you're pretty much going to get 40 hits (not including special weapons). Wounding on 4+s against T7 means 20 wounds at -2AP is going to ruin somethings day. Downside being, of course, is that they are very costly. Thankfully, splitting your fire can prevent overkill and thus manage those points a bit better. If they get caught in melee, use the Crystal to peace out.

Another thing you could do is Webway a massive blob of Tzaangors, Warptime them (assuming they keep the Heretic Astartes keyword) to get your charge in and then fight a second time for 2 more CP. Simple but effective. Plus you can tie up a lot of units with a massive blob depending on enemy deployment (and how you drop them).

That is of course, looking at things in a vacuum. Quite frankly I doubt I would take either of those methods. I'm thinking my army would make use of the Skyfires and buffing them up with Prescience and a Shaman for 4+ auto wounds. In addition, my army contains 2x Decimators with Soulburner Petards. They are outrageously awesome at dealing copious amounts of mortal wounds and are still very resilient. Each one, on average, does about 8MW a turn at 24" which in pairs just starts deleting units if they aren't focused down (they don't degrade). They start making their points back really fast if left unmolested. Another good thing about having those units is that they are very dangerous and will oft draw fire away from a certain primarch who did nothing wrong, allowing him to melt faces.

I am no master strategist, but one thing I try to do is think about the actual situations things will be in (and how I can put them in the ideal ones). Mathhammer is all well and good and can help decide what definitely not to do, like shoot autopistols at a Land Raider, but there's more to it than just numbers. Gotta think outside the pyramid

I think with this new codex, we are going to have a massive amount of synergy between types of units, be it marines, Tzaangors, and Daemons. I'm really excited to learn more.

Oh and Magnus should definitely take Temporal Manipulation. Regenerating wounds on a WC6? That's awesome!

I never liked wound regeneration much in this game.
You are usually either not needing it, or too far down it doesn't matter.


Now I need to figure out a use for the darn spawn stratagem. is it just me, or even a last-wound sorcerer is STILL better than a spawn and there is no real reason to ever use the flesh-change?
Fated mutation can be useful if you got a large pack of spawn running around , but flesh change is just derp. I'd probably not even use it if it was 0CP

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Haechi wrote:
-20 Rubric Marines in range for rapid fire, casting prescience on themselves... No need for flamers.

-40 Tzaangors declaring charges on everything, making it with their +1, and then attacking a second time.

-Teleporting Rubrics out of combat without counting as having disangaged, or being able to clutch cap an objective late game for the win with Dark Crystal.

I'm sold already. I don't care about Magnus being good or bad, this codex is going to be awesome with or without him.

Gonna spend all your CP before the game starts?

How is 3 CP all of them?

Nah, you're about right. If you changed a Chaos Sorcerer to a Chaos Spawn, you'd be going from a 3+ to a 5+ save, going to 4 wounds (so gaining 3 back if you were on your last one), and dropping from a 3+ to 4+ WS. The benefit to the stratagem is that it can be used at the start of any phase, even your opponents. It may not be a good choice in the scenario described, but I can see a option that you charge in a sorcerer in terminator armor, eat the overwatch, charge another melee unit in now, then at the start of the fight phase you morph that sorcerer into a chaos spawn, and now you have a chaos spawn in melee, able to dish a little damage. Sadly, even then, it's not something I would make large plans around.

The Flesh-Change stratagem does bring two major questions to mind: Since the character is slain, if they have any active buffs on them (Prescience, invuln save, etc.) is that retained on the newly created Chaos Spawn? And doe sthe Chaos Spawn count as having charged for purposes of attack priority if the former character charged before the stratagem was used? My personal thoughts are 1) No, as the character was slain; 2) No, for the same reason. However, if we're getting our own version of a Chaos Spawn, or if another army wide bonus buffs them, those answers could change.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I never liked wound regeneration much in this game.
You are usually either not needing it, or too far down it doesn't matter.


Now I need to figure out a use for the darn spawn stratagem. is it just me, or even a last-wound sorcerer is STILL better than a spawn and there is no real reason to ever use the flesh-change?
Fated mutation can be useful if you got a large pack of spawn running around , but flesh change is just derp. I'd probably not even use it if it was 0CP

Well, it's definitely a rare use kind of thing, but I can think of two things :

First, remember you can use it at the beginning of any phase, not just your turn, so I'm thinking pop it at the beginning of the shooting or melee phase, when you know your opponent has the opportunity to either one shot or finish a wounded character.

Second, if he has the assassinate or witch hunter card this turn, straight out deny him that once you've seen which character he's planning to go after.

It's gimmicky, but it could be fun =]

Fluffwise the dude transforms-but rulewise its very obviously that you create a new spawn and discard the character.

I honestly fail to find any scenario where this trade is worthwhile.

Fringe uses but it has them, the key is that it is spawned within 6" of the character and without any restriction on the distance to the enemy. This means that even flyers can be stopped from shooting. You got a fireraptor in your lines ready to fire? Sacrifice a char and put a spawn in CC with it at the start of the shooting phase, now it cannot fire.

Don't want an enemy to make an important charge? Pop a char and put them in melee or put the spawn in the charge path.

Or again, something important is in smite danger? Put a spawn in front of it.


There are many interesting uses, no one is going to win you the game (maybe the first one), but it's a nice tool.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tuluth wrote:
Nah, you're about right. If you changed a Chaos Sorcerer to a Chaos Spawn, you'd be going from a 3+ to a 5+ save, going to 4 wounds (so gaining 3 back if you were on your last one), and dropping from a 3+ to 4+ WS. The benefit to the stratagem is that it can be used at the start of any phase, even your opponents. It may not be a good choice in the scenario described, but I can see a option that you charge in a sorcerer in terminator armor, eat the overwatch, charge another melee unit in now, then at the start of the fight phase you morph that sorcerer into a chaos spawn, and now you have a chaos spawn in melee, able to dish a little damage. Sadly, even then, it's not something I would make large plans around.

The Flesh-Change stratagem does bring two major questions to mind: Since the character is slain, if they have any active buffs on them (Prescience, invuln save, etc.) is that retained on the newly created Chaos Spawn? And doe sthe Chaos Spawn count as having charged for purposes of attack priority if the former character charged before the stratagem was used? My personal thoughts are 1) No, as the character was slain; 2) No, for the same reason. However, if we're getting our own version of a Chaos Spawn, or if another army wide bonus buffs them, those answers could change.

Let's see if we cannot use Tzangoor Shamans for this.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
Well one thing that could be useful is a large blob of Rubric Marines. Drop 20 of them within Rapid Fire range, cast Prescience and use VotLW, for 2+ to hit with an increased chance to wound. With a DP or Magnus near them for the reroll, you're pretty much going to get 40 hits (not including special weapons). Wounding on 4+s against T7 means 20 wounds at -2AP is going to ruin somethings day. Downside being, of course, is that they are very costly. Thankfully, splitting your fire can prevent overkill and thus manage those points a bit better. If they get caught in melee, use the Crystal to peace out.

Yeah thats good, but a shaman and some skyfires can get the same effect, and since they have fly you dont need to use the relic either. Plus they are about 50 points cheaper.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
Another thing you could do is Webway a massive blob of Tzaangors, Warptime them (assuming they keep the Heretic Astartes keyword) to get your charge in and then fight a second time for 2 more CP. Simple but effective. Plus you can tie up a lot of units with a massive blob depending on enemy deployment (and how you drop them).

Im sure they will keep the keyword no reason not to. But that is a lot of CP to blow on turn 1.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
That is of course, looking at things in a vacuum. Quite frankly I doubt I would take either of those methods. I'm thinking my army would make use of the Skyfires and buffing them up with Prescience and a Shaman for 4+ auto wounds. In addition, my army contains 2x Decimators with Soulburner Petards. They are outrageously awesome at dealing copious amounts of mortal wounds and are still very resilient. Each one, on average, does about 8MW a turn at 24" which in pairs just starts deleting units if they aren't focused down (they don't degrade). They start making their points back really fast if left unmolested. Another good thing about having those units is that they are very dangerous and will oft draw fire away from a certain primarch who did nothing wrong, allowing him to melt faces.

LoL well yes lots of people like to run magnus but not my cup of tea, dont like large models takes away from the tactics aspect. Keep in mind Magnus is a glass cannon most of his points cost comes from damage output, if you can can 2 turn out of magnus before he dies, you can take out 1k in points easy.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
I am no master strategist, but one thing I try to do is think about the actual situations things will be in (and how I can put them in the ideal ones). Mathhammer is all well and good and can help decide what definitely not to do, like shoot autopistols at a Land Raider, but there's more to it than just numbers. Gotta think outside the pyramid

It's all about drawing your enemy in and making them think they will win. Can't tell you how many times I have had enemies charge a units of Rubrics kill 2-3 and end thier turn with a satisfied look on thier face only to have me dump 3-4 smites + 1-2 smite lights into the enemy and wipe the whole squad, then warptime the squad up so its still in range for flamer/rapidfire.

When it comes to tactics all you have to do is know how to make a thing its opposite, after that its all about when to do it.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
I think with this new codex, we are going to have a massive amount of synergy between types of units, be it marines, Tzaangors, and Daemons. I'm really excited to learn more.

I hope so I have never minded running Daemons with my TS oddly enough.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
Oh and Magnus should definitely take Temporal Manipulation. Regenerating wounds on a WC6? That's awesome!

Well yes problem is Magnus has the tendency to die in one turn. Which makes healing him hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I never liked wound regeneration much in this game.
You are usually either not needing it, or too far down it doesn't matter.


Now I need to figure out a use for the darn spawn stratagem. is it just me, or even a last-wound sorcerer is STILL better than a spawn and there is no real reason to ever use the flesh-change?
Fated mutation can be useful if you got a large pack of spawn running around , but flesh change is just derp. I'd probably not even use it if it was 0CP

1.) +1 inch movement can be the difference of having an okay chance and an almoat guarnteed chance to get some where.

2.) HQ unit is in CC and 1 W remaining you can wait till thier Fight phase, then do it now hes got 4 T5 wounds rather then 1 T4.

3.) Hopping over an enemy line if need be( remember it allows you to place it withing 6" of the model) which can get you into CC with something that wants to shoot.

Im sure there are other things as well.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


3.) Hopping over an enemy line if need be( remember it allows you to place it withing 6" of the model) which can get you into CC with something that wants to shoot.

That one is actually brilliant. Charge a wall of conscripts, then hara-kiri your character, and pop the Spawn 6" behind the line, locking in CC a Manticore or a Lascannon team or whatever. Love it.

 Haechi wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


3.) Hopping over an enemy line if need be( remember it allows you to place it withing 6" of the model) which can get you into CC with something that wants to shoot.

That one is actually brilliant. Charge a wall of conscripts, then hara-kiri your character, and pop the Spawn 6" behind the line, locking in CC a Manticore or a Lascannon team or whatever. Love it.

Just be sure you do it in thier shooting phase to make it worth while.

I have always been a fan of TS aesthetic and lore, although since none plays them in my meta I have no clue where about their crunch. With the release of the codex I have a couple of questions:

1.My current army is Grey Knights, since they seem to be both psyker heavy armies, is their gameplay identical?

2. A friend of mine thinking about starting Custodes proposed to me to split the Burning of Prospero box, me keeping Marine stuff and he the Custodes and Sisters. Do you think the things on that box are of any use to start a TS army? I can use Ahriman as a sorceror but dunno if TS field "normal" chaos marines and Tartaros Termis(fluff wise it doesn't make sense I know), tbh I would rather no use them as classic TS Rubric marine and Termis as I like the aesthetic of the proper ones and would like to field them eventually

 GuardStrider wrote:
I have always been a fan of TS aesthetic and lore, although since none plays them in my meta I have no clue where about their crunch. With the release of the codex I have a couple of questions:

1.My current army is Grey Knights, since they seem to be both psyker heavy armies, is their gameplay identical?

2. A friend of mine thinking about starting Custodes proposed to me to split the Burning of Prospero box, me keeping Marine stuff and he the Custodes and Sisters. Do you think the things on that box are of any use to start a TS army? I can use Ahriman as a sorceror but dunno if TS field "normal" chaos marines and Tartaros Termis(fluff wise it doesn't make sense I know), tbh I would rather no use them as classic TS Rubric marine and Termis as I like the aesthetic of the proper ones and would like to field them eventually

1.) Um no.

2.) You can use most of it SOT I beleive are Tartaros Pattern.

For right now I would say wait for the codex to drop playtest with some proxies first then go from there. TS have a wide variety of synergies to pull from. CSM and Daemons, to start you need to figure out what you want on the table before you start purchasing stuff.

The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.

the_scotsman wrote:
The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.

This is why I shall be using both!

Find a nice medium for list building with the new dex, we should have enough threat saturation on the table where its not to big of a deal. Hopefully.

So, Skyfires don't do 3 damage anymore?

 GuardStrider wrote:
I have always been a fan of TS aesthetic and lore, although since none plays them in my meta I have no clue where about their crunch. With the release of the codex I have a couple of questions:

1.My current army is Grey Knights, since they seem to be both psyker heavy armies, is their gameplay identical?

2. A friend of mine thinking about starting Custodes proposed to me to split the Burning of Prospero box, me keeping Marine stuff and he the Custodes and Sisters. Do you think the things on that box are of any use to start a TS army? I can use Ahriman as a sorceror but dunno if TS field "normal" chaos marines and Tartaros Termis(fluff wise it doesn't make sense I know), tbh I would rather no use them as classic TS Rubric marine and Termis as I like the aesthetic of the proper ones and would like to field them eventually

1-not really. While Knights are more of an assault force with added psyker damage, the sons are more shooty with screens of low value units and using psykers mostly for tactical effects rather than pure damage output.


2-that's mostly what I did. Ahriman being ahriman, the marines being rubrics. You'll need some sword bits for the terminators to make them into scarab occult though, and a staff for the scarab sorcerer. You might also want some bits for turning marines into proper aspiring sorcerers, or heavy bits for making true sorcerers. Also forgeworld rotor cannons make perfect soulreaper cannons.

the_scotsman wrote:
The skyfires not "having to" deep strike is a liability, actually, as you point out regarding magnus: they tend to die in one turn. Usually the first one, if you fail the roll to go first. Skyfires cause similar damage to VOTLW'ing rubrics without spending CP, it's true (it about evens out between the auto-wounds from the skyfires causing a good deal more wounds up front and the extra AP that the rubrics get causing less saves) but they're more risky as you have to put them on the board to get shot at with anti infantry dakka turn 1.

Yeah, but if there on disks you can LoS them for the first turn and then move them up 12( 24 with warptime) unload and charge, more then likely making thier points back in a single turn.

Also am I the only person that struggles when having to choose what to cast diabolical strength on?

Yes, you are.
It's a model buff, not a unit buff. Not many good targets to begin with, just Magnus and daemon Prince. MAYBE ahriman.

With Magnus wounding everything in the game on 2's anyways I don't think he's a great target. You pretty much always want to put it on a daemon prince, IMO.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, you are.
It's a model buff, not a unit buff. Not many good targets to begin with, just Magnus and daemon Prince. MAYBE ahriman.

Hellbrute with a power scorge and a Helbrute fist

Maulerfiend with Lasher Tendrals

Defiler with a Scourge

Considering I actually use scorge helbrutes, its been rather silly of me to forget they make a valid target XD