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But it's worse in almost every way. And the range isn't that big a deal with combat shooting. It doesn't even have fleshbane anymore. Why would you make that!? ((At least I didn't model anything with neuro...))

So, basically deciding between high double strength or double range? While its far from an even swap, its a better deal that a lot of weapon "options" in the game afaik.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Aren73 wrote:
I've submitted feedback for the neuro disruptor by email to the faq team, hopefully something can be done about it. Who knows, I'd like to see how GW handle feedback now, maybe there's some hope they'll change it?

I don't have my book yet, what is wrong with it?

Other than the obvious fact that a braindead chimp could look at

9 points: Pistol 6", S8, AP-4, D6 damage, within half-range roll 2 take highest for damage
10 points: Pistol 12", S4, AP-3, D3 damage, damage is 1 vs vehicles

and realize "wait, something is very silly here..."

That seems pretty awesome to me. S8-4 D6 for 9 points?! That's frikken awesome! Why the hate for it?

 Togusa wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Aren73 wrote:
I've submitted feedback for the neuro disruptor by email to the faq team, hopefully something can be done about it. Who knows, I'd like to see how GW handle feedback now, maybe there's some hope they'll change it?

I don't have my book yet, what is wrong with it?

Other than the obvious fact that a braindead chimp could look at

9 points: Pistol 6", S8, AP-4, D6 damage, within half-range roll 2 take highest for damage
10 points: Pistol 12", S4, AP-3, D3 damage, damage is 1 vs vehicles

and realize "wait, something is very silly here..."

That seems pretty awesome to me. S8-4 D6 for 9 points?! That's frikken awesome! Why the hate for it?

That's the fusion pistol, I don't think anyone has an issue with it. The problem is the 10 point "upgrade" to the Neuro Disruptor.

The neuro disruptor is worse in every single possible way, except for the range. Which for a mobile army such as the harlies means not much. It's even more expensive.


Honestly, they'd just have to double the shots it does and it would be fine, pistol 2 and not pistol 1 and it would be perfect, a viable choice, worth the 10 pts, no problems. Maybe still underperforming but definitely something to consider.

Aren73 wrote:
The neuro disruptor is worse in every single possible way, except for the range. Which for a mobile army such as the harlies means not much. It's even more expensive.


Honestly, they'd just have to double the shots it does and it would be fine, pistol 2 and not pistol 1 and it would be perfect, a viable choice, worth the 10 pts, no problems. Maybe still underperforming but definitely something to consider.

They'd have to drop it to 5pts as well to be viable.

At 5 points with double shots it would be VERY good. Incremental changes, let's get double shots first, better to get that then ask for too much and get nothing.

Maybe D3 shots, the neuro disrupter for corsairs was a flame template weapon...

d3 or 2 ...whichever. Point is it really needs a boost, no one would waste points on neuro disruptors, when fusion pistols exist, the only reason you'd use disruptors is when you're forced to due to WYSWIG rules and then you're using them when you really don't want to.

Especially that they could fill a niche of dealing good damage to hordes. Which we can struggle with.

Or switch it to flamer style d3 or d6 auto hits.... That would be handy!

 Imateria wrote:

Aren73 wrote:
The neuro disruptor is worse in every single possible way, except for the range. Which for a mobile army such as the harlies means not much. It's even more expensive.


Honestly, they'd just have to double the shots it does and it would be fine, pistol 2 and not pistol 1 and it would be perfect, a viable choice, worth the 10 pts, no problems. Maybe still underperforming but definitely something to consider.

They'd have to drop it to 5pts as well to be viable.

And this is why most of you shouldn't be Rules writers.

It's gotta be one or the other.

Neuro disruptor ought to be a 2d6 roll vs leadership, damage stat equal to the difference.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Neuro disruptor ought to be a 2d6 roll vs leadership, damage stat equal to the difference.

Harlequins can spam the weapon, and with allies have the ability to easily stack many negative Ld bubbles. It would way too strong if the difference in Ld was used as damage.

I would like a "wound non-vehicles on 2s", because it would be closer to the fluff (the weapon attacks your mind, so doesn't care about how strong your body is), and to the previous incarnation. Additionally, it would give a way to deal with high T, without relying on fusion pistols.
Harlies could therefore use Haywires against tanks, neuro-disruptors against monsters, and not have to spam fusions everywhere to have the ability to deal with tough things.

More shots would also work.

fresus wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Neuro disruptor ought to be a 2d6 roll vs leadership, damage stat equal to the difference.

Harlequins can spam the weapon, and with allies have the ability to easily stack many negative Ld bubbles. It would way too strong if the difference in Ld was used as damage.

I would like a "wound non-vehicles on 2s", because it would be closer to the fluff (the weapon attacks your mind, so doesn't care about how strong your body is), and to the previous incarnation. Additionally, it would give a way to deal with high T, without relying on fusion pistols.
Harlies could therefore use Haywires against tanks, neuro-disruptors against monsters, and not have to spam fusions everywhere to have the ability to deal with tough things.

More shots would also work.

What if it stayed as it is, but changed the damage type to D3 mortal wounds vs. non-vehicles? Would that be far to strong, or far too weak?

The big issue is that harlies have so few weapon options compared to other races so can't afford to have something non functional. There is a reason fusion is spammed.....there is nothing else.
It has to be a reasonable option than fusion for taking on non vehicles. Give it the haywire rule but for non vehicles. D3 shots, S4, -3AP, 1 damage. On a 4+ for each hit, mortal wound. 6 is D3 mortal wounds.

I quite like the above suggestion, non vehicle haywire.

I do also think a leadership thing would be thematic and very appropriate for the weapon, sort of a roll 2d6 against Ld, if you pass does 1 mortal wound? 1 or 2, any higher is brutal, even 2 is pretty disgusting, as with all the ld debuffs we can stack it could be strong.

Question is, what does the weapon actually need to do? Fusion is for armour, any vehicles and monsters and stupidly armoured enemies like terminators.

So what is a neuro disruptor used for? Hordes? Space Marine Equivalents? Invun protected dudes? We either define a niche for it and then work out a weapon that fits that niche, or we modify the current profile slightly to make it worth the points. I think increasing the number of shots could well make it useful against eg Primaris and other tough infantry units.

Currently, 5 fusion does 2.7 wounds, if you don't roll ones you kill 2 or 3 primaris.

5 Neuro does 1.4 wounds, with d3 damage. So about half as useful.

If we double the shots, the neuro disruptor will do roughly the same amount of wounds/damage as fusion, slightly less as the d3 and not d6 damage.

It would be just slightly better due to double range. Would be definitely better with one more point of strength.


This is all against primaris and just mathhammer, to show how big the gap is between the two. Also shows that my earlier suggestion of double the shots doesn't quite make it worth it.

It's quite bad that you can double the shots of a weapon option and it's STILL not quite worth it, still a subpar choice.

Oh and why Primaris? Because they are sort of what the niche of the disruptor is now, it has low strength but good AP and d3 damage, it's meant for heavily armoured multi wound infantry.


TLDR: Even against the optimal target, with DOUBLE the shots, the neuro disruptor just barely edges out over the fusion pistol and only because it has more range as it would still do slightly less damage.

In terms of roles, Haywire should be the best option against vehicles, and pretty bad against the rest. Neuros should be the best one against heavy infantry, and very bad against vehicles. Finally, fusions should work against both, but not be quite as efficient.
But at this point the ship has sailed, we won't see a major rework of the weapons any time soon. We can only hope for a small change to neuro-disruptors. So, while the "anti-infantry haywire" idea is pretty cool, I don't think we can realistically hope for such a major change in the upcoming FAQ.

That's true, they won't write a new profile. But maybe they'll at least double the shots? It's not quite enough but it is a start?

 bullyboy wrote:
The big issue is that harlies have so few weapon options compared to other races so can't afford to have something non functional. There is a reason fusion is spammed.....there is nothing else.
It has to be a reasonable option than fusion for taking on non vehicles. Give it the haywire rule but for non vehicles. D3 shots, S4, -3AP, 1 damage. On a 4+ for each hit, mortal wound. 6 is D3 mortal wounds.

Yep. Two of the weapons are massive wastes to put on such expensive models, and the three melee upgrades are so similar in 8th that one is just always going to mathematically be "best, take on everyone"

I seriously don't understand why the embrace isn't like s4 ap-1 in combat but doing mortal wounds on the charge. It specifically states in the book that moments before the harlequin charges into combat the embrace fires a cloud of wire to cut the opponent up.

If that doesn't sound like a wounds on the charge weapon I'm not sure what does.

Then again GW have made some comically confusing decisions for weapons and abilities in books. Harlequins could have had really unique weapons but they're all extremely similar. The C'tan shards could have been really unique and fun abilities, they are really similar to each other too.

I don't know, maybe it's because they had to rush them our or something

They did rush the index, but had plenty of time for the codex. However, in most codex GW didn't change many profiles when going from index to codex. It's mostly point changes, with chapter rules, stratagems, and relics.
I suppose the person who wrote the index did a bad job and we got stuck with it.
It's pretty weird as some units got a HoW-equivalent (Reavers caltrops, penitent engine etc.), which could have worked for the embrace. Many weapons got MW on hit/wound rolls (roughly what the caress did in 7th), and some weapons have a "can only make a single attack with this weapon" ability, so a kiss could have had two profiles with one of the two having such a restriction. Basically, the index contain rules that are similar to what the Harlie weapons did in 7th, and there was therefore no reason not to include them in the index.
A lot of the fluff we have in the current codex is basically from the 7th ed. codex, which is why the embrace description really fits what it used to do, and doesn't work at all now.