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So far for me I'm not sure, the prices seem way steep, 68 pounds for 4 roughly 28mm-human sized mechs, 2 tiny matchbox sized cars, 4 bases of troops and 2 jetbike-sized flyers, too expensive no matter how nice they look.

MetalOxide wrote:So far for me I'm not sure, the prices seem way steep, 68 pounds for 4 roughly 28mm-human sized mechs, 2 tiny matchbox sized cars, 4 bases of troops and 2 jetbike-sized flyers, too expensive no matter how nice they look.

And that is everything you need to play the game starting, includes command cards, and these things look fething AMAZING!

NOW tell me what would you pay for Warhammer or 40k for the same basic abilities (i.e. can play an actual game 1000+ points)

So all in all PHR gets just about the least amount of models BUT they are the strongest armor wise so as I have said before all these deals seem to be based on the value of a points system so that everything is balanced if people buy multiple sets so that they can demo them.

Lysenis wrote:

MetalOxide wrote:So far for me I'm not sure, the prices seem way steep, 68 pounds for 4 roughly 28mm-human sized mechs, 2 tiny matchbox sized cars, 4 bases of troops and 2 jetbike-sized flyers, too expensive no matter how nice they look.

And that is everything you need to play the game starting, includes command cards, and these things look fething AMAZING!

NOW tell me what would you pay for Warhammer or 40k for the same basic abilities (i.e. can play an actual game 1000+ points)

So all in all PHR gets just about the least amount of models BUT they are the strongest armor wise so as I have said before all these deals seem to be based on the value of a points system so that everything is balanced if people buy multiple sets so that they can demo them.

Aaah, now that makes all the difference, if all I need to play the game is in those deals then its definitley worth buying.

Also the rulebook has more pages than the space marine codex

I think the large army is more indicative of a standard sized game, but you can definitely play with the starter.

MetalOxide wrote:So far for me I'm not sure, the prices seem way steep, 68 pounds for 4 roughly 28mm-human sized mechs, 2 tiny matchbox sized cars, 4 bases of troops and 2 jetbike-sized flyers, too expensive no matter how nice they look.

You get 2 space marine sized resin phr walkers for between £10.50-£12.
compared to 1 finecast marine at between £9.50 and £15 complete with miscasts and holes, typically £11

thats 2 for the price of 1.
not to mention rule book at £15 vs GW at £35+ and a codex.

i like 40k but GW are pricing new comers out of the market. newbies need to look to malifaux, infinity, warmachine at first then move onto medium cost games like dropzone, then expensive games like 40k or the crazy cost of warhammer fantasy

I think dave at dropzone has shown what 1 guy can do and put gw to shame. there prices are a joke.

I think dave at dropzone has shown what 1 guy can do and put gw to shame. there prices are a joke.

Haha Do you mind if I use this as my sig?

MetalOxide wrote:So far for me I'm not sure, the prices seem way steep, 68 pounds for 4 roughly 28mm-human sized mechs, 2 tiny matchbox sized cars, 4 bases of troops and 2 jetbike-sized flyers, too expensive no matter how nice they look.

So you've chosen the elite army to quote, the PHR! oh and its 3 jetbike-sized flyers not 2.
Have a look at the other 3 factions, theres a bit more in the starter set than the PHR one.
The starter armies have been balanced out so that you can start playing someone else straight out the box.

Expensive or not, i think it looks to be an awsome game. I've already put my order in for the rule book and a starter set and will be buying more once i get a few games in.

fox40 wrote:
I think dave at dropzone has shown what 1 guy can do and put gw to shame. there prices are a joke.

Not to disparage the DZC creator or anything; his effort has been monumental. But do we really need to list the amount of product GW has released in the past 24 months?

Just saying.

I think the pricing is skewing towards high simply based on scale. It's a bit more expensive than the comparable Spartan Games products and is smaller. Personally, I think it would behoove the makers of new games to release their rules for free to drive further sales of their miniatures. Despite how "nice" the minis are, it's hard to justify buying it at roughly $200 without even seeing a game play example.

cincydooley wrote:

fox40 wrote:
I think dave at dropzone has shown what 1 guy can do and put gw to shame. there prices are a joke.

Not to disparage the DZC creator or anything; his effort has been monumental. But do we really need to list the amount of product GW has released in the past 24 months?

Just saying.

I think the pricing is skewing towards high simply based on scale. It's a bit more expensive than the comparable Spartan Games products and is smaller. Personally, I think it would behoove the makers of new games to release their rules for free to drive further sales of their miniatures. Despite how "nice" the minis are, it's hard to justify buying it at roughly $200 without even seeing a game play example.

Jesus...the guy released his game yesterday, I'm sure he's going to give us batreps as soon as he possibly can. DZC looks to be pretty much a solo project so we might be lenient and excuse him for not catering us like a major company would, eh? And as I've said before...buy the rules first and hold off buying minis until you know what the game is like...not difficult to do.

cincydooley wrote:

fox40 wrote:
I think dave at dropzone has shown what 1 guy can do and put gw to shame. there prices are a joke.

Not to disparage the DZC creator or anything; his effort has been monumental. But do we really need to list the amount of product GW has released in the past 24 months?

Just saying.

I think the pricing is skewing towards high simply based on scale. It's a bit more expensive than the comparable Spartan Games products and is smaller. Personally, I think it would behoove the makers of new games to release their rules for free to drive further sales of their miniatures. Despite how "nice" the minis are, it's hard to justify buying it at roughly $200 without even seeing a game play example.

When i talk about gw im refering to the price and quality of finecast. A company there size manages to choose an inferior quality product to dzc while saying its cheaper than metal but charges more and then brings out products to sell you that fixes there poor quality. Thats a double slap in the face.

Kaputt wrote:Jesus...the guy released his game yesterday, I'm sure he's going to give us batreps as soon as he possibly can. DZC looks to be pretty much a solo project so we might be lenient and excuse him for not catering us like a major company would, eh? And as I've said before...buy the rules first and hold off buying minis until you know what the game is like...not difficult to do.

That part made me laugh.

I know of NO major company that caters to ANYONE.

Either way, I like what I see and don't fear what I can't see/don't know with DZC.

I hope this company makes millions and produces hundreds of more minis as good or better than what we've seen so far.

fox40 wrote:

When i talk about gw im refering to the price and quality of finecast. A company there size manages to choose an inferior quality product to dzc while saying its cheaper than metal but charges more and then brings out products to sell you that fixes there poor quality. Thats a double slap in the face.

For every poorly cast Finecast model you've seen on the interwebz I have 2 or three great looking Finecast models I can show you that I didn't chose to post online. But this thread isn't the place to do it.

Presumably you've been hands on with the DZC resin then, yes?

Again, the amount of work this gentleman from DZC has done is astonishing and commendable, but comparing it to GW is silly.

And I'll stick to the notion that he needs to get the rules or playthrough video out before July 9. It'll help move the product. I dont think it's unreasonable to want to see SOMETHING of the rules (which, if they're already written and in PDF format, should be EASY to get online) before committing to $200 bucks of purchase, which based on what we've read, is about the "average" size you'll need to play a game. I agree that $200 is great if that's all you need to play the game. More power to it. But lets not get it twisted and pretend like it's a groundbreaking value; these are 10mm scale, remember. From the website, a PHR walker is 30mm tall, or about the exact same size as a single 28mm model (remember, the 28mm is to the eyes). And then, comparing the price to the Finecast pieces is pretty damn misleading, considering most of your models will be plastic, highly customizable, and roughly $6 a model.

I realize everyone wants to compare EVERYTHING to big bad GW, but I think, on occasion, a healthy dose of perspective is in order.

Comparing to gw is fine by me because they are the most widely known and used. Even there plastic minis cost typically 4.5 or 5 pounds each so again comparable to dzc prices for resin. Also gw has economy of scale so should be cheaper due to the volumes they sell. Also the measurements for dzc mechs has been quoted to gunline. As for finecast, its a disgrace, i have resin models from priveteer press, spartan, fw etc and finecast is by far the worst resin for durability and the quality control is a joke.

I've been following this game since I saw it at Salute and, as much as I love the models, feel that the prices are a bit expensive and the barriers to entry are certainly too high.
To get started in this game, you need two starter armys and the rulebook, coming to £149 (excluding discounts from online retailers). Compared to some other options listed below it is over double the price:

GW's AoBR set at £61.50
Warmachine's Battle Box at £70
Two Malifaux gangs and rulebook at £60
Two Dystopian Wars fleets and Rulebook £81
Two Infinity Starter sets (free rules): £60

I have been pushing this game at my local club for weeks and have built up some interest, but I have already had some people say they can't afford to start it.
I will probably still get the rulebook and some models but have had to reconsider my plan to get two decent sized armies.

It's plain silly to complain over that you need "commit" 200£ to a game where you've not seen the rules. You NEED to commit 15£ for a rulebook. THEN you can commit as much, or little, monies you want.

If you wanted a really minimal/"learning the rules" force you could probably cut it down to 2 dropships rather than 3 and cut out the AA units, but that only saves you about £16 off the cost of the starter sets (for Scourge anyway) and I have no idea what it does for balance - for example without AA are the dropships nigh-invulnerable?

Scourge:
6x Warriors: £12 (for capturing objectives)
2x Invader APCs (To allow the Warriors to be brought down by Dropship)
3x Hunter Grav-Tanks: £10 (to take out the APCs)
2x Marauders: £20 (One for hunters, one for APCs)

Total: £52, so that's £16 less than the starter army, and you're missing the AA, 3rd dropship and card deck (which isn't required)

That brings the TCO for a stripped-down starter set to £119, for two sets like that and a rulebook, which all things considered isn't that bad, especially as starter sets rarely let you pick the factions

I'm not buying it cos I don't have as much of a hard on for the hobby as many of you guys, and Im sticking with the one army and system, but I have to say it looks absolutely brilliant.

I've been reading the website for a half hour and I love the fluff, and the minis are fantastic. I salute Dave for his hard work and dedication.

Ill have a few games round one of your houses one time though?

fox40 wrote:Comparing to gw is fine by me because they are the most widely known and used. Even there plastic minis cost typically 4.5 or 5 pounds each so again comparable to dzc prices for resin. Also gw has economy of scale so should be cheaper due to the volumes they sell. Also the measurements for dzc mechs has been quoted to gunline. As for finecast, its a disgrace, i have resin models from priveteer press, spartan, fw etc and finecast is by far the worst resin for durability and the quality control is a joke.

Are you sure you've worked with Finecast? There are casting problems for some, sure, but Durability? There you're just wrong. The softer resin makes it infinitely more durable than a more brittle resin. Simply the nature of the beast. Comparing it to Spartan is, IMO, silly, as those are "probably" (I don't know for certain) one piece casts that wouldn't have mould lines and should be easier to prevent bubbling BECAUSE of them being one piece.

What Privateer resins have you worked with? I've got the Storm St rider and War Wagon, and for larger pieces, they were okay. Lots of mould lines to clean, but thankfully nothing in major detail areas. Did they do any man-sized resin yet? I only have Cygnar, Trolls, and a smattering of Circle/Minions; do some of the other factions have resins? If so, I'm jealous that my factions do not.

Kaputt wrote:

fox40 wrote:
Despite how "nice" the minis are, it's hard to justify buying it at roughly $200 without even seeing a game play example.

And as I've said before...buy the rules first and hold off buying minis until you know what the game is like...not difficult to do.

I'm not sure that either view is necessarily right. If you like the minis, buy them and if the rules end up sucking, use them to play Future War Commander or somesuch. On the flip side, if you think the rules rock, but can't afford or don't like the minis go buy some MW singles and play on a budget.

Tying miniatures to rules (especially with small indie games like this) is an unnecessary limitation.

As I mentioned above, I've already got an extensive 10mm army, but if the rules get good reviews, I may pick them up.

I will at least buy the rulebook and the take it from there since i love the models, rules are only 15£ and i can live with that even if i dont like it.
The models wont be out until the 23rd of July so there will be plenty of time for additional information that is most like to show up until then.

You dont have to buy anything until then except one book that is not expensive.

Patience is a virtue...

I do my own mold making and resin casting. You choose the resin and process to do the model justice. Spartan use the appropriate resin and quality can be seen on the underside of the models and in the fine details cos there are no bubbles where you would expect them. I have a resin khador 28mm as well as resin jacks and the leader woman (cant think of her name,she is from the khador starter set) has great detail, no defects, no flash and is more durable than finecast. I also have done custom mods on forgeworld stuff. Even fw suffer with there resin but due to ageing molds rather than poor resin, although there resin can be too brittle when on long straight pieces like there hydra guns which i have 2 of. I also have worked on resin thunder wolves and many more resin bits including my own. Resin is great but use the right one for the job and use the right process. Gw have chosen the wrong resin for there process or should i say have pushed the process too far for production speed and we see the issues that causes and the poorer choice of resin the process allows.

cincydooley wrote:Are you sure you've worked with Finecast?

I have, and I've managed to snap parts with next to no effort when just cleaning them up. I've also seen models sitting in blisters with broken parts.

I've seen it put forth in one of the myriad of Finecast threads that not all models have the same properties, that some may truly well be a lot more brittle than others because the mix wasn't gotten quite right, or something to that effect. I think it's entirely possible that models you've bought have been reasonably durable and other models people have bought have snapped and broken after gentle use. With that in mind I don't think it's fair or right to accuse people of not working with the material themselves when complaining about Finecast, especially when we have more proof than not that Finecast models aren't all perfect and some pretty abysmal-looking stuff has made it out of the factory, even a year after the release when they've supposedly gotten over their "teething problems".

Anyway, I wish people would stop gaking on Dropzone Commander. Maybe you guys can't but I can sure appreciate the amount of work that went into bringing this all about. The models may be somewhat pricey considering how small they are, but the detail on all of them (except the infantry, but it's 10mm infantry what do you expect) is amazing, the scenery for the game looks just as good, and the price of what appears to be a standard-sized army is a lot more reasonable than what a standard-sized army for 40k would cost me. It's pricier than other games, Infinity and Warmachine can both be played rather cheaply as it's been said, but like many a GW fanboy has said over the years: hobbies are expensive, and you pay more for better quality. I believe DZC models will be a much higher value for my money than 40k has recently become, with the release of Finecast and the last round of price increases, and a new edition on the horizon that's guaranteed to invalidate all of our armies and force us to buy hundreds of dollars more worth of product to try and keep up. If nothing else I wish people would at least give the game a chance, instead of acting like entitled pricks and swearing they'll never buy a single model because Dave couldn't get the website up at the exact moment they wanted it to be up, or because rules info hasn't been leaked yet a mere day after the website went live.

Also: lol, nice post fox40. Hopefully it gets the point across, I hate when people suggest that every Finecast detractor is just ignorant and has never worked with resin before.

fox40 wrote:I do my own mold making and resin casting. You choose the resin and process to do the model justice. Spartan use the appropriate resin and quality can be seen on the underside of the models and in the fine details cos there are no bubbles where you would expect them. I have a resin khador 28mm as well as resin jacks and the leader woman (cant think of her name,she is from the khador starter set) has great detail, no defects, no flash and is more durable than finecast. I also have done custom mods on forgeworld stuff. Even fw suffer with there resin but due to ageing molds rather than poor resin, although there resin can be too brittle when on long straight pieces like there hydra guns which i have 2 of. I also have worked on resin thunder wolves and many more resin bits including my own. Resin is great but use the right one for the job and use the right process. Gw have chosen the wrong resin for there process or should i say have pushed the process too far for production speed and we see the issues that causes and the poorer choice of resin the process allows.

Do they not sell these resin models in the US, or are you moulding them yourself?

My point with spartan is that you're not comparing apples to apples. As someone that "does his own mold making and resin casting" would know, doing a 1-part mould is SIGNIFICANTLY easier than a 2 part mould. that's not to say there's anything wrong with doing one parters, but it certainly reduces the chance that there will be problem. I mean, you can ensure that there are no bubbles with a one part cast pretty simply with a piece of plexi and a $50 vaccum tub from Harbor Freight.

I think the problems that occur with finecast are more a product of the production speed, as you said, and not the material. The material is wonderful when the model is done correctly.

Besides, I think you're mistaking. I'm not "gakking" on DZC at all; I think the minis are nice, but I think when comparing them to GW models one requires a bit of perspective, at least in terms of model size.

While it has merit discussing it, since the DzC resin looks really great, I wish we could keep talking about it for its' own sake, rather than compared to GW / Finecast.

Most, if not only, because that discussion can't even take place yet. There's only a few people posting here with direct knowledge of the comparison, one of whom posted several photos and a video. I've quoted those below for those who missed it.

Other than that solid information (see below), I would personally love to get back to talking about DzC... and Only DzC . There's so much to consider with rules/terrain/etc, the resin is only a small piece of the news going on here.

Divine_Tyranny wrote:Heres a series of pics from todays messing about with painted sprue, results were suprising!;

Spoiler:

Hawk wargames sprue sprayed black


First bend, no paint damage


Added some colour, and a veriety of thicknesses of paint in different places


Bending commences! No paint damage, though I do accidently break the unpainted part of it


Twisted and bent around again, still no paint damage.


Re-straightened out, paint seems fine, even the line highlight on the edge.


Finally the peice breaks as I turn it into a corkscrew, still no paint damage though!

I dont know what this stuff is, but it makes me physically angry as GW for finecast, if the price is anything like GWs then I may have to punch a baby.

Divine_Tyranny wrote:I'm afraid i'm too dumb to know how to embed a video, so heres a link to a resin stress test on an actual model.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=440215979331015

Sidstyler wrote:
Anyway, I wish people would stop gaking on Dropzone Commander. Maybe you guys can't but I can sure appreciate the amount of work that went into bringing this all about. The models may be somewhat pricey considering how small they are, but the detail on all of them (except the infantry, but it's 10mm infantry what do you expect) is amazing, the scenery for the game looks just as good, and the price of what appears to be a standard-sized army is a lot more reasonable than what a standard-sized army for 40k would cost me. It's pricier than other games, Infinity and Warmachine can both be played rather cheaply as it's been said, but like many a GW fanboy has said over the years: hobbies are expensive, and you pay more for better quality. I believe DZC models will be a much higher value for my money than 40k has recently become, with the release of Finecast and the last round of price increases, and a new edition on the horizon that's guaranteed to invalidate all of our armies and force us to buy hundreds of dollars more worth of product to try and keep up. If nothing else I wish people would at least give the game a chance, instead of acting like entitled pricks and swearing they'll never buy a single model because Dave couldn't get the website up at the exact moment they wanted it to be up, or because rules info hasn't been leaked yet a mere day after the website went live.

Excellent well said Sidstyler. I'd have said the same but you were there first.

I'm sure the reviews will be out soon. If you don't want to straight up buy the rules this is probably your next best thing. That's what I'm waiting PATIENTLY for.

Also I do sympathies with those looking for an easy starter. Seen as all the competitors have a reasonably priced starter could it be possible that hawk wargames do the same, pretty please?

Even if it is only two stripped back starters of any two of the factions at a reduced price say £80. Maybe PHR and Shaltari (or for more evil Scorge)

Phr walkers are the same size as a 28mm figure and as has been said the walkers are half the price of a finecast figure. The price to me is reasonable, not cheap but not over priced.
My favourite thing with dzc is the fact that the scaling is right, i cant wait to magnetize them to death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Excellent well said Sidstyler. I'd have said the same but you were there first.

I'm sure the reviews will be out soon. If you don't want to straight up buy the rules this is probably your next best thing. That's what I'm waiting PATIENTLY for.

Also I do sympathies with those looking for an easy starter. Seen as all the competitors have a reasonably priced starter could it be possible that hawk wargames do the same, pretty please?

Even if it is only two stripped back starters of any of the two factions at a reduced price say £80. Maybe PHR and Shaltari (or for more evil Scorge)

Seriously guys - stay on topic.

MetalOxide wrote:

I think dave at dropzone has shown what 1 guy can do and put gw to shame. there prices are a joke.

Haha Do you mind if I use this as my sig?

I think dave has shown that theres plenty of material to go around for jokes. GW is ludicrously overpriced, this isn't particularly unfunny itself. If the games total monetary contribution for a varied force is lower than it's still viable within it's price point, but jumping through hoops to pretend it's "cheap" isn't gonna go very far. I'd be interested to know what the total cost is for both an average and largescale battle within the system as that's the true differentiating point between games as games. It could be that DC slides in next to warmachine for overall value, which gives it some good legs to stand on, even if individual models seem outrageously pricey.

Selling an entire game as single resin casts though will make DZ look pretty expensive in the end. Both GW and Privateer sell infantry boxes that put blistered models to shame in price point. Blisters shouldn't be the "standard" as even GW doesn't approach its own blister costs in total cost per model in a standard army.

If DZG is to be compared to other products priceranges the best place to start is Spartan Games.

Both are UK based, Dave Lewis worked for Spartan as a sculptor, they are both small new companies dealing almost exclusively with resin.

from the sizes shown the prices are broadly similar, in size and quality, though by all accounts so far Hawk has a better material quality than Spartan.

I think the prices fair, however with the presence of large dropships roughly equally the size of their transport assets only half the force you buy is actually front line fieldable.

To some extent its like marketing Battletech with a Union dropship for every company or demanding that SM have a full capacity of Thunderhawks or drop pods for all non teleportable assets.

Yes the transports play an active role, but I will not be surprised is some players buy more tanks and represent the dropships with counters, or have a single dropship stand in for a squadron of them carrying 20 or so combat units.

that way people can have the full scale of gaming.

yes the dropships look great, but they may actually get in the way of play and simplt cost too much. In small games yes. But if i wanted to dump two dozen tanks on the table I would wanr one Albatross or Condior per squadron and a counter saying how many dropships remain out of the squadron, then spend more time money and effort on the fighting units.

Kaputt wrote:It's plain silly to complain over that you need "commit" 200£ to a game where you've not seen the rules. You NEED to commit 15£ for a rulebook. THEN you can commit as much, or little, monies you want.

You keep drilling this point home and I don't think you understand why everyone isn't rushing to agree with you.

This game currently has no following. There are no pick up games, no tournaments, no convention tables, nothing.

Buying the rulebook to this as a stand alone could very well be a wasted 35$ if you don't like the rules. DZC is a newguy. They SHOULD have released their rules free to drive mini sales. The rumored rules are the only thing holding me and my store back from buying in, and there's no way I'm going to purchase a 35 dollar book just so I can decide whether or not to buy 200 dollars worth of models. If there's no leaked PDF out there before the drop-dead preorder date, then I won't be buying and this will be one more system that I might have gotten into.