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Wait a few weeks and there should be rules info and bat reps... hopefully he'll get out a quickstarter set of rules on the webpage or the like, too.

Thunderfrog wrote:

Kaputt wrote:It's plain silly to complain over that you need "commit" 200£ to a game where you've not seen the rules. You NEED to commit 15£ for a rulebook. THEN you can commit as much, or little, monies you want.

You keep drilling this point home and I don't think you understand why everyone isn't rushing to agree with you.

This game currently has no following. There are no pick up games, no tournaments, no convention tables, nothing.

Buying the rulebook to this as a stand alone could very well be a wasted 35$ if you don't like the rules. DZC is a newguy. They SHOULD have released their rules free to drive mini sales. The rumored rules are the only thing holding me and my store back from buying in, and there's no way I'm going to purchase a 35 dollar book just so I can decide whether or not to buy 200 dollars worth of models. If there's no leaked PDF out there before the drop-dead preorder date, then I won't be buying and this will be one more system that I might have gotten into.

Then how did 40k get so big? Did they not start off similar? No following, no pick up games, no batreps, no tournaments, no conventions etc right?

Lysenis wrote:
Then how did 40k get so big? Did they not start off similar? No following, no pick up games, no batreps, no tournaments, no conventions etc right?

A network of stores owned by the company that created it and a previously successful miniatures game (Warhammer)

Cyporiean wrote:

Lysenis wrote:
Then how did 40k get so big? Did they not start off similar? No following, no pick up games, no batreps, no tournaments, no conventions etc right?

A network of stores owned by the company that created it and a previously successful miniatures game (Warhammer)

Then lets rework the question to Warhammer? Better yet how did ANY game that is decent now get started? And how did they get big? Think on this really because if your the one complaining about the lack of rules then you are really not looking at the game but at a tournament some time down the road in the future.

Right now, this game looks amazing, and since it looks amazing I highly DOUBT that Dave would drop the ball on the rules when he is trying so hard to be good at it all.

Lysenis wrote:

Cyporiean wrote:

Lysenis wrote:
Then how did 40k get so big? Did they not start off similar? No following, no pick up games, no batreps, no tournaments, no conventions etc right?

A network of stores owned by the company that created it and a previously successful miniatures game (Warhammer)

Then lets rework the question to Warhammer? Better yet how did ANY game that is decent now get started? And how did they get big? Think on this really because if your the one complaining about the lack of rules then you are really not looking at the game but at a tournament some time down the road in the future.

Right now, this game looks amazing, and since it looks amazing I highly DOUBT that Dave would drop the ball on the rules when he is trying so hard to be good at it all.

Privateer press hit the number two spot with a rulebook that wasn't free. Spartan games doesn't release it's rules for free. Free rules are more about a method of content dristribution and are an issue of scale. Companies with the capacity to charge for their rules usually do.

Privateer did also have a loyal fanbase before Warmachine was ever talked about with their Iron Kingdoms sourcebooks for D&D.

I'm still hopeful for free "starter rules" on the webpage or the like. But we'll see

mikhaila is also tossing in the rulebook for free to folks who order a starter set from him (he posted about it, here).

Cyporiean wrote:Privateer did also have a loyal fanbase before Warmachine was ever talked about with their Iron Kingdoms sourcebooks for D&D.

I'd question how much that mattered. I played warmachine when it launched and the overlap between groups seemed no existent. That's anecdotal though.

Thunderfrog wrote:. They SHOULD have released their rules free to drive mini sales. The rumored rules are the only thing holding me and my store back from buying in, and there's no way I'm going to purchase a 35 dollar book just so I can decide whether or not to buy 200 dollars worth of models. If there's no leaked PDF out there before the drop-dead preorder date, then I won't be buying and this will be one more system that I might have gotten into.

Maybe a leaked peak or starer rules, but not the whole thing. Not many companies can afford to put together a polished, well laid out and well presented rules book without making it pay. Also, remember that many companies make money off of rules.

Still, I think it's very likely the rules will be released in some begginer, partial or teaser form before they come up for sale.

Lysenis wrote:

Then how did 40k get so big? Did they not start off similar? No following, no pick up games, no batreps, no tournaments, no conventions etc right?

Thunderfrog wrote:

Kaputt wrote:It's plain silly to complain over that you need "commit" 200£ to a game where you've not seen the rules. You NEED to commit 15£ for a rulebook. THEN you can commit as much, or little, monies you want.

You keep drilling this point home and I don't think you understand why everyone isn't rushing to agree with you.

This game currently has no following. There are no pick up games, no tournaments, no convention tables, nothing.

Buying the rulebook to this as a stand alone could very well be a wasted 35$ if you don't like the rules. DZC is a newguy. They SHOULD have released their rules free to drive mini sales. The rumored rules are the only thing holding me and my store back from buying in, and there's no way I'm going to purchase a 35 dollar book just so I can decide whether or not to buy 200 dollars worth of models. If there's no leaked PDF out there before the drop-dead preorder date, then I won't be buying and this will be one more system that I might have gotten into.

Thank you. I thought like I was taking crazy pills for a second.

Likening this game to 40k, which grew over 25 years and began when there were far fewer established wargaming countries also seems silly.

I think the privateer comparison is apropos, but remember that Warmachine and Hordes both have very affordable starter boxes that come with quickstart rules and were also being demoed plenty when they were launched. Right now, the majority of us have NO IDEA how this game works, how many models I need to play, etc.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some sort of quickstart rules to at least entice us....

Orlanth wrote:

Lysenis wrote:

Then how did 40k get so big? Did they not start off similar? No following, no pick up games, no batreps, no tournaments, no conventions etc right?

No market saturation at the time, so early games build a solid market share. Of which GW was by far the biggest.

back in the 80's there were some pen and paper RPG's and a very small handful of fantasy and SF miniatures companies, of which none except Gw did any large miniatures ranges with exception of miniatures for D&D games.
FASA was big then and that was about that, and as you look you see Battletech is still going strong, a lot stronger than its rather weak rules system deserves.

They didnt.

Closest thing to free rules was rules in a boxset. FASA was big on that, providing rules, map and cardstock miniatures in the game box.
Battletech Renegade Legion etc are all miniatures games, the boxsets were loss leaders, but by adding other stuff it offset charging just for the rules and background.

I think we've all been spoiled by the instant gratification offered by the internet. There was a time when we'd have seen a game like this in a shop and given it a chance - blind - based on how cool it looked. Now, we've got thousands of photographs of cool models to feast our eyes on but we're not satisfied till we can see a full PDF of the rules to decide whether or not this guy's effort is worth the money.

I'm seeing similar comments over rules from folks on boardgame geek over sedition wars but in that case I think they really do sound like spoiled kids: the box is already full of cool miniatures, take a chance that the rules will live up to the models!

For Dropzone Commander, personally I'm still on the fence, but it ain't the lack of rules info that's holding me back (can hardly be WORSE than 40k's rules); it's considerations of time (and money) that I'd need to invest in a new system.

a full .pdf?

Thats normally only possible via naughty websites,

Unless Hawk sees fit to produce an online copy and sells the hardcopy just for players who prefer a hard rulebook to go with their armies. It would make a lot of sense to do it that way.

I really don't think I deserve the rules for free. I can't expect the rules from a board game for free. I can't expect rules for an RPG for free. Why should I expect a wargame's rules for free. They took time and energy to create their rules, if they don't want to profit off of their time, that's fine. That's not my place to demand handouts.

Orlanth wrote:a full .pdf?

What would be the use of a partial pdf, or a teaser pdf? People who want to see the rules will surely want to see ALL of them; how could they make a truly informed decision about the rules with just a sample?

Surtur wrote:I really don't think I deserve the rules for free. I can't expect the rules from a board game for free. I can't expect rules for an RPG for free. Why should I expect a wargame's rules for free. They took time and energy to create their rules, if they don't want to profit off of their time, that's fine. That's not my place to demand handouts.

Actually, I think many board games offer free rules downloads these days. I have personally downloaded Axis and Allies rules as well as rules for the Game of Thrones boardgame. Those were the only ones I ever searched for, and I had a 100% success rate of finding them.

Even before the internet, you could certainly expect to learn the rules of a game for free, if not actually possess a cop of the rules. Demo games and convention tables were your point of entry. Now the internet can offer rulesets directly to potential players. You shouldn't look at it as a loss, or as them giving away something for free; rules aren't were they make their money -- miniatures are. Do you think they would rather sell 10 rulebooks and 8 starter armies, or give away 50 rulebooks for free and sell 20 starter armies?

Then as Surtur says it denies Hawk wargames a sale.

On the other hand offering the rules for free gives people a chance to proliferate them review them and get drawn into the game.

There are pros and cons to each method.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Altruizine wrote:
Do you think they would rather sell 10 rulebooks and 8 starter armies, or give away 50 rulebooks for free and sell 20 starter armies?

I don't know about the ratios but according to managers at my local Gw books are expensive because paper and printing is expensive. The profit margins are less than for boxsets.

Using the figures you show you are effectively saying you have ten people interested in the game enough to buy a rulebook. of those ten eight buy the game.
However if the rulebook was free download fifty people would download it and from that you convert twenty into customers.

The latter is more important as those twenty or eight customers will have armies, which can tempt more people in, proliferate larger gaming group network and will directly pay more into the hobby if they expand their armies. The other two or thirty who neverr buy a starter will likely never buy any miniatures.

Altruizine wrote:

Surtur wrote:I really don't think I deserve the rules for free. I can't expect the rules from a board game for free. I can't expect rules for an RPG for free. Why should I expect a wargame's rules for free. They took time and energy to create their rules, if they don't want to profit off of their time, that's fine. That's not my place to demand handouts.

Actually, I think many board games offer free rules downloads these days. I have personally downloaded Axis and Allies rules as well as rules for the Game of Thrones boardgame. Those were the only ones I ever searched for, and I had a 100% success rate of finding them.

Even before the internet, you could certainly expect to learn the rules of a game for free, if not actually possess a cop of the rules. Demo games and convention tables were your point of entry. Now the internet can offer rulesets directly to potential players. You shouldn't look at it as a loss, or as them giving away something for free; rules aren't were they make their money -- miniatures are. Do you think they would rather sell 10 rulebooks and 8 starter armies, or give away 50 rulebooks for free and sell 20 starter armies?

To be fair, usually learning rules for a game was from a friend. Said friend would have had to take a chance and throw some money down. Granted, today's consumer is more unwilling to part with green which encourages release of free rules to entice them in. But many forms of entertainment don't have free tests. You can't get a free viewing of a movie to decide whether or not to buy the ticket. You can't parasail for free the first time. Gotta buy or rent skis. Gotta pay for net or cable to see shows and then you pay by watching commercials. Previews are not a rule, they are an exception.

Well, I just lost all interest after seeing the prices. Seems to cost about twice as much as any comparable minis (like Dystopian Wars, or even 15mm stuff)

I turned onto the website saw the deal for PHR £140, then ordered that one. If'd seen the rules i'd probably go for the £250 one. I didn't think it seemed overpriced.

I'm know taking a risk not knowing the rules but I just went with it going with my gut feeling. You don't all have to take risks yourselves. The rulebook will be out next month and you could look then.

Also I think Dave is going to be on facebook chat to answer questions about the game today from 9am till 9pm.

You could even wait till next year to do it then you'd know if it was worth playing or not.

Something just made me want this game. The maker came across well in interviews, he seems to think the sameway as I do about trying to make things realistic in wargames. I feel he's taken an enormous financial risk making this stuff and I repect that hugely.

Lots of guys at my LGS are interested especially the owner. I know 6 other people that are getting the game so I know I'll have people to play the game with. PHR seems to be the most wanted army it seems.
We've got Hawk Wargames coming to our shop next month on the 28th during the open day to demo the game, people in the UK near Colchester who are interested should come down (the shop's called 4TK)

I'm also annoyed at GW and just feel like a change. So maybe this is like dating another person to make them jealous

Plus I think its exciting, having a chance to be involved at the very beggining of a brand new gaming system. Possibly helping to shape it in the future and be taken along on a journey.

From the livechat:

"In any case, we'll be publishing 'chunks' of the rules on the download section soon, so you'll be able to get a feel for the writing and rules style etc + see how certain mechanics work"

D6 based game, occasional D3 rolls

"We have a 5th race and new units planned already, but that won't be for a while (as you say - getting ahead of ourselves a bit here, got enough on our plates for the moment!) We'd like to expand the game for years to come, so there will certainly be much more to sink your teeth into!"

"also, any additional units will get free stat lines available online as soon as they're released :-)"

I find it hilarious how the community has turned on this game, and it's not even out yet. Heaven forbid if the rules aren't absolutely flawless, or y'all are going to tear it apart like a wasps' nest..

obsidianaura wrote:
I'm also annoyed at GW and just feel like a change. So maybe this is like dating another person to make them jealous

Haha, just wait we will see. Maybe GW has been cheating on us all along, HHHobby companies are all b******s.

I don't really see what all the fuss over this is, it all looks great to me and the prices seem to be a little cheaper than GW finecast, for a vastly-superior material - When you get a clean resin cast done properly, it is extremely nice.

Fact is, 10mm sci-fi market is pretty much non-existent currently after GW decided to abandon Epic.

A new game to fill the void that will actually be supported is more than welcome.

While the game probably isn't my cup of tea (prefer 28mm or 6mm, not all that interested in anything in-between), I can see why plenty of people are looking forward to it.

Scourge models look a bit crap (especially the "shelving cabinet" dropships and shelf-tanks to go with it), but the other three races are great.

I thought Epic was 6mm?

Does anyone know who makes the buildings that they've been using for terrain in the pics?


To me they look like 15mm scaled buildings rather than 6mm. I'd be interested in getting some if I can figure out who makes them and what scale they are.

@Charax - Yeah, it is. I probably should have said "small-scale sci-fi" instead, where there isn't a whole lot of stuff around, other than Exodus Wars.

There's plenty of 6mm stuff around.